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Old 11-17-2012, 05:35 PM   #511
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WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerryKate View Post
I'm having a bit of a freak-out here...I went out for chinese food with my family and I'm having a hard time figuring out my calories/carbs. I had egg fu yung with chicken, and wonton soup, and the information on the 'net about the macros is all over the place. I'm either really high or just barely ok. This is why I try to avoid eating at restaurants.
Chinese is one of the hardest to eat LC. I believe egg fu yung is usually a good LC choice. The wontons in the soup were probably the highest carb item of everything you ate.

I also stress out about eating at restaurants, but if you want to make this a WOL not just a diet then figuring these things out is important. At least that's what I tell myself when I'm stressing out.

Quote:
OTOH, when I came home from said chinese restaurant, my new novamax was waiting for me, so I ripped it open and did my first test. 1.9, at 3:30 p.m. after eating chinese food an hour before. So...not sure what that means, but for now I think I'm ok. I may wait a day before doing another test since I'm assuming tomorrow morning will be low on the ketones.
Congratulations on getting a great reading on your first ketone test!
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:39 PM   #512
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Welcome Birdie and congrats MerryKate, what a great first ketone test!!!
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:42 PM   #513
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Ok, my latest concerns. I am not hungry at all, didn't think I would ever utter those words, and having trouble getting enough calories in. But, I am eating a LOT of fat to try to keep them up, but struggling on the protein. I get about 2 oz done and push to get 3 oz of meat, one egg is more than enough. I assume this will pass and I will get back into a hungry phase. And, I am soooo tired. Not sure if it is fall and getting dark so early but I am getting more than 8 hours sleep and by early evening I am ready to sit and read or watch tv, and then seem to dose off. Hope this passes as well, maybe my body adjusting to the change in WOE and weight loss. I am taking all the supplements that have been recommended, thinking of asking my Dr. for some B12 injections if this doesn't pass soon.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:51 PM   #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
Ok, my latest concerns. I am not hungry at all, didn't think I would ever utter those words, and having trouble getting enough calories in. But, I am eating a LOT of fat to try to keep them up, but struggling on the protein. I get about 2 oz done and push to get 3 oz of meat, one egg is more than enough. I assume this will pass and I will get back into a hungry phase. And, I am soooo tired. Not sure if it is fall and getting dark so early but I am getting more than 8 hours sleep and by early evening I am ready to sit and read or watch tv, and then seem to dose off. Hope this passes as well, maybe my body adjusting to the change in WOE and weight loss. I am taking all the supplements that have been recommended, thinking of asking my Dr. for some B12 injections if this doesn't pass soon.
Buffy--how many calories and protein grams are you able to get in?
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:07 PM   #515
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The lowest I went on calories this week was 1000 something, and I pushed to get that. My lowest protein day was like 23. But, I am pushing and pushing and getting up to 1400 -1600 and to most, that is plenty I know, but I am working at trying to eat 2000 calories a day and 77 gr of protein. I tried it that way last week and had a good week, but just am struggling this week to eat, have never felt this little of an appetite before. Ketones as same as usual? My major concern though is how tired I am feeling. I know from past experience that the hunger will rear up again. I just wonder if this tiredness is from adjusting to now really getting into NK? body adjusting? Or, I am getting old, maybe that is all it is
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:19 PM   #516
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(Haven't figured out how you guys put the post you are responding to in your post.)

Buffy, I know I haven't been 'round these parts long, and I haven't learned a lot about all of you, so forgive me if you've covered this somewhere else, but are you doing any exercise? That might help with your energy level and appetite. Even just a 20 minute low intensity walk. And making sure water intake is consistent and high helps too.

I've really tried hard to eat as cleanly as possible and look for as many ways to avoid meds, "fillers" (like things found in vitamin supplements), and artificial means of keeping myself healthy.

Having said that, I am very interested in the talk going on here about supplements (especially D & C). I'm a picky eater and sometimes eat the same foods a few days in a row to keep down grocery costs, and living in NE with indoor job keeps me out of sun (last D test was low). But as I've said, I'm equally concerned that the brand I choose not have the ingredients I'm trying to avoid.

Hopefully you'll find your groove again soon, Buffy, and I look forward to hearing everyone's take on their supplements.

One question for anyone: K2...anyone taking fermented cod liver oil? Read about it in Practical Paleo, and was thinking of ordering from Green Pastures online. I eat a lot of pastured butter (KerryGold) so wondering if I get enough from that source.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:49 PM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
The lowest I went on calories this week was 1000 something, and I pushed to get that. My lowest protein day was like 23. But, I am pushing and pushing and getting up to 1400 -1600 and to most, that is plenty I know, but I am working at trying to eat 2000 calories a day and 77 gr of protein. I tried it that way last week and had a good week, but just am struggling this week to eat, have never felt this little of an appetite before. Ketones as same as usual? My major concern though is how tired I am feeling. I know from past experience that the hunger will rear up again. I just wonder if this tiredness is from adjusting to now really getting into NK? body adjusting? Or, I am getting old, maybe that is all it is
I hope that you feel more energy soon! If you're not going too low I would think that listening to your body makes sense. Why try to eat more than you are hungry for? I'm sure your appetite will return soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edgemont View Post
(Haven't figured out how you guys put the post you are responding to in your post.)
The little "quote" button in the lower right hand corner of the post that you want to quote. You can quote multiple posts by using the " button right next to it.

