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Old 11-24-2012, 02:14 PM   #1
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Endurance training and LCHF

I've been eating LCHF for 3-4 months and have somewhat easily/systematically lost 17 pounds. I am also training for my first marathon, this May 2013. I am finally fully keto-adapted and have noticed a huge difference in the ease of my long runs!!!!

However, since I've increased the duration of my long runs, (8,10,12 miles) I've noticed that my weight loss has stalled. Granted I only have 3-5lbs till my vanity weight goal (I'm 5' 11" and 152lbs- goal is 148.8, that would make comfortable size 8) but I have been scarily consistent w/ weight loss.

Now to be fair, my eating hasn't been as clean the last 4-5 weeks. Certainly, a bit of carb creep, but nothing major, for sure- I'm still tracking every day. Also, I changed birth control pills last month.... ?? Relevant?

But I'm assuming its running related as well, because I am not really compensating for the long run days. Its not intentional, more I literally am not hungry on the days that I have a long run- it pains me to eat But I'm concerned that the lack of compensating is hurting my body.

Example: yesterday was 12 miles, so roughly 1200-1300 calories burned....and I ate 1700 calories (75g protein; 40g carb (net); 131g fat). It was our T-day yesterday, hence why the carbs were higher. But, that is a fairly typical day for me, just higher on carbs....

What should I do w/ my macros to compensate for the huge calorie burn? I'm assuming I have to do something.....

THANK YOU! I appreciate the advice!!! I know there aren't a lot of LCHF runners out there, but wondering if anyone has a best guess anyway?

Laura
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:00 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarlaB View Post
I've been eating LCHF for 3-4 months and have somewhat easily/systematically lost 17 pounds. I am also training for my first marathon, this May 2013. I am finally fully keto-adapted and have noticed a huge difference in the ease of my long runs!!!!
Congratulations on the loss and keto adaptation!

Quote:
However, since I've increased the duration of my long runs, (8,10,12 miles) I've noticed that my weight loss has stalled. Granted I only have 3-5lbs till my vanity weight goal (I'm 5' 11" and 152lbs- goal is 148.8, that would make comfortable size 8) but I have been scarily consistent w/ weight loss.

Now to be fair, my eating hasn't been as clean the last 4-5 weeks. Certainly, a bit of carb creep, but nothing major, for sure- I'm still tracking every day. Also, I changed birth control pills last month.... ?? Relevant?
I think that all of the bolded items are relevant. How long has it been since you increased your runs? Are you testing blood ketones? Have the levels of ketones changed with the changes that you have made? How long has it been since you've lost weight.

It also may just be a case of sticking with what you've been doing while realizing that the last few vanity pounds can be very slow to come off. Or...

Quote:
But I'm assuming its running related as well, because I am not really compensating for the long run days. Its not intentional, more I literally am not hungry on the days that I have a long run- it pains me to eat But I'm concerned that the lack of compensating is hurting my body.

Example: yesterday was 12 miles, so roughly 1200-1300 calories burned....and I ate 1700 calories (75g protein; 40g carb (net); 131g fat). It was our T-day yesterday, hence why the carbs were higher. But, that is a fairly typical day for me, just higher on carbs....

What should I do w/ my macros to compensate for the huge calorie burn? I'm assuming I have to do something.....

THANK YOU! I appreciate the advice!!! I know there aren't a lot of LCHF runners out there, but wondering if anyone has a best guess anyway?
I'm not an endurance athlete, but if you feel that you aren't eating enough then you could try increasing your fat slowly to see if that makes a difference. If you metabolism is slowing down from the increased exercise combined with dieting then you have to find the "sweet spot" where you are eating enough to keep your metabolism working while staying in a calorie deficit to induce weight-loss. Make changes slowly and wait a week or two to see what the effects of your changes are.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:10 PM   #3
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Hi again Laura!

This was posted on another thread by Phillip:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NKSL55 View Post

Well, I just watched a 'low carb cruise' youtube video of Jeff Volek's talk. In the fifth part, he talks about while endurance training (eg, running) tends to make the body more efficient so that it is burning less fuel.
I haven't seen the video, but I wonder if increased efficiency from running comes in to play?

Hopefully someone with more experience in NK and endurance training will chime in here.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:48 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarlaB View Post
I've been eating LCHF for 3-4 months and have somewhat easily/systematically lost 17 pounds. I am also training for my first marathon, this May 2013. I am finally fully keto-adapted and have noticed a huge difference in the ease of my long runs!!!!

