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Old 11-28-2012, 09:17 AM   #841
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I posted this elsewhere but think it should be here.

I am trying to get a feel for whether it is important to split the daily carbs/protein up equally throughout the day. Today I ate 12 carbs and 22 protein for breakfast. I would then plan to eat 0 carbs 22 protein for lunch and repeat the breakfast concentrations. Of course with fat at each meal. Would that many carbs/protein together at one meal be too much?
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:30 AM   #842
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WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cici52 View Post
I posted this elsewhere but think it should be here.

I am trying to get a feel for whether it is important to split the daily carbs/protein up equally throughout the day. Today I ate 12 carbs and 22 protein for breakfast. I would then plan to eat 0 carbs 22 protein for lunch and repeat the breakfast concentrations. Of course with fat at each meal. Would that many carbs/protein together at one meal be too much?
From what I've seen I don't know that it's super important to split evenly (I don't). You probably wouldn't want to eat it all in one meal, but many people split their protein in two meals, and I get 2/3 of my protein in my evening meal.

If you're not getting results then it would be one thing to tweak, but I wouldn't get too hung up on it when you're starting out.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:46 AM   #843
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Kristn- thanks for your input on blood ketone levels- I assumed that I would notice a change in my ketones like the next day- but it sounds like you don't notice a change for about 2 days- that makes more sense.

Welcome to all the lurkers coming out!
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:49 AM   #844
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WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
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Originally Posted by Gretalyn View Post
Hi Everyone! May I join in?

I must confess that I haven't read this entire thread. This is a long thread! Also, I don't check my blood ketone levels. I just found, before I'd ever heard of Phinney and Volek, that eating low-carb, mod-protein, and high-fat worked for me. I eat about 30-35 grams of carbs most days, about 70-100 grams of protein (though I don't count that every day. should I?), and the rest (bulk) of my diet is fat. Based on the urine test strips, I do stay in a ketogenic state. And ketosis has been so hugely helpful to me in terms of improving my immune system and some other problems that I definitely plan to stay in this state for the rest of my days. So is that enough to make me an NK-er?

ETA: If I did the Phinney and Volek protein calculation right, my range is 62 - 104 grams of protein per day, so I think I'm generally right on target there with, I believe, about 80g being typical for me. I'd say my typical macronutrient calorie ratio is: 7C / 17P / 76F plus or minus a few percentage points of course.
Gretalyn! Sounds like NK to me. Am I reading it right that you're in maintenance?
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:10 AM   #845
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Hi to all!
Welcome Gretalyn and Brandilynn!
Cici, I split protein for all three main meals, or rather, when I eat three times. It works for me, so I feel even energy during the day.
Mary - take care of yourself, and check in with us from time to time.
Lindsay, back about 15 years ago, I was an over-trained person. Had injuries and stalled on weight losss. It's a "high" we get addicted to....Kristn had great advice, that's what I did, backed off all but resistance, added more walking.
Sophie, the chart I found was the same one that Kristn named in yesterdays post....I can't get it to post...and I recalled I think Buffy asking if we knew if higher numbers would speed up the weight loss. This from P/V called ketones millimolar, has 0-1.4 as nutritional ketosis; 1.5-3.0 as optimal ketosis; and >3 as diminishing returns; and >10 danger zone. Sounds like you are doing fine.
Hi Maureen, good to hear from you. Good info on the Vit D and Vit A....I haven't looked at mine in ages, just checked and I am good at 10,000 (this is per lab work ages back...)
Hi Wriggly, good to hear from you too! Wonderful update.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #846
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Well...I had my DEXA scan today, and although I am thrilled to have had the experience/opportunity, I have to admit the results were very unpleasant. I went into it telling myself, don't freak out if it's 30%...you know you have a long way to go, so be realistic. Needless to say, finding out that my total body fat percentage is 37.1% was a rude awakening!

To help give some perspective on why this was so disturbing: I've been seriously exercising for the past 10 years and love doing advanced, intense workouts as often as possible. I don't play sports but have been somewhat proud of becoming much more of an athletic person at 32 than I ever was in my highly sedentary childhood and teenage years. Some might call me...a bit obsessed with fitness, and I guess I couldn't argue with that. Also during the past 10 years, I've continually tried to eat "right," although I understood that concept differently at different times (usually as "low carb, high protein" but sometimes just portion control/very low calorie).

So, finding out my body fat percentage is absolutely in the overweight category and probably not far from obese...well, to say the least, I feel even more motivated than ever before to get this right and start making progress. I'd love to go back six months from now and find out I've made it to 25% or less. I'm tempted to schedule that six month appointment now, so I have a date set "in stone" on the calendar. Maybe a 12% fat loss in six months is not an unreasonable goal.

