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Old 11-10-2012, 12:11 PM   #241
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Stomach Aches

So I have read the October and the November threads for weeks now. I have been in ketosis for a couple of months. Bought one of those Nova Max monitors without realizing that I wanted a Nova Max Plus. But I kept it because it came with that cool spring loaded lance. Bought the Nova Max Plus.

BTW, I see that Buffy has already welcomed me. Thanks Buffy. I actually tried to make mayonnaise using bacon fat as a variation of the recipe you posted. Great to actually converse with you!

Anyway, for the last couple of weeks I have had stomach aches. Really strange for me. I am used to occasional lower GI episode (including those brought on pushing the CO too much), but upper GI pain is much less common. I am blaming it on a stomach virus, but as the days wear on, I am beginning to worry that my diet is playing a role.

I can keep the pain down to a dull roar that happens about an hour after eating and lasts a couple of hours. I haven't tried antacids, or anything else other than eating smaller meals. Large meal, large pain.

By the way this isn't the omega-6 stomach ache that Phinney and Volek mention in one of their books that is associated with normal soybean oil mayo. I did get that months ago, but it went away when I stopped eating that mayonnaise.

Any ideas? I have a doctor's appointment in a few weeks, but hopefully this will have passed by then...

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:25 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
Welcome NKS. Glad to hear the great success you are having!
Thanks Buffy!

Kind of weird, I have always had an affinity for computers and the internet, but times like this it really hits me. I have read all your posts in this forum and the other NKish, uh 80/15/5? sub-forum.

Probably not more than 100 other people in the world that I know more about. But not only have I never met you, but before today, I have not exchanged a word with you. Guess that makes you the celebrity, eh?

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:31 PM   #243
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Oh my, my celebrity status has been outed!!!! Yes, I am very very famous!! NOT, Just pretty darn chatty.

I had stomach ache for about 3 weeks after I started this WOE, wasn't sure what it was, but like yours, it would come on after eating, then go away. Ginger supplements helped mine and then eventually it went away. But, you have been doing this much longer, have you started any new supplements? Eating something different? Or, might just be a virus that has to work it's way out of your system. Not sure what to suggest except the ginger to ease it. The one I use is just a ginger root complex and 1 capsule has 250 mg ginger extract.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:34 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by jillybean720 View Post
I do need to order some more erythritol, but I can just use some Truvia or Stevia in the Raw for now.
Anyone else notice the top ingredient of Stevia in the Raw? Dextrose!!!!

Dextrose == Glucose.

I was thinking of trying some. But I don't have much of sweet tooth anyway and the name "Stevia in the Raw" seems like such a monstrous lie, I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Also noticed that the little packets of salt in a nearby cafeteria have dextrose listed as an ingredient.

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Old 11-10-2012, 12:47 PM   #245
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I know others have answered, but magnesium is very much recommended for low carbers. Adding potassium is also recommended. Both long-term.
thanks,
can you tell me which kind of potassium and how much I should be taking?

Have any of you looked into transdermal magnesium? From what I've read its an oil that is manufactured from sea water and when you soak your feet in it its supposed to bypass the digestive system thereby being more readily absorbed. Similiar to sublingual supplements. I have also heard that dead sea salt soaks work as well but I'm not sure how reliable this information is.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:50 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
Oh my, my celebrity status has been outed!!!! Yes, I am very very famous!! NOT, Just pretty darn chatty.

I had stomach ache for about 3 weeks after I started this WOE, wasn't sure what it was, but like yours, it would come on after eating, then go away. Ginger supplements helped mine and then eventually it went away. But, you have been doing this much longer, have you started any new supplements? Eating something different? Or, might just be a virus that has to work it's way out of your system. Not sure what to suggest except the ginger to ease it. The one I use is just a ginger root complex and 1 capsule has 250 mg ginger extract.
My diet does not vary much -- all eggs, bacon, olives, avocados, lettuce, various cheeses, hamburgers, no-bean chili (not spiced). Actually I was eating lots of peppers a few months ago. I love spicy food. But I started getting something similar to what I have now. Except it was very focused on eating peppers. Had to give them up. But similar stomach ache with some heartburn.