However, since I've increased the duration of my long runs, (8,10,12 miles) I've noticed that my weight loss has stalled. Granted I only have 3-5lbs till my vanity weight goal (I'm 5' 11" and 152lbs- goal is 148.8, that would make comfortable size 8) but I have been scarily consistent w/ weight loss.

Now to be fair, my eating hasn't been as clean the last 4-5 weeks. Certainly, a bit of carb creep, but nothing major, for sure- I'm still tracking every day. Also, I changed birth control pills last month.... ?? Relevant?

But I'm assuming its running related as well, because I am not really compensating for the long run days. Its not intentional, more I literally am not hungry on the days that I have a long run- it pains me to eat But I'm concerned that the lack of compensating is hurting my body.

Example: yesterday was 12 miles, so roughly 1200-1300 calories burned....and I ate 1700 calories (75g protein; 40g carb (net); 131g fat). It was our T-day yesterday, hence why the carbs were higher. But, that is a fairly typical day for me, just higher on carbs....

What should I do w/ my macros to compensate for the huge calorie burn? I'm assuming I have to do something.....

THANK YOU! I appreciate the advice!!! I know there aren't a lot of LCHF runners out there, but wondering if anyone has a best guess anyway?

Laura
It looks like you are starving yourself while stressing the heck out of your body. Eat more protein and mono/sat fats. Like, 700 cals more especially on long run days. Fat is very calorie dense so it is easy to push cals up with it even if you aren't particularly hungry.
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarlaB View Post
I've been eating LCHF for 3-4 months and have somewhat easily/systematically lost 17 pounds. I am also training for my first marathon, this May 2013. I am finally fully keto-adapted and have noticed a huge difference in the ease of my long runs!!!!
Interesting post. I am just 10 days into LCHF and am towards the end of my training for my first stand alone marathon (previous marathon was the last leg of a full Ironman triathlon). How long did it take before your runs felt strong again?

My last really long run was only three days in. It was 20 miles and I felt great for 19, then totally bonked (complete glycogen depletion) and walked the last mile. I am currently tapering and my long run yesterday (12 miles) felt very sluggish and my performance was bad. In fact, my performance on my short run (4 miles) on Saturday was equally bad. I started this process with the understanding that it would take 2-3 weeks to adapt. My race is in 13 days and there is no going back now. I started this transition after reading Phinney's performance book. I feel like I am definitely on the right track, but I am concerned I may not have enough time to adapt to fat/ketone burning as my primary fuel source.

Do you eat/drink anything on your long runs? In the past, I would take a gel (100 kcal pure glucose) every 5 miles or so (more frequently for full Ironman). The one question I have not found an answer to is whether, after full adaptation, I can expect to do an entire marathon with no glucose supplementation. My plan right now is to stay very LC until race day to adapt as much a possible and then supplement during the race with 100kcal/5 miles as usual. Unfortunately, there is no time for experimentation and precious little information about LCHF race fueling strategies on the net that I can find.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarlaB View Post
However, since I've increased the duration of my long runs, (8,10,12 miles) I've noticed that my weight loss has stalled. Granted I only have 3-5lbs till my vanity weight goal (I'm 5' 11" and 152lbs- goal is 148.8, that would make comfortable size 8) but I have been scarily consistent w/ weight loss.
I'm down 120 lbs from my high weight in 2010. I was not doing LC at all, just a balanced blend of complex carbs, protein and fat, but a significant caloric deficit. In 2011 I took up triathlon and then started training for a full Ironman race. I ended up gaining about 15 lbs during my 9 months of training, which really irritated me. That said, it is clear to me that I achieved a significant body composition change, but I am still plagued with some residual flab. I have switched to LCHF to try and break through.

Anyway, good luck with your training.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
It looks like you are starving yourself while stressing the heck out of your body. Eat more protein and mono/sat fats. Like, 700 cals more especially on long run days. Fat is very calorie dense so it is easy to push cals up with it even if you aren't particularly hungry.

Agreed that I need to eat more- just not exactly sure what or when. My GI issues prevent me from being about to eat more the day of the run- I'm literally choking down food, but my appetite increases the 1-2 days after, and generally I just go w/ that....
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
Hi again Laura!

This was posted on another thread by Phillip:


I haven't seen the video, but I wonder if increased efficiency from running comes in to play?

Hopefully someone with more experience in NK and endurance training will chime in here.
Thanks for passing that along- I'm going to google some videos and likely reread my endurance training book....I'm sure they outlined it but it didn't stick.