At least the good news is my bone density is fantastic!

Oh - I wanted to share an image of one of the pages of my DEXA scan results in case anyone is interested in seeing what one looks like. I will try to upload it and link to the image in a post here shortly.

Edited to add the image link...not sure if this will work!
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/me...520-image.html
Thanks so much for sharing the image with us and all the rest. Wow, you really have a great attitude! Now I really see the importance of doing this. I guess you really don't know until you measure.

You mention that you may redo the test in 6 mos- I wonder, is there not a concern about radiation exposure?

btw its really great that you bone density is fine. So at least you know all the fitness paid off in that way. That's huge.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:21 AM   #847
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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
This is just my opinion, but I think you may be overtraining. I have a similar background and I found myself overtraining a few years back. While I loved working out (and the "high" that I got from it), eventually it took a toll on me and I actually had to take time off from all training before starting back slowly. Hopefully you're not there yet and with a few tweaks you should be able to decrease your BF% and increase your LBM. I agree with Anjikun that you should concentrate on heavy weight lifting while giving yourself lots of recovery time between workouts. You might be able to do one metcon or HIIT session a week, but be careful with these.

I have found Mark Sisson's training advice invaluable. Lift heavy things 2-3x/week, Sprint (or HIIT) 1x/week, and do low level activity every day.

I am also a fan of Robb Wolf, and although I don't follow his dietary advice, he is very adament about overtraining, especially if you have autoimmune issues (if I remember correctly you have psoriasis?).
I just wanted to say thanks to you and Anjikun for the advice about overtraining and giving me a couple of names to google.

I actually just started a new program this week that will reduce the amount of my met con and HIIT workouts, even though that's not the reason I started the program. I am just addicted to getting new workout DVDs and systems!
This week I started Body Beast - which is definitely geared toward lifting heavy and spending less time on cardio! I love it so far (except for all the super-macho "I want to get HUGE!" chatter), and it only includes one day of cardio per week, if you follow the calendar. But I felt that yesterday's leg workout was intense enough to qualify as cardio, so I guess that means I will be sort-of doing cardio twice a week in this program. So far, it seems to be structured very well...you only hit each muscle group once a week, so it shouldn't contribute to overtraining.....that is, as long as I can stick to the scheduled 5 workouts per week without adding in an extra one on Saturdays!!!

Also Kristn - I am amazed at how well you can remember details about so many of the people who post here in these sprawling threads. You're right, I do have psoriasis...and even though the medicine I'm taking has knocked it out almost completely, I'd like to do whatever I can to ensure it stays that way! That sounds like another strong motivation to avoid overtraining. I should also keep in mind that my "inexplicable" weight gain took place while I was doing all these intense workouts 6 days a week...it's just hard for me to take that step away from "hardcore" to "moderation" because it feels like wimping out, you know??

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Old 11-28-2012, 11:26 AM   #848
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Unstrungharp, that is very interesting. Just curious, if you do the calculations based on weight/height/etc measurements what do you come up with?
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:32 AM   #849
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Kristn, thanks for the reply. I won't be too concerned for now.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:34 AM   #850
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Gretalyn!
Thank you!

Quote:
Am I reading it right that you're in maintenance?
Yes, the first time I did LC back in 2004, I did it for health reasons and not for weight loss - I was young and slender back then! I stayed on it for three years, but then did this stupid on again, off again thing for a long time after that. One day I stepped on the scale and it said 148 - a number I had only seen once before, when I was 8 months pregnant! I decided I had to do something, and luckily knew exactly what to do. I dropped the weight relatively quickly and easily, and I've been maintaining at about 131-132 for, hmmm, I think over a year now. It's not as low as I was back when I was young and skinny, but I believe it's a healthier weight for me (I have more muscle tone now LC-ing at almost 40 than I did when I was 25!).
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:51 PM   #851
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This week I started Body Beast - which is definitely geared toward lifting heavy and spending less time on cardio! I love it so far (except for all the super-macho "I want to get HUGE!" chatter), and it only includes one day of cardio per week, if you follow the calendar. But I felt that yesterday's leg workout was intense enough to qualify as cardio, so I guess that means I will be sort-of doing cardio twice a week in this program. So far, it seems to be structured very well...you only hit each muscle group once a week, so it shouldn't contribute to overtraining.....that is, as long as I can stick to the scheduled 5 workouts per week without adding in an extra one on Saturdays!!!
Body Beast--well one thing we can say for sure, the name totally rocks! Are you sure you don't want to change your user name to that???