Quote:
One question for anyone: K2...anyone taking fermented cod liver oil? Read about it in Practical Paleo, and was thinking of ordering from Green Pastures online. I eat a lot of pastured butter (KerryGold) so wondering if I get enough from that source.
I take a K2 supplement (a holdover from my days doing the leptin reset). I don't eat that much butter and I can't quite bring myself to do the fermented cod liver oil.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:17 PM   #518
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There have been several posts on both High Fat and NK this past week with questions on potassium, magnesium.....there are several minerals that are valuable, they help in several areas. While wasting time for a worthless virtual server to return to working.....I went into my library to read:

Your body is always at work trying to maintain a healthy pH balance. The best way for your body to access the minerals it needs is through the food you consume or, through supplements. If the pH level drops below 7.2— even by a very small amount — the body goes to work neutralizing the extra acid. To do that, the body needs alkaline minerals like calcium, manganese, magnesium, iron, and potassium. When your body cannot find the alkaline it needs in your diet, it will steal minerals from your bones or your body's tissues. And this is very dangerous, leading to major problems including: heart, kidney, and brain issues as well as skin and bone problems.

Potassium works with sodium to maintain the body's water balance. In "more basic primitive cultures", salt intake is about seven times lower than potassium intake, but in Western modern cultures like ours, salt intake is about three times higher than potassium intake. When sodium is high, especially relative to potassium, the body holds on to a lot of water. This is why your blood pressure goes up when you eat salt, and why it goes down when you consume more potassium. Consuming potassium also lowers bloat, not to mention your risk for stroke by double digit percentages. Low potassium levels may cause heart disease as well.

Taking potassium supplements with any of several different blood pressure medications (including ACE inhibitors, diuretics, or beta-blockers) could lead to dangerously high potassium levels, a condition known as hyperkalemia. Symptoms include nausea, weakness, heart arrhythmia, and fatigue. If you're taking blood pressure medications, talk with your health-care provider before adding potassium supplements.

The best way to to ensure you're getting enough potassium is to consume rich sources, supplements are not always optimal. A few examples of potassium-rich produce include:
Figs, avocado, sun dried tomatoes, pistachios, apricots, winter squash (had some tonight, roasted with olive oil and garlic!), almonds, pumpkin kernels, bananas, peaches, pumpkin, green leafy vegetables, like swiss chard and kale, spinach, orange juice, nuts in general, beans of any kind.

You can take potassium supplements, and with NK limiting veggies you may need to consider to keep the pH in balance — but increasing fruit and vegetable intake also provides a long list of healthful nutrients, including vitamins, minerals, and fiber. If you have high blood pressure, six key nutrients that anyone with high blood pressure should consider taking:
• Potassium: is very helpful for lowering blood pressure, as well as for proper muscle function. Recommended up to 4,000 mg per day, but most of that should come from food sources. In addition, you may want to take supplements. These are typically sold in 99 mg capsules or tablets. 99 mg twice per day, 2 total per day.
•Magnesium: 350 to 500 mg per day for most folks; this mineral is heart healthy, helps boost healthy glucose metabolism, protects and enhances nerve function, and supports healthy cell membranes. It is also helpful for muscle relaxation, reduces headaches, and aids those with disturbed sleep patterns. Good sources of magnesium include almonds, Brazil nuts, artichokes, and spinach. My favorite heart doc told me this week that the magnesium chloride is best, but I can't find that one available locally....the other -ate ones are good too.
•Calcium: 1,000 to 1,500 mg per day
•Omega-3 fatty acids: 2 to 4 grams of fish oil per day (clean source)
•Vitamin D3: 1,500 IU per day (I take 5000 IU before noon time)
•CoQ10: 100 to 200 mg per day (get the right kind...ubquinol)
* Vitamin C -- A major 10 year study showed that the lower the levels of Vit C, the higher a person's BP and risk of stroke. On esudy found that taking as little as 250 mg of Vit C daily slashed the risk of high BP by almost half. That said, 1000mg a day is usually recommended for base line health. Which is also valuable for anti-aging, it protects our telomeres! And it fights infections.

Buffy, any kind is usually great, I get the 1000mg capsule when I can find, or the pressed capsule. I do not like the chewables one, sour oh-my! And they have 1-2 carbs each!