Thanks!
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:44 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by panabax View Post
Interesting post. I am just 10 days into LCHF and am towards the end of my training for my first stand alone marathon (previous marathon was the last leg of a full Ironman triathlon). How long did it take before your runs felt strong again?

My last really long run was only three days in. It was 20 miles and I felt great for 19, then totally bonked (complete glycogen depletion) and walked the last mile. I am currently tapering and my long run yesterday (12 miles) felt very sluggish and my performance was bad. In fact, my performance on my short run (4 miles) on Saturday was equally bad. I started this process with the understanding that it would take 2-3 weeks to adapt. My race is in 13 days and there is no going back now. I started this transition after reading Phinney's performance book. I feel like I am definitely on the right track, but I am concerned I may not have enough time to adapt to fat/ketone burning as my primary fuel source.

Do you eat/drink anything on your long runs? In the past, I would take a gel (100 kcal pure glucose) every 5 miles or so (more frequently for full Ironman). The one question I have not found an answer to is whether, after full adaptation, I can expect to do an entire marathon with no glucose supplementation. My plan right now is to stay very LC until race day to adapt as much a possible and then supplement during the race with 100kcal/5 miles as usual. Unfortunately, there is no time for experimentation and precious little information about LCHF race fueling strategies on the net that I can find.

I'll let you know how it goes.



I'm down 120 lbs from my high weight in 2010. I was not doing LC at all, just a balanced blend of complex carbs, protein and fat, but a significant caloric deficit. In 2011 I took up triathlon and then started training for a full Ironman race. I ended up gaining about 15 lbs during my 9 months of training, which really irritated me. That said, it is clear to me that I achieved a significant body composition change, but I am still plagued with some residual flab. I have switched to LCHF to try and break through.

Anyway, good luck with your training.

Honestly, it took me 8-10 WEEKS! I know thats not what you want to hear- I sure wouldn't so close to the race.... Really, I thought it would be so much quicker- I mean I felt 'adapted' for day to day life but it took much longer for me to see that fluidity & consistency return for my running. Yes, had good runs, but it was hit and miss until I felt like I fully adapted. I'd never know how my body would respond to the training runs- whether speed, long etc. And I hated that inconsistency- pretty hard to train. And frankly, I was so frustrated I nearly gave up.

But I"m soooo glad I didn't. One day I went for a 4-5 mile run and did 10- and could have kept going other than I didn't want to increase too much/too soon (even though my longest run to that point had only been 6).

Given that I have GI issues, I eat & drink as little as possible during long runs. I'm in Colorado so hydration is tricky- but I always do water- just enough. But even at sea level I've never had more than a gel every hour or maybe a jelly bean every mile for the 10-12 milers. This is my first marathon, so my greatest distance to date is only 13.1, but a couple of times.

I SO agree- there is so little research and info out there on fueling for LCHF- I've toyed with using sweet potatos or bananas like Paleo people do, but really don't want ANY sugar. I've thought about nuts & dark chocolate trail mix or a fudge dream thing (very high fat, but it has dairy) but haven't tried any of these....

My preference would be to run 26.2 with only water...in theory it should work. Body is burning fat, just stay hydrated and the supply is endless, right?

I feel like its a lot of making it up as you go along. My overall health is primary, running secondary and weight loss and whole other story....I don't want to be actively training AND trying to lose weight though, I know that. One thing at a time...

Good luck! Let me know how it goes, for sure!
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:49 PM   #9
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By the way, I was down a pound today- so go figure. All I know is that something disrupted the consistent weight loss- not sure what it was, or why it changed, but now everything seems to be moving forward, I'm good.

For what its worth to other runners- I have 2 other friends who have done this adaptation and its been different for all of us. For all of us, the hit & miss 'good run' was the biggest issues other than overall lack of energy that everyone experiences. My gut tells me to just proceed with caution in this new territory of LowCarb/High Fat while distance running. Runners can be very Type A and driven, LOL, so I have to really stay in tune w/ my body- not just dictate the terms.... I'd reallllly love to run my marathon still eating LCHF, but will have to see...
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:23 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by LarlaB View Post
By the way, I was down a pound today- so go figure. All I know is that something disrupted the consistent weight loss- not sure what it was, or why it changed, but now everything seems to be moving forward, I'm good.
That's great news! I'm sure if you stick to what you've been doing all along you'll get to your goal. Patience and persistence are helpful when you're working on those last few pounds.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarlaB View Post
My preference would be to run 26.2 with only water...in theory it should work. Body is burning fat, just stay hydrated and the supply is endless, right?
Well, my understanding from my high carb experience doing Ironman and my take away from Phinney's performance book is it is still all about fuel partitioning. That is, at any given point in time, we are burning both fat and glucose, the question is at what ratio. The high carb orthodoxy says that there is an upper limit to how much fat you can burn over a given period of time, or stated differently, there is a limit to how fast you can go on mostly fat. Therefore, the faster you go, the more glycogen you burn for any given distance. Once the glycogen is gone, you are reduced to a walk. Anything more and you get dizzy and could pass out. It is the Bonk. I have experienced it and it is no fun.