Another strange thing has been happening -- I went through the Adkin's flu. Probably a couple of times as I initially would have been transitioning in and out of ketosis. Then I was stable in the 0.4-1.2 mmol of betahydroxybuterate range for a while. Then I felt kind of weird again for a few days. Not quite a flu, but the "oil in the back of your throat feeling". Afterwards I was more in the 1.5-2.5 mmol range.

Just yesterday I had my highest reading ever -- 4.8. Would have been concerned but I had previously seen Jimmy Moore's levels bouncing between 3-6. I tried to eat a little more protein than normal anyway. This morning I was down to 3. Still, I wonder if this is related. If there are these physical hurdles one experiencing transitioning to a higher blood ketone level?

I guess I should add that a couple of months back I also started a power lifting program called "stronglifts 5x5". No advertisements there, so I could post a link, I guess. But if you just google stronglifts, it will be at the top.

So this starts off very easy, but now it is quite arduous. I have lots of details, but this post is getting kind of long. I'll write more later. But the point is I almost think my body is adapting to keep my ketone levels high during the workout.

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Old 11-10-2012, 01:01 PM   #247
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Weight loss accomplished. Why stay in NK?

Low grade entertainment?

Actually I have some concern that I was heading straight for metabolic syndrome after all my years of heavy carb intake. Doctor put me on blood pressure medicine and I can tell was sizing me up for a statin. Also, I felt moderately cruddy all the time.

So, here is hoping that NK can back me out of those issues. Losing the weight was really only a first step.

Plus, keto-adapted is better. Sure you must not eat everything that someone would put in front of you. But most of the time you aren't that hungry anyway. Plus those carbohydrate rollercoaster blood sugar levels make it pretty hard to concentrate.

And NK gives you that 30% lower respiratory quotient. Feels so weird to have your heart beating that fast during exercise but not feel that out of breath.

Plus, it takes some time (and agony) to keto-adapt. You don't want to drop it on a whim, knowing it will be an ordeal to get back in.

That's my way of looking at it, anyway.

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Old 11-10-2012, 01:13 PM   #248
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Effect of hard excersize on blood ketone levels.

As my Stronglift workouts became more strenuous, I started checking my ketone levels before and after the workout. These are nearly 2 hour workouts, with 5 sets of 5 squats, followed by either bench press and barbell row or overhead press and deadlifts. Well, the workout can be done in 30 minutes if you are superhuman. But I spend a good bit of time doing mobility excercises and foam rolling to prevent all my joints from seizing up.

Anyway, the general trend is that the concentration of betahydroxybuterate in my blood will drop by about 1.2-1.5 mM. Some times this results in me dropping below 0.5 mM. But the levels always seem to return by the next morning.

I was going to look up the number of liters of blood I probably have in my body and try to do a back-of-the-envelope calculation of how many calories worth of ketones I would have burnt during the workout. Then also compare that to what my heart rate monitor's estimation of the number of calories I have burnt is. Wonder if they would gibe?

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Old 11-10-2012, 01:22 PM   #249
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Phillip! Congratulations on your success. So are you currently at your goal weight or are you trying to lose more?
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:25 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
thanks,
can you tell me which kind of potassium and how much I should be taking?

Have any of you looked into transdermal magnesium? From what I've read its an oil that is manufactured from sea water and when you soak your feet in it its supposed to bypass the digestive system thereby being more readily absorbed. Similiar to sublingual supplements. I have also heard that dead sea salt soaks work as well but I'm not sure how reliable this information is.
I take magnesium citrate--3 of the 99mg tablets. I have issues with foot and leg cramps so I increased the dosage every few days until my cramping went away.

I have the spray on magnesium oil but it made my skin itch pretty badly. I do like epsom salt baths however. Now that it's winter and I take more baths I'll have to remember the epsom salts.
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:34 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NKSL55 View Post

Anyway, the general trend is that the concentration of betahydroxybuterate in my blood will drop by about 1.2-1.5 mM. Some times this results in me dropping below 0.5 mM. But the levels always seem to return by the next morning.
This is very interesting information, thanks for posting it! I have not tested very much after working out but now I can see how a hard workout would lower your blood ketones because they're being used for energy.
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:43 PM   #252
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Hi to everyone!