Be sure to remember to check with your physician if you are taking any medications that may have counter-indicators with any supplements! Call the nurse, she can give you quick-time! You can also go to the website of the company making the medications, they provide all that fun stuff too!
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:46 PM   #519
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Hi everyone!
Welcome Edgemont! Sounds like you are doing great. K2 is good, I cannot even bring myself to take fermented cod liver oil! I eat a lot of butter, but if you think it has positive potential, then go for it!
Hi Shelley! No guilt for our bacon!
Hi Becky! Even your posts sound like you have so much more energy and are happy!
Tablis, that is good news on DH. I love when folks find changing to LC/HF will change their lives and avoid dangerous meds! Vitamin C is such an incredible thing for us. I take 1000x3 times a day, after each meal. If I feel a bug coming on, I double it for three to four days. I take the dosage I do since I don't eat many fruits right now...our citrus trees will be coming in with fruit ready in December, but if I eat too many my mouth pains me so! Take a minimum of 500-1000 a day is what I would start with...that should not bother your stomach. Vit D3 I take 5000 right now, since SAD is setting in; but normally we get warm sun about 9 months a year, so I go outside for at least 30 min, and that gives me free natural at about 15000 IU! Read the post about potassium....if you can eat the natural sources that is best, I supplement two 99 most days, try to hit 3, but I don't always remember to take it at lunch. That is my personal need, and I have normal BP, take no medications. Magnesium is also based on your need, do you eat sources? I started at 200, and went to 800 total for the day supplement. My basis for this amount is heart risk in family, I have none and want to keep it that way; migraine headaches; and sleep disturbances. It has helped everything. No migraines in months!
Buffy, I reponded in the other post on Vit C....I am concerned about your fatigue....if you go another week like that, better call the doc. Is your protein up? Sounds like your body is slowing metabolism if you are at 1000 cal.
Kristn, when did you first notice the thyroid issues? And I do not know how you stay so healthy in the PNW without our wonderful sun....which can be rough in the summer, but I would be lost without it!
Hi Birdie...welcome! so glad you joined us. Yea! I dream of 115....but I am 5'4", and will be fine at 120. Funny, 128 is my "panic line"! I bounce from 125-128...over and over and over.
MerryKate, I have chinese once a year now, I just blow up like a balloon! And the sugar is awful!
Note to all: my aggravating tummy ache-heartburn has been mostly cured with.....(feeling stupid for not doing this sooner)....1 teaspoon of Braggs ACV, followed very quickly by 1 teaspoon of local honey. It's a known "cure" for GERD symptoms..Amazing relief.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:12 AM   #520
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Thanks for all the responses on the supplements-very helpful.
And the Magnesium Citrate seems to have kicked in on the constipation front
(or should I say back?) thanks all.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:17 AM   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
The lowest I went on calories this week was 1000 something, and I pushed to get that. My lowest protein day was like 23. But, I am pushing and pushing and getting up to 1400 -1600 and to most, that is plenty I know, but I am working at trying to eat 2000 calories a day and 77 gr of protein. I tried it that way last week and had a good week, but just am struggling this week to eat, have never felt this little of an appetite before. Ketones as same as usual? My major concern though is how tired I am feeling. I know from past experience that the hunger will rear up again. I just wonder if this tiredness is from adjusting to now really getting into NK? body adjusting? Or, I am getting old, maybe that is all it is
Hey buffy I have no advice bc I'm new here but I hope you get this sorted out soon.
It is pretty amazing the affect this WOE has on appetite! If I go out of my carb limit I can eat the whole house and still have room for more but as soon as I start limiting my carbs I have to remember to eat!
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:54 AM   #522
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Edgemont- Welcome! I think we used to be a member of your coop, one of the best in the world (PSFC)- until we moved :-(

Buffy- I dream of days with little to no appetite...but alas...

I just received my meter over the weekend- now I need to order the ketone strips! Does anyone know where I can get the ketone strips the cheapest for the nova max meter? 0.7 is my first ketone reading!!! It's hard to get a solid drop of blood for the meter. I have the lancet on 3, should it be higher? Now, does that mean I am keto- adapted? or just that my ketones are where they need to be to achieve keto-adaptation?

I focused on limiting my carbs to as little to zero as possible and did really well so far these past few days- yay. Now, i want to try and level out my macros to where I was a few weeks ago- focusing on getting the right amount of protein/fats/carbs- and sitting with the hunger. I want to really try and get past this hump of getting keto- adapted.

Welcome Birdie!

Kristn...thanks for explaining the quote thing- but I think I need someone to walk me through it- even though I'm sure it's very easy. I think I'll just keep doing it this way...figuring out the quote thing now will take up too much of my headspace- as silly as that sounds
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:34 AM   #523
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In the book 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living' Phinney and Volek specifically say that salt intake is very important and give actual parameters to the amount that should be taken. That is why the recommendation of 2 cups of chicken broth is made all over the place - for the salt and other benefits but for the salt. To counteract the dietetic effects and people's salt phobia.

Here is a great article from the NYT published just a few months ago....well worth the read.