According to Phinney's book, ketoadaptation causes a shift in the fuel partitioning greatly increasing the rate of fat oxidation (average oxidation rate among ketoadapted trained cyclists was 90g/hour or 810 cal/hour). Presumably, these athletes are still burning glucose, just at a MUCH lower burn rate. Theoretically, the much lower burn rate could make up for the reduced glycogen storage and the elimination of calorie supplementation during the race. In any event, if calories are needed, they are ONLY needed in the form of glucose since, as you say, there is an effectively infinite supply of fatty acids. Also, you do not experience an insulin response when you ingest sugar during exercise. Rather, the glucose simply passes through your blood stream and directly into your muscles/brain where it is immediately metabolized for energy.

I feel as though my glycogen stores are completely exhausted. I am wondering if the keto-adaptation process is a multi-part process that goes something like this:

1. Restriction of dietary carbs - body utilizes its sugar reserves (gylcogen)
2. Glycogen depletion - you feel like crapola - I get tired walking up the stairs
3. Body begins the process of adjusting fuel partition to prefer fats/ketones and preserve glucose
4. Small amounts of dietary glucose are diverted to glycogen stores to replenish glucose stores which are now the secondary fuel
5. Upon glycogen replenishment, you are keto-adapted

It's fat that powers your muscles when you are running a marathon, but it is glycogen that gets you to the top of the stairs (immediate, short burst energy needs).

Just a theory, but it makes sense to me. Anyway, I still feel like crap so I bagged my short run today. I am going to take it very easy for the next two weeks. All my real millage is already done. Hopefully I will have some energy by Sunday to go out and do 8 miles. I may try and contact Phinney and see if he can offer any advice.

Good luck with your training. I will keep you posted on my progress.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panabax View Post
Well, my understanding from my high carb experience doing Ironman and my take away from Phinney's performance book is it is still all about fuel partitioning. That is, at any given point in time, we are burning both fat and glucose, the question is at what ratio. The high carb orthodoxy says that there is an upper limit to how much fat you can burn over a given period of time, or stated differently, there is a limit to how fast you can go on mostly fat. Therefore, the faster you go, the more glycogen you burn for any given distance. Once the glycogen is gone, you are reduced to a walk. Anything more and you get dizzy and could pass out. It is the Bonk. I have experienced it and it is no fun.

According to Phinney's book, ketoadaptation causes a shift in the fuel partitioning greatly increasing the rate of fat oxidation (average oxidation rate among ketoadapted trained cyclists was 90g/hour or 810 cal/hour). Presumably, these athletes are still burning glucose, just at a MUCH lower burn rate. Theoretically, the much lower burn rate could make up for the reduced glycogen storage and the elimination of calorie supplementation during the race. In any event, if calories are needed, they are ONLY needed in the form of glucose since, as you say, there is an effectively infinite supply of fatty acids. Also, you do not experience an insulin response when you ingest sugar during exercise. Rather, the glucose simply passes through your blood stream and directly into your muscles/brain where it is immediately metabolized for energy.

I feel as though my glycogen stores are completely exhausted. I am wondering if the keto-adaptation process is a multi-part process that goes something like this:

1. Restriction of dietary carbs - body utilizes its sugar reserves (gylcogen)
2. Glycogen depletion - you feel like crapola - I get tired walking up the stairs
3. Body begins the process of adjusting fuel partition to prefer fats/ketones and preserve glucose
4. Small amounts of dietary glucose are diverted to glycogen stores to replenish glucose stores which are now the secondary fuel
5. Upon glycogen replenishment, you are keto-adapted

It's fat that powers your muscles when you are running a marathon, but it is glycogen that gets you to the top of the stairs (immediate, short burst energy needs).

Just a theory, but it makes sense to me. Anyway, I still feel like crap so I bagged my short run today. I am going to take it very easy for the next two weeks. All my real millage is already done. Hopefully I will have some energy by Sunday to go out and do 8 miles. I may try and contact Phinney and see if he can offer any advice.