From what I've read (and listened to, podcast-wise), you are right that hitting each muscle group only once a week could be a step in the right direction. However, it really depends on if you're recovering. People are so different, and age makes a big difference too. I know FOR SURE that if I did a really intense work out (especially a leg work out) on one day and then hit another muscle group hard the next day (and the next, and the next), I would not be able to recover sufficiently. But I am 47 (and obviously not in the greatest of health right now ). However, the young body building guys that frequent the gym I go to (at least until very recently, as I've had to stop going for now) might find that a piece of cake (and would gain a ton of muscle, but they also guzzle chocolate milk and power drinks !

Until recently, I was the woman at the gym (during the period I go) lifting the heaviest by far (mostly basic compound lifts: deadlift, bench, press) doing 5 sets of 5 (which emphasizes strength over mass, for mass I think it's more like 8-12 x 3 or 4). But for both, I think, it's extremely important to rest enough between sets (it should not be cardio) and also make sure that you are recovering. I got to the point where I could only do two days a week with good recovery (and I was doing no cardio) but I was lifting really heavy when I was there (and gaining strength/muscle, for sure, until recently when I got sick).

Also, IMHO (and again, I am no expert) trying to do a mass gain on a very low calorie diet is really not a good idea (I don't remember what your calories are looking like, I just know that some people on here are pretty low calorie, so I thought I would mention it )
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:56 PM   #852
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Well, gee, as you can see, I'm already a bit addicted to this thread--even though I'm in NK suspension for now.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:37 PM   #853
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I need to catch up on this thread, so sorry to be posting out of nowhere. I have been doing NK on JUDDD up days and mostly lean protein on JUDDD down days, and it's working well for me. Anyway, I wanted to post some information about the limitations of urine testing for ketones, compared to blood testing, from the newsletter of American Diabetes Warehouse. This is taken from "Why Test for Ketones: Is Blood or Urine More Accurate?" by Roberta Kleinman.

"Why test for ketones? A study published in Diabetes Metabolism in April 2007 tested 529 patients comparing capillary blood verses urine ketone testing and found that capillary blood was more accurate in diagnosing DKA. Another study published in Diabetes Medicine (Volume 23, March 2006) concluded that young people with Type 1 Diabetes should use blood testing over urine testing at home for convenience, accuracy and to decrease ER visits, hospitalizations and costs.

Reasons for ketone blood testing:
Accuracy - Certain medications can give false readings when testing with urine. Levadopa taken for Parkinson's or Restless Leg Syndrome can cause a false negative result. Ace Inhibitors such as Lisinopril can cause false positives when using urine tests containing nitroprussides. Highly colored urine as when taking Pyridium (for painful urinary tract infections - turns urine purple) can cause a false reading as well as using a medication called Depakote. Urine can be inaccurate due to sitting in the bladder for an extended period or remaining in the ambient air for a long time. Urine concentration can cause inaccurate results. Menstrual blood in the sample will cause inaccuracy. Excess ascorbic acid or Vitamin C can cause a false positive result. Urine test strip reagents lose potency when exposed to air; bottles of strips open for 90 days can cause inaccurate results. Blood strips are individually wrapped in tin foil packaging.
Convenience - Getting a urine sample on demand (DKA causes dehydration) or in the middle of the night is much harder than pricking a finger especially when dealing with a small child; a sleeping child may not need to be disturbed. A bathroom may not even be available if out and about. Blood testing with a meter allows for increased compliance for ketone testing."

The article assumes that the reader is testing for ketoacidosis, but acknowledges "There are dietary ketones which are formed on a low- or no-carbohydrate diet with a high fat/protein intake; when blood sugars are controlled these ketones are not dangerous."

I hope this is of interest to someone here. Good luck to all the NK folks here; I'll try to catch up on the thread eventually.

Last edited by svenskamae; 11-28-2012 at 04:39 PM..
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:48 PM   #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnstrungHarp View Post
This week I started Body Beast - which is definitely geared toward lifting heavy and spending less time on cardio! I love it so far (except for all the super-macho "I want to get HUGE!" chatter), and it only includes one day of cardio per week, if you follow the calendar. But I felt that yesterday's leg workout was intense enough to qualify as cardio, so I guess that means I will be sort-of doing cardio twice a week in this program. So far, it seems to be structured very well...you only hit each muscle group once a week, so it shouldn't contribute to overtraining.....that is, as long as I can stick to the scheduled 5 workouts per week without adding in an extra one on Saturdays!!!