Salt, We Misjudged You


By GARY TAUBES
Published: June 2, 2012
Oakland, Calif.
THE first time I questioned the conventional wisdom on the nature of a healthy diet, I was in my salad days, almost 40 years ago, and the subject was salt. Researchers were claiming that salt supplementation was unnecessary after strenuous exercise, and this advice was being passed on by health reporters. All I knew was that I had played high school football in suburban Maryland, sweating profusely through double sessions in the swamplike 90-degree days of August. Without salt pills, I couldn’t make it through a two-hour practice; I couldn’t walk across the parking lot afterward without cramping.
While sports nutritionists have since come around to recommend that we should indeed replenish salt when we sweat it out in physical activity, the message that we should avoid salt at all other times remains strong. Salt consumption is said to raise blood pressure, cause hypertension and increase the risk of premature death. This is why the Department of Agriculture’s dietary guidelines still consider salt Public Enemy No. 1, coming before fats, sugars and alcohol. It’s why the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has suggested that reducing salt consumption is as critical to long-term health as quitting cigarettes.
And yet, this eat-less-salt argument has been surprisingly controversial — and difficult to defend. Not because the food industry opposes it, but because the actual evidence to support it has always been so weak.
When I spent the better part of a year researching the state of the salt science back in 1998 — already a quarter century into the eat-less-salt recommendations — journal editors and public health administrators were still remarkably candid in their assessment of how flimsy the evidence was implicating salt as the cause of hypertension.
“You can say without any shadow of a doubt,” as I was told then by Drummond Rennie, an editor for The Journal of the American Medical Association, that the authorities pushing the eat-less-salt message had “made a commitment to salt education that goes way beyond the scientific facts.”
While, back then, the evidence merely failed to demonstrate that salt was harmful, the evidence from studies published over the past two years actually suggests that restricting how much salt we eat can increase our likelihood of dying prematurely. Put simply, the possibility has been raised that if we were to eat as little salt as the U.S.D.A. and the C.D.C. recommend, we’d be harming rather than helping ourselves.
WHY have we been told that salt is so deadly? Well, the advice has always sounded reasonable. It has what nutritionists like to call “biological plausibility.” Eat more salt and your body retains water to maintain a stable concentration of sodium in your blood. This is why eating salty food tends to make us thirsty: we drink more; we retain water. The result can be a temporary increase in blood pressure, which will persist until our kidneys eliminate both salt and water.
The scientific question is whether this temporary phenomenon translates to chronic problems: if we eat too much salt for years, does it raise our blood pressure, cause hypertension, then strokes, and then kill us prematurely? It makes sense, but it’s only a hypothesis. The reason scientists do experiments is to find out if hypotheses are true.
In 1972, when the National Institutes of Health introduced the National High Blood Pressure Education Program to help prevent hypertension, no meaningful experiments had yet been done. The best evidence on the connection between salt and hypertension came from two pieces of research. One was the observation that populations that ate little salt had virtually no hypertension. But those populations didn’t eat a lot of things — sugar, for instance — and any one of those could have been the causal factor. The second was a strain of “salt-sensitive” rats that reliably developed hypertension on a high-salt diet. The catch was that “high salt” to these rats was 60 times more than what the average American consumes.
Still, the program was founded to help prevent hypertension, and prevention programs require preventive measures to recommend. Eating less salt seemed to be the only available option at the time, short of losing weight. Although researchers quietly acknowledged that the data were “inconclusive and contradictory” or “inconsistent and contradictory” — two quotes from the cardiologist Jeremiah Stamler, a leading proponent of the eat-less-salt campaign, in 1967 and 1981 — publicly, the link between salt and blood pressure was upgraded from hypothesis to fact.
In the years since, the N.I.H. has spent enormous sums of money on studies to test the hypothesis, and those studies have singularly failed to make the evidence any more conclusive. Instead, the organizations advocating salt restriction today — the U.S.D.A., the Institute of Medicine, the C.D.C. and the N.I.H. — all essentially rely on the results from a 30-day trial of salt, the 2001 DASH-Sodium study. It suggested that eating significantly less salt would modestly lower blood pressure; it said nothing about whether this would reduce hypertension, prevent heart disease or lengthen life.
While influential, that trial was just one of many. When researchers have looked at all the relevant trials and tried to make sense of them, they’ve continued to support Dr. Stamler’s “inconsistent and contradictory” assessment. Last year, two such “meta-analyses” were published by the Cochrane Collaboration, an international nonprofit organization founded to conduct unbiased reviews of medical evidence. The first of the two reviews concluded that cutting back “the amount of salt eaten reduces blood pressure, but there is insufficient evidence to confirm the predicted reductions in people dying prematurely or suffering cardiovascular disease.” The second concluded that “we do not know if low salt diets improve or worsen health outcomes.”
The idea that eating less salt can worsen health outcomes may sound bizarre, but it also has biological plausibility and is celebrating its 40th anniversary this year, too. A 1972 paper in The New England Journal of Medicine reported that the less salt people ate, the higher their levels of a substance secreted by the kidneys, called renin, which set off a physiological cascade of events that seemed to end with an increased risk of heart disease. In this scenario: eat less salt, secrete more renin, get heart disease, die prematurely.
With nearly everyone focused on the supposed benefits of salt restriction, little research was done to look at the potential dangers. But four years ago, Italian researchers began publishing the results from a series of clinical trials, all of which reported that, among patients with heart failure, reducing salt consumption increased the risk of death.
Those trials have been followed by a slew of studies suggesting that reducing sodium to anything like what government policy refers to as a “safe upper limit” is likely to do more harm than good. These covered some 100,000 people in more than 30 countries and showed that salt consumption is remarkably stable among populations over time. In the United States, for instance, it has remained constant for the last 50 years, despite 40 years of the eat-less-salt message. The average salt intake in these populations — what could be called the normal salt intake — was one and a half teaspoons a day, almost 50 percent above what federal agencies consider a safe upper limit for healthy Americans under 50, and more than double what the policy advises for those who aren’t so young or healthy. This consistency, between populations and over time, suggests that how much salt we eat is determined by physiological demands, not diet choices.
One could still argue that all these people should reduce their salt intake to prevent hypertension, except for the fact that four of these studies — involving Type 1 diabetics, Type 2 diabetics, healthy Europeans and patients with chronic heart failure — reported that the people eating salt at the lower limit of normal were more likely to have heart disease than those eating smack in the middle of the normal range. Effectively what the 1972 paper would have predicted.
Proponents of the eat-less-salt campaign tend to deal with this contradictory evidence by implying that anyone raising it is a shill for the food industry and doesn’t care about saving lives. An N.I.H. administrator told me back in 1998 that to publicly question the science on salt was to play into the hands of the industry. “As long as there are things in the media that say the salt controversy continues,” he said, “they win.”
When several agencies, including the Department of Agriculture and the Food and Drug Administration, held a hearing last November to discuss how to go about getting Americans to eat less salt (as opposed to whether or not we should eat less salt), these proponents argued that the latest reports suggesting damage from lower-salt diets should simply be ignored. Lawrence Appel, an epidemiologist and a co-author of the DASH-Sodium trial, said “there is nothing really new.” According to the cardiologist Graham MacGregor, who has been promoting low-salt diets since the 1980s, the studies were no more than “a minor irritation that causes us a bit of aggravation.”
This attitude that studies that go against prevailing beliefs should be ignored on the basis that, well, they go against prevailing beliefs, has been the norm for the anti-salt campaign for decades. Maybe now the prevailing beliefs should be changed. The British scientist and educator Thomas Huxley, known as Darwin’s bulldog for his advocacy of evolution, may have put it best back in 1860. “My business,” he wrote, “is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations.”
A Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Independent Investigator in Health Policy Research and the author of “Why We Get Fat.”
A version of this op-ed appeared in print on June 3, 2012, on page SR8 of the New York edition with the headline: Salt, We Misjudged Y
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:10 AM   #524
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Thanks for all the responses on the supplements-very helpful.
And the Magnesium Citrate seems to have kicked in on the constipation front
(or should I say back?) thanks all.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:10 AM   #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
Hey buffy I have no advice bc I'm new here but I hope you get this sorted out soon.
It is pretty amazing the affect this WOE has on appetite! If I go out of my carb limit I can eat the whole house and still have room for more but as soon as I start limiting my carbs I have to remember to eat!
Yes, pretty amazing!
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:16 AM   #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasonnier View Post
Buffy- I dream of days with little to no appetite...but alas...