Good luck with your training. I will keep you posted on my progress.
My experience lines up w/ your multi-part process... I felt adapted for living long before adapted for running.

Yes, I realize I grossly over simplified things by saying 'fat for fuel' should work...and agree w/ your statements. Its not an either/or of fat or glucose, but rather ratios.

My plan for 26.2 this go round is to finish- I can work on faster, stronger, better next time. . So while eating fat for fuel during a long run is completely unnecessary from an energy perspective, mentally, I think it helps.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
Hi again Laura!

This was posted on another thread by Phillip:


I haven't seen the video, but I wonder if increased efficiency from running comes in to play?

Hopefully someone with more experience in NK and endurance training will chime in here.
Volek really only alludes to a study he was involved in. I found an abstract online of a talk at a FASEB meeting. Here is the link.

The talk was entitled 'Effects of diets restricted in fat and carbohydrate with and without resistance training on body composition and cardiovascular risk'. The take home was:

(1) 12 weeks of low carb gave statistically better lipid panels than low fat for 47 fat 30-something men enrolled in the study. By now not a surprising result.

(2) Resistance training resulted in better squats and bench press results than those who did not do resistance training. Okay, no surprise there either -- however, the diet, low carb vs low fat, made no difference. Nice to hear because I am doing NK while doing a power lifting program.

(3) Finally, gains in lean body mass (as measure by DEXA scans) occurred only with those who did resistance training.

Sorry, nothing about endurance exercises at all. Though Phinney and Volek did mention in one of their books that endurance exercise made your body more efficient. Which would make you burn less at the same level of activity. But, if you think about it that make sense. You are becoming lean and hardened to deprivations by running. If you add muscle though, you have to feed those muscles.

Anyway, I don't have the actual reference only the comment from Volek's talk.

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Old 11-27-2012, 08:54 PM   #14
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Even mainstream, carb-loving publications like Runner's World are jumping on the ketoadaptation bandwagon. What they say is to train to become ketoadapted, then use the gels or whatever on race day to give yourself a boost.

What they describe as the way to become ketoadapted (or fat adapted as they call it) wouldn't work though, so I don't know how valuable the rest of their advice is.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panabax View Post

Just a theory, but it makes sense to me. Anyway, I still feel like crap so I bagged my short run today. I am going to take it very easy for the next two weeks. All my real millage is already done. Hopefully I will have some energy by Sunday to go out and do 8 miles. I may try and contact Phinney and see if he can offer any advice.
Are you doing salt supplementation? That is a critical difference between the high carb and low carb states. High carb is good at sparing sodium, whereas you usually need to supplement (like a couple of grams extra/day) with low carb.

If you are fairly far along with keto adaptation, then your muscles will probably have switch from burning BHB to rexporting it for use by the brain. Thus they will be using free fatty acids instead. Easy way to increase those is using Coconut Oil (CO). Like by adding a teaspoon to a hot drink (eg, coffee). Or you can kill two birds with one stone by making broth from some type of bullion cube and add some CO to that. CO has high amounts of medium chain triglycerides in it.

Might want to titrate up with both of those --especially pre-run -- because I experienced some hypermotility (of my GI) after my initial use of them. Definitely would not be fun to experience during a run...

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Old 11-28-2012, 12:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by NKSL55 View Post
Are you doing salt supplementation? That is a critical difference between the high carb and low carb states. High carb is good at sparing sodium, whereas you usually need to supplement (like a couple of grams extra/day) with low carb.
No. Bullion is on the list of things I keep forgetting to pick up at the grocery store.

Quote:
If you are fairly far along with keto adaptation, then your muscles will probably have switch from burning BHB to rexporting it for use by the brain. Thus they will be using free fatty acids instead. Easy way to increase those is using Coconut Oil (CO). Like by adding a teaspoon to a hot drink (eg, coffee). Or you can kill two birds with one stone by making broth from some type of bullion cube and add some CO to that. CO has high amounts of medium chain triglycerides in it.
I have been using coconut oil, but only for cooking. I will get the bullion and make some broth with added CO.

BTW, I did my run this morning and I was much improved. I was not what I would say was 100% but I was probably 85% where I had been feeling about 65% over the weekend.