Also Kristn - I am amazed at how well you can remember details about so many of the people who post here in these sprawling threads. You're right, I do have psoriasis...and even though the medicine I'm taking has knocked it out almost completely, I'd like to do whatever I can to ensure it stays that way! That sounds like another strong motivation to avoid overtraining. I should also keep in mind that my "inexplicable" weight gain took place while I was doing all these intense workouts 6 days a week...it's just hard for me to take that step away from "hardcore" to "moderation" because it feels like wimping out, you know??

-----
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I know what you mean about wimping out--but you have also noticed that these intense workouts aren't getting you closer to your goal. I know it's hard but try sticking to only 5 days for a while. And there is a very smart strategy of taking a deload week every once in a while (google it). When my DH and I went on vacation it was hard getting back into kettlebells, but we've noticed a significant increase in performance since we took the time off.

Try to remember that recovery is as important as the workout--without it you won't see the results that you're looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anjikun View Post

Until recently, I was the woman at the gym (during the period I go) lifting the heaviest by far (mostly basic compound lifts: deadlift, bench, press) doing 5 sets of 5 (which emphasizes strength over mass, for mass I think it's more like 8-12 x 3 or 4). But for both, I think, it's extremely important to rest enough between sets (it should not be cardio) and also make sure that you are recovering. I got to the point where I could only do two days a week with good recovery (and I was doing no cardio) but I was lifting really heavy when I was there (and gaining strength/muscle, for sure, until recently when I got sick).
This was me too! In fact I spent a few years as a personal trainer and practically lived in the gym. I loved introducing women to free-weights and compound lifts.

Quote:
Also, IMHO (and again, I am no expert) trying to do a mass gain on a very low calorie diet is really not a good idea (I don't remember what your calories are looking like, I just know that some people on here are pretty low calorie, so I thought I would mention it )
This is a huge question for me too! I think that you can maintain LBM, but to gain while losing? But Jimmy Moore gained LBM while losing on NK with a relatively low level of protein (80-90g/day and he's well over 6' tall).

Since NK is so new it's really hard to know what's possible.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:50 PM   #855
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I hope this is of interest to someone here. Good luck to all the NK folks here; I'll try to catch up on the thread eventually.
Thanks for posting this Sven! I'm glad that the combo of JUDD and NK is working for you! Please post an update if you have a chance.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:52 PM   #856
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Hi Maureen- as far as the IFing, there are people who say anything caloric does not count as IFing. All say that while you are sleeping- you are IFing. There are those that say having CO or HWC in their coffee in the AM doesn't mean you are not IFing, but I think most would say that you aren't IFing once you drink/eat anything with calories- does that make sense?
Dear Sasonnier
Thanks for the feedback. After perusing the postings last week. I realized that when I have the CO in the morning I really don't want to eat until Lunch- I decided that might work better as I really want to focus on 2 meals a day and would like a fiar amount of protein at each. I am not intentionally trying to IF just curious if the long period before having solids counts. Either way I think the CO really helps support making better food choices and certainly takes the edge off the appetite.

I think that I am like Kristn in that I must be very adept at taking protein and converting it to glycose. I am almost never over indulge in carbs but certainly struggle with limiting protein.

I am so happy you are testing so high for the ketones- I only ever test first thing in the morning and the whole time I have never gotten over a 1.0. Way to go!

Also Dietdoctor.com had an interesting little piece on artificial sweetners.


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Old 11-28-2012, 04:57 PM   #857
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Dear Anjikun
I hope you feel better. I am rooting for you to find the answer to these horrible symptoms. Take good care of yourself.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:01 PM   #858
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Dear Tablis:
I just happened to catch a show on Dr Radio where they were discussing winter colds and the Flu. Of course Vitamin d deficiencies came up in the context of short days. Glad to share the info. I hope it can help!
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:17 PM   #859
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Great Post! Interesting about the impact of certain medications.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #860
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How many of you eat mayo? How many make there own mayo?i love tuna but hate to make mayo sometimes.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:23 PM   #861
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Well, gee, as you can see, I'm already a bit addicted to this thread--even though I'm in NK suspension for now.
And we want you to stay with us! I am starting to feel guilty for not exercising as much as most of you. Perhaps I will consider a New Years Resolution (ouch!) to add weights back gently. The daily walk has gone to 30 quick minutes with dark on our heels now by 6pm.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:26 PM   #862
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I need to catch up on this thread, so sorry to be posting out of nowhere. ."