I just received my meter over the weekend- now I need to order the ketone strips! Does anyone know where I can get the ketone strips the cheapest for the nova max meter? 0.7 is my first ketone reading!!! It's hard to get a solid drop of blood for the meter. I have the lancet on 3, should it be higher? Now, does that mean I am keto- adapted? or just that my ketones are where they need to be to achieve keto-adaptation?

:
Sophia, I couldn't believe it would happen to me either!

Good question on keto-adapted, I have wondered the same thing and am not good at reading and digging out the scientific info in the books. When do we "know" we have become keto-adapted. Oh wise ones, please answer!! I have been in the zone of .5 to 2 for at least 2 months now and slowly losing weight and inches but not sure what all it means. 0.7 is a great first reading! I have found the American Diabetic Association is the best on price for the strips, be careful when ordering, it is so easy to get the ketone and the glucose strips mixed up. Kristn recently said they had 10% off, but not sure if that is still good or not, I had just ordered some when I saw that.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:21 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61 View Post
Note to all: my aggravating tummy ache-heartburn has been mostly cured with.....(feeling stupid for not doing this sooner)....1 teaspoon of Braggs ACV, followed very quickly by 1 teaspoon of local honey. It's a known "cure" for GERD symptoms..Amazing relief.
I swear SG, you read my mind!!! One of my current projects is to lower or eventually try to get off the gerd meds that I have taken for years now. First nexium, then prisolec generic b/c it was affordable. And, I get it by prescription rather than buying it OTC which is even more affordable. So, first I lowered my dose from 40mg a day to 20mg a day. Now, this month, I am trying to do 20mg every other day but wow, having some trouble. I knew about Bragg's and have been using it on the nights I don't take the prisolec, like last night, at bedtime and once during the night, but haven't been following it up with the honey. Do you find the honey is worth adding with the carbs? I have been using way more than 1 t of the ACV. Just take a swig, I am the only one using the bottle, and follow by swishing water in my mouth to get the acid off my teeth.

Thanks once again for sharing all your knowledge of supplements, you have really been a wealth of information
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:24 AM   #528
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Good article on salt Cathy!
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:38 AM   #529
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We have had a few people drop out of the NK WOE because of heart palpitations. I have always wondered if their sodium/potassium ratios or calcium levels were throw out of balance and that is what caused the palpitations.

Bone broth may be very important for some people starting this WOE until the body can up-regulate the proper pathways for mineral balance in the body.

Eclampsia is another condition were the body needs help to keep calcium levels normal until it can up-regulate those pathways for calcium utilization.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:43 AM   #530
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Check my macros, please?

First, thanks for the warm welcomes!

I think NK is the best way for me to go right now, as I am pretty sure my protein was too high after the first 6 months or so of doing low carb and causing my stalls and/or slow loss.

I spent a lot of time yesterday picking through posts related to NK and HF/MP/LC to try to determine the correct macro ratios, but later, in reading other posts, am now second guessing myself! Can someone take a look and tell me if these make sense for me? (And thank you very much!)