Here is what is strange. On Sunday, my ketones were at 1.0 via blood measurement and my ketostick was dark pink. However, the last two days, my ketostik is barely changing color. I have felt like my glycogen was totally depleted over the weekend. I feel better now. But I am not eating any significant carbs. Why did my ketone level drop? Am I going to have to restrict my self to meat and heavy cream to get into and stay in ketosis? The only carbs I am eating are in the form of full fat greek yogurt, some nuts and and occasional few berries or tomato slices. Is that stuff throwing me out of ketosis?
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:57 PM   #17
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Here is what is strange. On Sunday, my ketones were at 1.0 via blood measurement and my ketostick was dark pink. However, the last two days, my ketostik is barely changing color. I have felt like my glycogen was totally depleted over the weekend. I feel better now. But I am not eating any significant carbs. Why did my ketone level drop? Am I going to have to restrict my self to meat and heavy cream to get into and stay in ketosis? The only carbs I am eating are in the form of full fat greek yogurt, some nuts and and occasional few berries or tomato slices. Is that stuff throwing me out of ketosis?
Did you check again using the blood measurement? The ketostix don't work after the point where you body starts re-absorbing all the acetoacetate instead of allowing it to be excreted.

The yogurt (if it is plain) will have very little sugar in it. Most of the lactose will have been converted to lactate

Once you have your carb intake very low, it is protein that is most likely to kick you out of ketosis. How many grams a day do you think you are eating?

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Old 11-29-2012, 08:21 AM   #18
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Did you check again using the blood measurement? The ketostix don't work after the point where you body starts re-absorbing all the acetoacetate instead of allowing it to be excreted.

The yogurt (if it is plain) will have very little sugar in it. Most of the lactose will have been converted to lactate

Once you have your carb intake very low, it is protein that is most likely to kick you out of ketosis. How many grams a day do you think you are eating?
I have checked with the blood test, but not in the last couple of days given that those strips are so expensive. I was hoping to get a "ballpark" with the sticks and then more accurate blood measurements like once a week. Maybe that won't work.

The yogurt is plain and made with whole milk and cream so it very high in fat and low in carbs (even compared to regular "whole milk" plain yogurt). I have not been diligent about counting grams, but I am going to start tracking everything. I thought I could just keep carbs super low and eat moderate protein, but I guess that is pretty imprecise. I am figuring my protein at 80-120 g/day. I am going to try to keep my carbs at 30g or below.

I think I may have overdone the CO this morning. I had a heaping T in my coffee. Then I had another heaping T in a cup of broth. Then I made a two egg omelet in a heaping t of CO. I don't know if I will be able to eat lunch or not.

Despite all of this uncertainty, I am starting to feel more energy and hope I am turning the corner to adaptation. I will let you know how it continues to go. I will also check my BK levels tonight.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:56 AM   #19
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I will also check my BK levels tonight.
Might want to save that until tomorrow morning. All that CO will elevate your BK levels. But by morning you should be back to a 'fasted' BK level.

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Old 11-29-2012, 04:09 PM   #20
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Even mainstream, carb-loving publications like Runner's World are jumping on the ketoadaptation bandwagon. What they say is to train to become ketoadapted, then use the gels or whatever on race day to give yourself a boost.

What they describe as the way to become ketoadapted (or fat adapted as they call it) wouldn't work though, so I don't know how valuable the rest of their advice is.
Yes, very similar to train @ altitude, race @ sea level.....Since I live in Colorado, maybe my first marathon should be at sea level!!!!

Seriously though, I've toyed with that idea for race day...but would probably have to test it to make sure I don't have GI issues....that's why I've considered natural carb sources like banana & sweet potatoes...messy but a nice glucose hit
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:39 PM   #21
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Yes, very similar to train @ altitude, race @ sea level.....Since I live in Colorado, maybe my first marathon should be at sea level!!!!

Seriously though, I've toyed with that idea for race day...but would probably have to test it to make sure I don't have GI issues....that's why I've considered natural carb sources like banana & sweet potatoes...messy but a nice glucose hit
Having run a half marathon, I can not imagine how you would carry that kind of snack. Be sure to try it on a long run first.

I went out on a long run with a peanut butter packet once, trying to avoid the sugar shots that are sold commercially. I have eaten peanut butter packets many times before with no issue, but trying to tear the packet open, squeeze the stuff out and swallow it all while running (on a trail no less) was too much for me. Then I couldn't swallow the stuff. I felt like a dog you give peanut butter too.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:10 PM   #22
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Having run a half marathon, I can not imagine how you would carry that kind of snack. Be sure to try it on a long run first.