Welcome Phillip! Glad you de-lurked to join us! I have the mystery stomach issues for about three weeks. No clue what is causing it, mine is upper GI usually starts within one hour of eating....never had reflux, or any issues for that matter, but my pain is right under the breast bone out inch or two left following the rib cage. Today I am in "allergy test mode"....as I have many food allergies....tomorrow is no coconut product day, and I am hoping that will not prove the issue. I have backed way off of it the past two weeks. I never take meds for this, just drink water and green tea and wait it out. Getting tired of it though. I have also cut way back on coffee, I think I was enjoying way too much. I have also stopped all supplements and will add them one by one to see if that is the issue. I don't eat much spicy anymore, basic stuff. Stopped nuts too. I am at wits end with it, as you sound like you are too. I plan on having a scope dropped in to take a peek if it doesn't go away by T'giving. ct
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:45 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
thanks,
can you tell me which kind of potassium and how much I should be taking?

Have any of you looked into transdermal magnesium? From what I've read its an oil that is manufactured from sea water and when you soak your feet in it its supposed to bypass the digestive system thereby being more readily absorbed. Similiar to sublingual supplements. I have also heard that dead sea salt soaks work as well but I'm not sure how reliable this information is.
any type of potassium is fine, I get the cheapest one and take 3 99mg a day now...backed down from 4. sometimes I remember two a day. I have heard good/bad on the transdermal magnesium. Sounds interesting, but drying, as Kristn says. Worth looking into to.
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:47 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
Oh my, my celebrity status has been outed!!!! Yes, I am very very famous!! NOT, Just pretty darn chatty.

I had stomach ache for about 3 weeks after I started this WOE, wasn't sure what it was, but like yours, it would come on after eating, then go away. Ginger supplements helped mine and then eventually it went away. But, you have been doing this much longer, have you started any new supplements? Eating something different? Or, might just be a virus that has to work it's way out of your system. Not sure what to suggest except the ginger to ease it. The one I use is just a ginger root complex and 1 capsule has 250 mg ginger extract.
Good idea Buffy! I used to chew ginger during pregnancy for the issues...didn't think about getting the caps.
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:17 PM   #255
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Hi All
I get my grassfed beef from the Morris family, a local ranch near Hollister here in California. They have a website if you want to Google their name and Grassfed Beef. They are currently taking calls for orders to be delivered in early December if anyone is interested. They deliver all over the SF Bay area.
I think I am over the carb flu that made me feel so very bad the first few weeks of my NK adventure so I will probably increase my exercise level again. I felt so bad and my kidneys ached so much that I was afraid to exercise the first few weeks. I may rethink my crossfit and go with a personal trainer for a while just so I can tailor my exercise to my knee problem a bit more but I have to look into the cost.
I am thrilled to announce that my Blood Ketone levels have been as high as 2.9 these last few days with a low of 0.9 in the mornings. It's strange - my levels are low in the mornings even if I've been up all night at work and eating through the night.
I did increase my fat /food intake the last day or so and am not suffering from that gnawing hunger feeling so have been less miserable. I worry that I won't lose any weight with increased calories --- mind you I wasn't losing weight while trying to limit my calories either.
Phillip how I envy you your experience of having the fat melt away ---- that is definitely NOT my experience so far.
I am afraid that I might turn out to be one of those people who doesn't lose fat despite being in good nutritional ketosis. That would seriously bum me out.
The thing that keeps me going is that Dr Attia said that his first 6 weeks of NK were horrible so I'm going to give it at least that long.
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:39 PM   #256
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Hi All
I get my grassfed beef from the Morris family, a local ranch near Hollister here in California. They have a website if you want to Google their name and Grassfed Beef. They are currently taking calls for orders to be delivered in early December if anyone is interested. They deliver all over the SF Bay area.
I think I am over the carb flu that made me feel so very bad the first few weeks of my NK adventure so I will probably increase my exercise level again. I felt so bad and my kidneys ached so much that I was afraid to exercise the first few weeks. I may rethink my crossfit and go with a personal trainer for a while just so I can tailor my exercise to my knee problem a bit more but I have to look into the cost.
I am thrilled to announce that my Blood Ketone levels have been as high as 2.9 these last few days with a low of 0.9 in the mornings. It's strange - my levels are low in the mornings even if I've been up all night at work and eating through the night.
I did increase my fat /food intake the last day or so and am not suffering from that gnawing hunger feeling so have been less miserable. I worry that I won't lose any weight with increased calories --- mind you I wasn't losing weight while trying to limit my calories either.
Phillip how I envy you your experience of having the fat melt away ---- that is definitely NOT my experience so far.
I am afraid that I might turn out to be one of those people who doesn't lose fat despite being in good nutritional ketosis. That would seriously bum me out.
The thing that keeps me going is that Dr Attia said that his first 6 weeks of NK were horrible so I'm going to give it at least that long.
Hang in there! A few of us are on the "6 month waiting" phase...may take that long to get our bodies to comply with NK! I have been so pleased with the control, no urges to eat anything sugar, bread, etc....and the no hunger too! So, I will be patient....
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:18 PM   #257
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Phillip! Congratulations on your success. So are you currently at your goal weight or are you trying to lose more?
I am more or less at my goal weight.