Macro Ratios: 1500 cals; 5.3% carb; 20% protein; 74.7% fat
Ideal 110 w/22% bf
Ideal LBM = 90.03 pounds

Daily calorie calc: 110 / 2.2 = 50 x 30 = 1500 cal/day

Daily protein calc: ideal 110 lbs / 2.2 = 50 x 1.5 = 75 g protein x 4 cal per gram x 75 grams = 300 protein cals
20% protein = 75 g x 4 cal = 300 cal / 1500 = 20%

Daily carb calc: 20 g carbs = x 20 grams = 80 carb cals
5.3% carb = 20g x 4 cal per gram = 80 cal / 1500 = 5.3 %

Fat: 100% - (20% + 5.3% = 25.3) = 74.7% fat or 124 g fat
fat = 9 cal per gram: 74.7% of 1500 cals - 1120

~ birdie
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:58 AM   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
I swear SG, you read my mind!!! One of my current projects is to lower or eventually try to get off the gerd meds that I have taken for years now. First nexium, then prisolec generic b/c it was affordable. And, I get it by prescription rather than buying it OTC which is even more affordable. So, first I lowered my dose from 40mg a day to 20mg a day. Now, this month, I am trying to do 20mg every other day but wow, having some trouble. I knew about Bragg's and have been using it on the nights I don't take the prisolec, like last night, at bedtime and once during the night, but haven't been following it up with the honey. Do you find the honey is worth adding with the carbs? I have been using way more than 1 t of the ACV. Just take a swig, I am the only one using the bottle, and follow by swishing water in my mouth to get the acid off my teeth.

Thanks once again for sharing all your knowledge of supplements, you have really been a wealth of information
Buffy, I am sugar-phobic...but I was miserable and had eliminated every food/drink up and down for three weeks. Then the one that stuck as started it off, my coffee! Yeek! But I was used to one up at 5am, then a larger one 7am ish. Now, I was enjoying the HWC so much, I added two more and that set it off. I will tell you that to cure, and I mean cure...you can get rid of GERD in most cases in 3 days. Cutting aicd foods, going soft foods, eggs, broths, no high spice, if coffee needed during that time, drink water before and after cups....so the acid doesn't sit on your throat down to tummy. YES, the honey, one teaspoon was the fast kicker. You can put the 1-2 teaspoons of nasty-nasty ACV in warm water 1/4 cup, add the honey to make it easier. Any time you have kicking up symptoms, drink that. Voila! Relief. The three days of soft gives time to heal the acid damage. If you would like the whole ticker of info, let me know and I can post a brief. I took Nexium the first year it was out, but my doc told me the long term dangers and said 6 weeks only. It works, but I also reduced my coffee at that time. PPI drugs are going to get hit soon with major warnings as to long term damage to our health. The acid balance in our tummys is needed for processing everything well. But the splashback in the throat is damaging. Now, if you are someplace where you don't have honey and ACV, take an apple with you and eat it slowly....you should have results. Honey has incredible good bacteria for ADULTS....teenagers too, never babies!
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:13 AM   #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
We have had a few people drop out of the NK WOE because of heart palpitations. I have always wondered if their sodium/potassium ratios or calcium levels were throw out of balance and that is what caused the palpitations.

Bone broth may be very important for some people starting this WOE until the body can up-regulate the proper pathways for mineral balance in the body.

Eclampsia is another condition were the body needs help to keep calcium levels normal until it can up-regulate those pathways for calcium utilization.
that's interesting. are we supposed to be taking calcium? I thought I read that calcium messes with the magnesium so I am not taking it.
also can you fill me in on the bone broth?

also when you guys talk about taking salt are you talking about iodized salt or does it matter?
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:16 AM   #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbird View Post
First, thanks for the warm welcomes!

I think NK is the best way for me to go right now, as I am pretty sure my protein was too high after the first 6 months or so of doing low carb and causing my stalls and/or slow loss.

I spent a lot of time yesterday picking through posts related to NK and HF/MP/LC to try to determine the correct macro ratios, but later, in reading other posts, am now second guessing myself! Can someone take a look and tell me if these make sense for me? (And thank you very much!)

Macro Ratios: 1500 cals; 5.3% carb; 20% protein; 74.7% fat
Ideal 110 w/22% bf
Ideal LBM = 90.03 pounds

Daily calorie calc: 110 / 2.2 = 50 x 30 = 1500 cal/day

Daily protein calc: ideal 110 lbs / 2.2 = 50 x 1.5 = 75 g protein x 4 cal per gram x 75 grams = 300 protein cals
20% protein = 75 g x 4 cal = 300 cal / 1500 = 20%

Daily carb calc: 20 g carbs = x 20 grams = 80 carb cals
5.3% carb = 20g x 4 cal per gram = 80 cal / 1500 = 5.3 %

Fat: 100% - (20% + 5.3% = 25.3) = 74.7% fat or 124 g fat
fat = 9 cal per gram: 74.7% of 1500 cals - 1120

~ birdie
110 is my goal weight as well so I'm looking fw to seeing the "professionals" respond to your post. How did you decide on 22% body fat as a goal?
I don't remember where I got mine from but I made the calculations on lower.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:26 AM   #534
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btw whats the official NK stance on canola oil?
is it good or evil?