I went out on a long run with a peanut butter packet once, trying to avoid the sugar shots that are sold commercially. I have eaten peanut butter packets many times before with no issue, but trying to tear the packet open, squeeze the stuff out and swallow it all while running (on a trail no less) was too much for me. Then I couldn't swallow the stuff. I felt like a dog you give peanut butter too.

Goodness- peanut butter, I'd gag & choke!

Yes, I've run half-marathons before.... and understand the focus & fatigue of long runs Generally I don't want anything on a long run other that water and a jelly bean every mile- LOL

Paleo running folks say they carry a half a banana, or a ziplocs of mashed sweet potato etc. Really, if you're going to eat anything its a pain...
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:05 AM   #23
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OK, my BK level this morning was a disappointing 0.3. Nevertheless, I am feeling a lot stronger. I did five miles this morning and felt great. I came in right at 40 minutes for an 8:00/mile average. That's over a minute/mile faster than I was able to run 4 miles on Saturday and almost 2 minutes/mile faster than my 12 mile run on Sunday. Is it possible that my BK levels are low because the ketones are being burned very quickly? I had a spike in ketone levels on Sunday when I felt my very worse and know I was completely glycogen depleted.

Anyway, I have discovered that there is nothing better than pure maltodextrin for carb supplementation on long runs/rides. I am off the stuff now, but for my marathon next week I have decided to take some carbs along the way since I won't have any time to train on long runs without nutrition. Gu makes a plain which is nothing but maltodextrin a little fructose a little water and some electrolytes. It is the least likely to cause any GI issues, IMHO, because it has only what you want and nothing else. It doesn't taste good, but it doesn't taste bad either. I plan to take 1 at the start and one every 5 miles for the first 20 miles. That's 500 calories of glucose over what will probably be a 3000 calorie run.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:19 PM   #24
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OK, so I just finished the Dallas Marathon. Let me just say that 26 miles is really too far to run. Anyway, I finished in 4:08 which is a little disappointing for me. I wanted to be sub 4:00 but I don't think I had any more left in me.

My fuel source was not a limiting factor on this run. Neither was my cardio fitness. My poor legs, especially my quads, just couldn't keep up the pace. I had to will them to keep running after about mile 22. There is a long uphill portion that ends just past mile 21 and it really sapped all the strength left in my legs.

I checked my BK levels when I got him, just out of curiosity. I was right at 2.0. I ate two servings of oatmeal for breakfast, 6 100kcal gels (basically pure glucose) during the course of the race, and two bananas and an orange after.

So, yes, NK is compatible with endurance sports.

Now I need a nap.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:42 PM   #25
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Have any of you looked into the even higher molecular weight carb called "super starch". Peter Attia gives it a review here and here. It is essentially very high molecular weight starch ('waxy maize starch') made even higher molecular weight with some cooking process.

Point being, it apparently will not knock you out of ketosis nor subject you to the insulin rush that generally occasions eating carbs.

On the other hand, if panabax was still in ketosis after eating nearly 1000 Cal of carbs (including 600 Cal of glucose?!?) on the day he raced -- not sure what it would take to knock him out of ketosis. Although maybe that doesn't sound that great to others -- sure you can eat a bunch of carbs on an NK diet, if you run a marathon the day you eat them!

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Old 12-09-2012, 03:45 PM   #26
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OK, so I just finished the Dallas Marathon. Let me just say that 26 miles is really too far to run. Anyway, I finished in 4:08 which is a little disappointing for me. I wanted to be sub 4:00 but I don't think I had any more left in me.

My fuel source was not a limiting factor on this run. Neither was my cardio fitness. My poor legs, especially my quads, just couldn't keep up the pace. I had to will them to keep running after about mile 22. There is a long uphill portion that ends just past mile 21 and it really sapped all the strength left in my legs.

I checked my BK levels when I got him, just out of curiosity. I was right at 2.0. I ate two servings of oatmeal for breakfast, 6 100kcal gels (basically pure glucose) during the course of the race, and two bananas and an orange after.

So, yes, NK is compatible with endurance sports.

Now I need a nap.
Congratulations panabax! Thanks for the post-marathon BK info.

Back when you were 320 lbs, did you ever imagine you would complete a marathon one day?

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Old 12-09-2012, 07:39 PM   #27
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OK, so I just finished the Dallas Marathon. Let me just say that 26 miles is really too far to run. Anyway, I finished in 4:08 which is a little disappointing for me. I wanted to be sub 4:00 but I don't think I had any more left in me.