Last year I would have been happy with 180. Once I got to that point I started lifting in the hopes of getting some fat to muscle conversion. I think it has worked, although you would not know it from my Withing scale. I can see the muscle hypertrophy, but Withing scores it all as fat. Of course I can switch it to athletic mode, but that goes too far the other direction.

Anyway, I started to trend gently downwards again a month ago and ended up at 175.

By the way, thanks for starting this sub-forum. I think NK is important, but it is so new the resources are somewhat limited. Nice to be able to read the adventures of fellow "travelers" -- and now that I registered, interact.

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Old 11-10-2012, 07:31 PM   #258
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Hi to everyone!

Welcome Phillip! Glad you de-lurked to join us! I have the mystery stomach issues for about three weeks. No clue what is causing it, mine is upper GI usually starts within one hour of eating....never had reflux, or any issues for that matter, but my pain is right under the breast bone out inch or two left following the rib cage.
That really sounds familiar. Except if I ate a lot, it really flares up into a full blown schoolboy stomach ache.

Today I ate a little more than I have been and the pain stayed minor. Hoping this is passing. Maybe a long lasting virus or a turf war among my gut biota. The change in diet should result in substantial changes in their make up. Maybe this is tipping point with the older carb-adapted species refusing to go gently.

The only food I might point the finger at are a batch of avocados that I bought 10 for $10 a couple of weeks ago. I notice they all have dark spots in their flesh. Maybe bacteria or fungus that disagrees with my gut. Guess I will toss them.

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Old 11-10-2012, 07:33 PM   #259
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This is very interesting information, thanks for posting it! I have not tested very much after working out but now I can see how a hard workout would lower your blood ketones because they're being used for energy.
Happened again today. Dropped from 3 mM to 1.5 mM. I should do the calculation...

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Old 11-10-2012, 08:11 PM   #260
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any type of potassium is fine, I get the cheapest one and take 3 99mg a day now...backed down from 4. sometimes I remember two a day. I have heard good/bad on the transdermal magnesium. Sounds interesting, but drying, as Kristn says. Worth looking into to.
ct
I agree - any potassium is fine. I have "Real Salt" which has a lot of minerals, and I also have a Morton's Lite Salt which has a lot of potassium in it. I salt liberally and I love eating avocados - also loaded with potassium.

Since I've been careful to supplement with magnesium and potassium, my leg cramps have stopped.
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:55 AM   #261
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I agree - any potassium is fine. I have "Real Salt" which has a lot of minerals, and I also have a Morton's Lite Salt which has a lot of potassium in it. I salt liberally and I love eating avocados - also loaded with potassium.