what about margarine?.... is it really horrible? i haven't had it this whole time
but do like it very much. not a fan of butter...
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:32 AM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
btw whats the official NK stance on canola oil?
is it good or evil?

what about margarine?.... is it really horrible? i haven't had it this whole time
but do like it very much. not a fan of butter...
I think Phinney and Volek are anti Canola oil, and definitely margarine- as it contains a whole host of ingredients that isn't optimal for our bodies

I also like the taste of margarine, and it is convenient to use b/c I don't cook dairy and meat together- but I stick to olive oil/coconut oil instead.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:55 AM   #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasonnier View Post
I think Phinney and Volek are anti Canola oil, and definitely margarine- as it contains a whole host of ingredients that isn't optimal for our bodies

I also like the taste of margarine, and it is convenient to use b/c I don't cook dairy and meat together- but I stick to olive oil/coconut oil instead.
so the options are only CO and olive oil?
I have the same issue as you with the margarine but I try very hard not to use it. Iwas just hoping maybe something changed butter and eggs are back to being ok.

I wish i could like olive oil but I don't. I do mix it with canola for salad. But for cooking, since olive oil can't be heated its a bit of a dilema bc I can only stomach CO as a fat bomb. tried frying in it and it was a no go... at least for now.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:09 AM   #537
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Answer and another question. . .

Quote:
110 is my goal weight as well so I'm looking fw to seeing the "professionals" respond to your post. How did you decide on 22% body fat as a goal?
I don't remember where I got mine from but I made the calculations on lower.
I decided on that body fat percentage by looking at healthy levels for women, did not pick the lowest end, but somewhere in the middle. . . no idea whether or not it is reasonable for me, but heck, can strive to meet something in a happy healthy range!

Ok, fat bombs--most of the recipes I see are too candy-like for me--my biggest problem is candy, not picky, any candy at all. What do you think the criteria is for a fat bomb? A certain ratio? I was thinking of making something with avocado, butter, coconut oil and spices to use to melt on meats or vegetables.

~ birdie
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:18 AM   #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbird View Post
I decided on that body fat percentage by looking at healthy levels for women, did not pick the lowest end, but somewhere in the middle. . . no idea whether or not it is reasonable for me, but heck, can strive to meet something in a happy healthy range!

Ok, fat bombs--most of the recipes I see are too candy-like for me--my biggest problem is candy, not picky, any candy at all. What do you think the criteria is for a fat bomb? A certain ratio? I was thinking of making something with avocado, butter, coconut oil and spices to use to melt on meats or vegetables.

~ birdie
k i'm new herr too but I think that sounds like an awesome idea kind of like those herb butters. I think I'm going to try it too with some parsley and garlic and stuff. The bonus is that is another place to add some salt.

As I said- I am new - so I may be wrong but I think the point of the fat bombs is just an easy way to get more fat with little carbs. Your idea seems to fit the critera.

BTW not sure what you mean by your biggest problem being candy... if you are concerned about the FBs giving you cravings.. at least for me that was not an issue. i thought it might since they LOOK like the real thing but actually, it makes me feel like I'm having a treat without the side effect of going off the deep end which accompanies a typical carby "treat" in fact it keeps me satisfied for a long time. Strange!
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:33 AM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61 View Post
Kristn, when did you first notice the thyroid issues? And I do not know how you stay so healthy in the PNW without our wonderful sun....which can be rough in the summer, but I would be lost without it!
I've been complaining about symptoms since my 20s, but only got diagnosed when things got really bad in 2011.

DH and I have a hard time with the lack of sun and our plan is to move to Hawaii once my youngest son graduates from HS and is situated in his next step (college, trade school, job...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sasonnier View Post

I just received my meter over the weekend- now I need to order the ketone strips! Does anyone know where I can get the ketone strips the cheapest for the nova max meter? 0.7 is my first ketone reading!!! It's hard to get a solid drop of blood for the meter. I have the lancet on 3, should it be higher? Now, does that mean I am keto- adapted? or just that my ketones are where they need to be to achieve keto-adaptation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffy45 View Post
Good question on keto-adapted, I have wondered the same thing and am not good at reading and digging out the scientific info in the books. When do we "know" we have become keto-adapted. Oh wise ones, please answer!! I have been in the zone of .5 to 2 for at least 2 months now and slowly losing weight and inches but not sure what all it means. 0.7 is a great first reading! I have found the American Diabetic Association is the best on price for the strips, be careful when ordering, it is so easy to get the ketone and the glucose strips mixed up. Kristn recently said they had 10% off, but not sure if that is still good or not, I had just ordered some when I saw that.
I'm not sure how you know if you are 100% keto adapted. I assume after a few weeks of testing in the range that you are. Also if you're exercising and you no longer "bonk" then you're probably running on fat (ketones).