My fuel source was not a limiting factor on this run. Neither was my cardio fitness. My poor legs, especially my quads, just couldn't keep up the pace. I had to will them to keep running after about mile 22. There is a long uphill portion that ends just past mile 21 and it really sapped all the strength left in my legs.

I checked my BK levels when I got him, just out of curiosity. I was right at 2.0. I ate two servings of oatmeal for breakfast, 6 100kcal gels (basically pure glucose) during the course of the race, and two bananas and an orange after.

So, yes, NK is compatible with endurance sports.

Now I need a nap.



Congratulations on finishing! Way to rock it! Sorry you didn't make your time goal- I get that, I really do and its especially hard when you gave it your all. But at the same time, to me, that's what its about- you gave it all and held nothing back- I'm impressed- especially with a hill/grade at 21 miles onward- that's a cruel course.

Sometimes its not cardio training, mental game or fueling strategy- its the abuse of the run.

Interesting that you still carbed up prior to and during the run...have you done that thru out the last few weeks for training? I didn't think so but need to re-read...if this was the first time you 'carbed up' so to speak, how did ou feel? Just curious- rest and get back to me.

And smiling to hear once again that NK is compatible w/ endurance sports. Living proof!. I'm still holding at 12 as my long run- need to cut back a little for the holidays as I'm starting to wear thin, but still very committed to training for & running 26.2 in ketosis.



Good job!
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:46 AM   #28
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Have any of you looked into the even higher molecular weight carb called "super starch". Peter Attia gives it a review here and here. It is essentially very high molecular weight starch ('waxy maize starch') made even higher molecular weight with some cooking process.Phillip
I ordered a jug, but I didn't realize how long it would take to ship. It is scheduled to arrive Tuesday. Doh!

It sounds similar to another product called Vitargo, which I have a lot of. It is a VERY high molecular weigh starch. However, it is advertised as causing a spike in BG 1.7 times faster than maltodextrin. Maltodextrin supposedly raises your BG levels even faster than pure glucose syrup. Obviously, the Generation UCAN product is marketed as producing essentially no BG spike. Maybe I will run a test of my BG levels after ingestion of one and then the other while sedentary, just for fun (cause the Vitargo tastes just like Elmer's glue. How do I know what Elmer's glue tastes like? I was a kid once you know).

I'm not sure what the advantage is of the super starch. My understanding is that your body does not excrete insulin in response to dietary sugar while you are exercising. It just takes the sugar and burns it instead of pulling from your glycogen stores. It would be key for a pre-workout fuel.


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Back when you were 320 lbs, did you ever imagine you would complete a marathon one day?
Uh, no.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:57 AM   #29
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Interesting that you still carbed up prior to and during the run...have you done that thru out the last few weeks for training? I didn't think so but need to re-read...if this was the first time you 'carbed up' so to speak, how did ou feel? Just curious- rest and get back to me.
Well I was barely 3 weeks into NK when I ran yesterday, so most of my training was not in NK. In fact, only one of my long training runs (over 15 miles) was after I started this WOE and it was only 3 days after. I fueled during, but not prior, to that 20 mile run with 4 GU gels. It was not enough. I was not keto-adapted and I was becoming glycogen depleted from the first 3 days of this WOE. I made it to mile 19, then bonked and had to walk in the last mile.

On runs shorter than 15 miles I would not normally take any calories anyway. I would very much like to have had time to do more long run training in NK to see how far I could push the limits on fat fueling. However, given that I did not have that experience, I opted for the more conservative approach of fueling before and during the run in order to slow down the rate of glycogen depletion.

My next race of consequence with be the Lonestar 70.3 half Ironman in Galveston in April. I should know a lot more by then about what my body is capable of. It should be between a 5 and 6 hour effort, so in race fueling will almost certainly come into play again.

I will keep you posted on my progress but I intend to train and race in NK and determine if it is necessary to supplements glucose during the race or not.
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:30 AM   #30
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Hi, I am new to this forum and I am/was an endurance athlete. I have recently just switched to a low carb diet because I couldn't handle the problems associated with insulin highs and lows, aggravated by endurance training. I am thinking I just had a bad fueling plan, either that or its genetics since obesity runs in my family. Anyways, I was just wondering if anyone has had some success being an endurance athlete on a LC diet. I know I am at risk for bonking but I don't really know how to avoid that. Is there anywhere to do LC and avoid bonking. Or can you train your body to be fueled for training on fat as to not have to worry about that. I am at the point where I am just thinking of giving up on endurance sports, so was wondering if there is any hope in that. Thanks.
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