Since I've been careful to supplement with magnesium and potassium, my leg cramps have stopped.
Ok thanks I actually have leg cramps that keep my up sometimes.
I'm just wondering do you- or anyone- happen to know if its ok to take potassium if you have low blood pressure? I'm not on any meds. I have low blood pressure and once in awhile if i'm not careful to drink enough I get light headed and even faint. Since potassium is good for high blood pressure I wonder if its safe for me. I tried googling and haven't found a clear answer.
if i speak with my dr. he'll tell me to eat more carbs...
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Old 11-11-2012, 02:03 AM   #262
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That really sounds familiar. Except if I ate a lot, it really flares up into a full blown schoolboy stomach ache.

Today I ate a little more than I have been and the pain stayed minor. Hoping this is passing. Maybe a long lasting virus or a turf war among my gut biota. The change in diet should result in substantial changes in their make up. Maybe this is tipping point with the older carb-adapted species refusing to go gently.

The only food I might point the finger at are a batch of avocados that I bought 10 for $10 a couple of weeks ago. I notice they all have dark spots in their flesh. Maybe bacteria or fungus that disagrees with my gut. Guess I will toss them.

--
Phillip
Interesting, I've been doing low carb mostly on and sometimes off for many years and I've noticed that if I have been perfect for a long time and then
eat carbs-say bc I'm on vacation and the restaurants call to me- I get a terrible stomach ache (similar to the lactose intolerance stomach ache) for the first few carb containing meals. Then I'm fine. I've often wondered if part of adapting to a ketogenetic diets results in the body producing less of the enzymes necessary to break down carbs bc of the lower demand.
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:16 AM   #263
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Ok thanks I actually have leg cramps that keep my up sometimes.
I'm just wondering do you- or anyone- happen to know if its ok to take potassium if you have low blood pressure? I'm not on any meds. I have low blood pressure and once in awhile if i'm not careful to drink enough I get light headed and even faint. Since potassium is good for high blood pressure I wonder if its safe for me. I tried googling and haven't found a clear answer.
if i speak with my dr. he'll tell me to eat more carbs...
Ugh - no I'm sorry I don't know about that.

If you have time to do some research it would at least give you a direction to go before you ask your doc. And gee, of course eating more carbs would raise your blood pressure, and some other things....
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:09 AM   #264
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So I have read the October and the November threads for weeks now. I have been in ketosis for a couple of months. Bought one of those Nova Max monitors without realizing that I wanted a Nova Max Plus. But I kept it because it came with that cool spring loaded lance. Bought the Nova Max Plus.

BTW, I see that Buffy has already welcomed me. Thanks Buffy. I actually tried to make mayonnaise using bacon fat as a variation of the recipe you posted. Great to actually converse with you!

Anyway, for the last couple of weeks I have had stomach aches. Really strange for me. I am used to occasional lower GI episode (including those brought on pushing the CO too much), but upper GI pain is much less common. I am blaming it on a stomach virus, but as the days wear on, I am beginning to worry that my diet is playing a role.

I can keep the pain down to a dull roar that happens about an hour after eating and lasts a couple of hours. I haven't tried antacids, or anything else other than eating smaller meals. Large meal, large pain.

By the way this isn't the omega-6 stomach ache that Phinney and Volek mention in one of their books that is associated with normal soybean oil mayo. I did get that months ago, but it went away when I stopped eating that mayonnaise.

Any ideas? I have a doctor's appointment in a few weeks, but hopefully this will have passed by then...

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Phillip- one thing that might be an issue- dairy? One thing with this diet is that it can have a lot of it. I didn't have stomach issues but suspect some intolerance and have been trying to go dairy free- not that easy (love me my cream cheese- any cheese really!) but not impossible.
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:13 AM   #265
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Morning all! I wanted to share a soup recipe that I made yesterday b/c it was pretty good! I added jalapenos to it and made it spicy. Sorry for the columns- I wanted to include it b/c you wouldn't have to figure it out yourself. I am trying non-dairy and so obviously you could substitute HWC for the Coconut cream.