American Diabetes Wholesale has the best price I've found on the strips. Sadly that 10% off offer expired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
In the book 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living' Phinney and Volek specifically say that salt intake is very important and give actual parameters to the amount that should be taken. That is why the recommendation of 2 cups of chicken broth is made all over the place - for the salt and other benefits but for the salt. To counteract the dietetic effects and people's salt phobia.
Thanks for posting that article on salt! Here's what Phinney and Volek have to say about salt in the Performance book:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance
The loss of water and salt can reduce plasma volume and make you feel sluggish and compromise your ability to perform outdoors in the heat or in the weight room. As a result, some people get headaches and feel faint. This state of salt depletion causes a compensatory loss of potassium, which has a negative impact on muscle mass since potassium is a necessary co-factor in building and maintaining skeletal muscle. The easy solution is to routinely take 1-2 grams of sodium per day in the form of 2 bouillon cubes (or home-made broth). Some bouillon cubes contain less than 1 gram sodium so be sure to check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbird View Post
First, thanks for the warm welcomes!

I think NK is the best way for me to go right now, as I am pretty sure my protein was too high after the first 6 months or so of doing low carb and causing my stalls and/or slow loss.

I spent a lot of time yesterday picking through posts related to NK and HF/MP/LC to try to determine the correct macro ratios, but later, in reading other posts, am now second guessing myself! Can someone take a look and tell me if these make sense for me? (And thank you very much!)

Macro Ratios: 1500 cals; 5.3% carb; 20% protein; 74.7% fat
Ideal 110 w/22% bf
Ideal LBM = 90.03 pounds

Daily calorie calc: 110 / 2.2 = 50 x 30 = 1500 cal/day

Daily protein calc: ideal 110 lbs / 2.2 = 50 x 1.5 = 75 g protein x 4 cal per gram x 75 grams = 300 protein cals
20% protein = 75 g x 4 cal = 300 cal / 1500 = 20%

Daily carb calc: 20 g carbs = x 20 grams = 80 carb cals
5.3% carb = 20g x 4 cal per gram = 80 cal / 1500 = 5.3 %

Fat: 100% - (20% + 5.3% = 25.3) = 74.7% fat or 124 g fat
fat = 9 cal per gram: 74.7% of 1500 cals - 1120

~ birdie
I am no expert, just learning from Phinney and Volek's Performance book and other things that I've read from people who are succeeding with NK on the internet.

Here are some relevant quotes from from The Art and Science of LC Performance on protein and fat:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance
  • Too little or too much protein can be problematic in the keto-adapted state.
  • Aim for a protein intake between .6 to 1.0 grams per pound of lean body mass.
Even if your goal is gaining muscle, there is a limit to how much new muscle protein can be added each day, and under most circumstances, this amount is relatively small. Over-consuming protein beyond the level that allows maximum anabolism in skeletal muscle thus puts a burden on the body to get rid of the extra nitrogen. Since protein is not a particularly efficient fuel source and for the reasons mentioned above, it therefore makes little sense to consume it in excess.

For all these reasons, we recommend aiming for an intake in the range of .6 to 1.0 grams per pound of lean body mass.

Note also that our recommended ranges are pretty wide, allowing you a fair degree of flexibility in choosing your level of protein intake.
  • To maintain nutritional ketosis as a proportion of total calories, your fat intake will need to be high (~65 to 80%).
  • Since your amounts of carbohydrate and protein are locked into a relatively narrow range, the amount of fat you eat will vary depending on whether you want to lose or maintain weight.
  • The fat you eat provides important fuel and therefore should emphasize the fuel sources the body prefers to burn, namely monounsaturated and saturated fats.
  • Limit foods with a high proportion of the vegetable (omega-6) polyunsaturates.
  • Balance your intake of omega-6 and omega-3 polyunsaturated fat.
So using the recommendations in the Performance book your protein calculation would be:

90.3 (ideal LBM) X .6 = 54
90.3 X1 = 90.3

So your protein range according to the Performance book is 54-90. If you feel good and can get into ketosis at a protein level of 75 grams then your numbers look good!

Some people have found that they need to go to the lower end of the protein range (some people go even lower) to get into and sustain ketosis. It really is individual and you may need to do some experimenting down the road. Phinney and Volek like to give ranges in the book and emphasize individualized nutrition. These are all starting points and then we each find what works for us through experimentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
also when you guys talk about taking salt are you talking about iodized salt or does it matter?
I use sea salt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
110 is my goal weight as well so I'm looking fw to seeing the "professionals" respond to your post. How did you decide on 22% body fat as a goal?
I don't remember where I got mine from but I made the calculations on lower.
There are charts out on the 'net with BF ranges. I think between 20 and 30% for women depending on age, activity level, and body type is probably reasonable. Going below 20% for most women requires a huge commitment to weight training and a very strict diet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
btw whats the official NK stance on canola oil?
is it good or evil?

what about margarine?.... is it really horrible? i haven't had it this whole time
but do like it very much. not a fan of butter...
See above quotes from the Performance book re: types of fat. And margarine is almost always evil because of it's trans-fat content.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:43 AM   #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablis View Post
so the options are only CO and olive oil?
I have the same issue as you with the margarine but I try very hard not to use it. Iwas just hoping maybe something changed butter and eggs are back to being ok.

I wish i could like olive oil but I don't. I do mix it with canola for salad. But for cooking, since olive oil can't be heated its a bit of a dilema bc I can only stomach CO as a fat bomb. tried frying in it and it was a no go... at least for now.
You could try a mild/light olive oil- the taste is much lighter. You can also try safflower oil- I believe Phinney suggests using it in his book. Safflower oil a very mild taste and it is a good oil to cook with.

It's possible that over time, you will be able to better tolerate CO
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