I hope this is of interest to someone here. Good luck to all the NK folks here; I'll try to catch up on the thread eventually.
Hi Sven! Very interesting, good to hear from you!
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:59 PM   #863
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MCT Oil

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Joe, just curious as to what the benefit of adding MCT oil is? I eat a LOT of CO now, do I need the addition of MCT for added benefit? I know they are similiar.
MCT Oil is fractionated from Coconut Oil and is a medium chain fatty acid not a long chain fatty acid like Coconut Oil. MCT oil does not require pancreatic lipase to be digested/metabolized.

I find that it raises my ketone levels and is VERY effective in reducing my appetite and has a neutral flavor (unlike coconut oil)

Here is a blog post (from a non-comercial health blogger) who details some of the benefits of MCT oil:
Animal Pharm: Body Fat Loss: Saturated Fat Kicks the Cr*pola Out Of Olive Oil

Oh and I just bought Nature's Way Liquid Coconut Oil - (from NETRITION.COM of course) which is labeled as "93% MCTs" It only has a slight coconut flavor...

Peace

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Old 11-28-2012, 07:03 PM   #864
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How many of you eat mayo? How many make there own mayo?i love tuna but hate to make mayo sometimes.
Hi Becky
If you have an immersion blender, Mayo is so easy to make that it's almost effortless. You just throw everything in together and blast it with the immersion blender-- no more drizzling the oil in slowly and carefully while living in fear that your mayo won't emulsify.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:21 PM   #865
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Hi Becky
If you have an immersion blender, Mayo is so easy to make that it's almost effortless. You just throw everything in together and blast it with the immersion blender-- no more drizzling the oil in slowly and carefully while living in fear that your mayo won't emulsify.
Ditto that.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:45 PM   #866
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Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
Quote:
Three year old children do not process consequences in that manner and do not have the cognitional ability to know that repeated seizures can and will leave them impaired. It is ridiculous to suggest that a 3 yr. old child will comply with a ketogenic diet because they don't want to suffer the consequences.

I have known type 1 diabetic children who were pubescent and they were far from compliant and risked their health in some pretty scary ways. The same can be said of adult type ones.
This brings about the vision of the virtual slap in the head and 'really'? I have struggled a number of times with various methods and even sprayed the ingredients around my entire kitchen (self included) using a whisk attached to my immersion blender! But I am suddenly getting the message that just the stick and no gently adding of oil is necessary!!! Thank you!! I wasn't feeling like I was getting the hang of it!!
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:10 AM   #867
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Location: GA
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Stats: 5'4 141/130.2/113
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Start Date: March 20, 2012
Hey yall, I posted this in the other thread and was directed here to repost-- does anyone know if you can still send away somewhere for the free meter? If so, can you point me in the right direction? Thanks :-)
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:10 AM   #868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One maur time View Post
Good Evening Everyone
I just wanted to share an interesting tidbit I heard on Dr Radio on XM. They said when supplementing with vitamin D be sure that you are getting sufficient vitamin A- over supplementation of D could cause a vitamin A sufficiency. I looked at my multi and it has 5000 Iu's of vitamin A. But each of us should check just in case. FYI the recommended minimum for vitamin A was 1000 IU'S .
Further to this, I've been reading up a little before I start upping the Vitamin A as I am taking lots of Vitamin D now in an attempt to raise my dismal levels.

I just read an article on the Vitamin D council website that says "the benefits of vitamin D are almost entirely negated in those with the highest vitamin A intake" So I guess this might take some more research before we jump into extra vitamin a supplements.

It goes on to say that many people take cod liver oil which has enough vitamin a in it to block all the vitamin d. They actullay state "Avoid cod liver oil like the poison it is and check your multivitamins". Thats a pretty strong statement.

I don't know how reliable this is but you make want to take a look at the study.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:17 AM   #869
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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WOE: NK
Start Date: 10/29/2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzcase View Post
Hey yall, I posted this in the other thread and was directed here to repost-- does anyone know if you can still send away somewhere for the free meter? If so, can you point me in the right direction? Thanks :-)
Can't post links on this forum. There are two free meters that I know of. I think they are both still free.

google free abbott keytone meter and you will find a hit near the top that starts with myfreestyle... they have three free meters to chose from take the one that does both glucose and ketones (precision xtra).

if you go to American Diabetes Wholesale and search for novamax plus there is a one time only option to get a free ketone meter with a purchase of a 10 pack of ketone testing strips. Its bundled together and costs 23.99 which is the cost of the strips alone.

good luck.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:05 AM   #870
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Start Date: March 20, 2012
Tablis, thanks for the response. Much appreciated!
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