Creamy Spinach/Cauliflower soup



Number of servings 6 - 2 cup servings

Carbs Fat Protein Fiber
Spinach - Cooked, boiled, drained, with salt, 1.5 cup 62 10 1 8 6
Cauliflower - Raw, 1 head, medium (5-6" dia) 144 30 1 11 14
Trader Joe's - Coconut Milk Beverage - Unsweetened, 8 oz 60 1 5 0 0
Trader Joe's - Coconut Cream Extra Thick and Rich, 1.665 cup (80ml) 850 20 80 10 0
Pork - Cured, bacon, cooked, pan-fried, 4 slice cooked 168 0 13 12 0
Swanson - Chicken Broth - 99% Fat Free, 4 cup 19 1 1 3 0

Total: 1303 62 101 44 20
Per Serving: 217 10 17 7 3

Hope you enjoy!
Amy
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Old 11-11-2012, 05:19 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by JMCM1 View Post
Ugh - no I'm sorry I don't know about that.

If you have time to do some research it would at least give you a direction to go before you ask your doc. And gee, of course eating more carbs would raise your blood pressure, and some other things....
Apparently the low blood pressure is a good thing as long as I'm careful not to do anything to lower it more. But if I start asking about potassium he will no doubt ask my why and then tell me not to low carb. One thing I learned the hard way.. after many yrs of LC.... At least around here.. is to keep my WOE to myself....
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:19 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
Apparently the low blood pressure is a good thing as long as I'm careful not to do anything to lower it more. But if I start asking about potassium he will no doubt ask my why and then tell me not to low carb. One thing I learned the hard way.. after many yrs of LC.... At least around here.. is to keep my WOE to myself....
Wow, I have found most doctors today will say to cut out all the white stuff, but I suppose he would tell you to supplement with whole grains.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:48 AM   #268
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Low Blood Ketones?

Was reading Jimmy Moore's recent post on his Nutritional Ketosis Experiment ( google Jimmy Moore N-1 day 151-180 ) and saw this paragraph that might be helpful to some that are struggling to get 'good' BK numbers.

I’ve been getting a lot of e-mails from readers who are attempting to do their own n=1 experiments of nutritional ketosis and several of you have expressed frustration about not seeing levels above .3 or .4 no matter when you test. Remember, your lowest readings of the day will almost always be in the morning and your highest readings will tend to be at night when you are eating high-fat, moderate protein, low-carb. When I’ve inquired about what people are eating when they are getting these low readings, I see one commonality–they tend to eat three meals plus snacks. That’s a lot of feedings that doesn’t give your body the chance to make ketones. Even if that means eating a little more at your “breakfast” meal and skipping lunch or even skipping breakfast altogether, it will make a difference. While there’s nothing inherently magical about getting your ketone levels raised above 1.0 millimolar, the difference in hunger, cravings, satiety and overall feeling is immense. If you’re frustrated by low blood ketone readings, try eating more at your first meal and seeing how long you can go until the next meal. You should easily make it for at least 10-12 hours or you need to be eating more in that earlier meal. I hope this helps those of you who are stuck trying this.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:54 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
Wow, I have found most doctors today will say to cut out all the white stuff, but I suppose he would tell you to supplement with whole grains.
Ella I saw that Jimmy Moore post, too, and found it interesting. I have somehow (although I am in ketosis) let that slip past me - that we might need more time between eating to let our body make its own ketones.

Buffy isn't that amazing??? These doctors know the effect of any carbohydrate. And somehow they'll recommend "healthy whole grains." Which is a misnomer...

I realize beliefs are hard to change, but I wish the docs were the ones promoting this healthy way of eating.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:19 AM   #270
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Anyone else notice the top ingredient of Stevia in the Raw? Dextrose!!!!

Dextrose == Glucose.

I was thinking of trying some. But I don't have much of sweet tooth anyway and the name "Stevia in the Raw" seems like such a monstrous lie, I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Also noticed that the little packets of salt in a nearby cafeteria have dextrose listed as an ingredient.

--
Phillip
The baking Stevia in the Raw (the big bag, not the packets) has maltodextrin, not dextrose. Maltodextrin is still from corn, of course, but you can't use JUST plain stevia for baking because it's so much sweeter than sugar, you need so much less of it, which throws off the texture of recipes, so they need the maltodextrin as a bulking agent.

I noticed Truvia has recently released a baking blend as opposed to just packets, but it is something like 75% Truvia and 25% sugar, so it's just stupid :P

Dextrose in SALT packets is just insane
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