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Old 11-01-2012, 06:06 AM   #1
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High Fat 80/15/5 - November Version

Hello Everyone!

Welcome to November's High Fat 80/15/5 thread!

Our goal is a healthy LC high fat macro and mandatory daily protein regimen resulting in a state of Nutritional Ketosis. The ideal ratios would be 80/15/5 F/P/C but the execution is to eat the required protein amount in grams and filling out the rest of your calories in fat with carbs being as low as possible.

So as long as you are eating your required protein, any day that results in 70+% Fat macro is a win. If you can reach 80%+ so much the better but it is only a goal to strive for not a mandate.

Protein
First determine your protein requirements. There are several ways to do it. In the formulas below the term 'ideal weight' means the right healthy weight for a person of your height and frame size. Usually that is your goal weight and usually even if your goal weight is not your ultimate ideal weight the number will still work and then you can recalculate when you get to that goal. Just understand that making calculations well above the real ideal healthy weight is probably counter-productive.

Here are 3 ways to calculate your daily protein requirements.

The Kwasniewski formula:

((Height in cm)-100) +/-10% = Protein Grams

Technical note: This formula results in about .9 to 1.1 spread in protein grams per ideal kg.

------

Dr. Phinney (the guy that co-Authored 3 books on LC) recommends/demands/emphatically_states 1.5g per ideal kg weight.

Your ideal kg is (ideal_weight/2.2) so this formula is (ideal_weight/2.2)*1.5 = protein grams daily.

------

And the formula used in the Nutritional Ketosis thread:

Multiply your goal weight times your desired body fat percentage. This will give you your desired Lean Body Mass (LBM).

Multiply your LBM by 0.6. This will give you the low end of daily protein consumption. Your LBM in grams is the high end of your consumption.

For example, if I desire to weigh 150 lbs with 18% body fat, my target LBM is 150 * (1-.18) = 123 lbs. This means I should consume between 73.8g of protein (123 * 0.6) and 123g of protein per day.

Technical note: This gives you a range of 1.1 to 1.8g per ideal kg weight.
Protein Part II
As you can see from the three different methods there is a wide range of guesstimated protein requirements for an individual. The USRDA, for contrast, recommends about 40g of protein a day! Unless your ideal weight is very low or you are very short 40g of protein is not enough protein. Take care to get enough protein in every day to protect your lean body mass (everything that is not fat) while losing or maintaining weight.

A frequent question is how to get protein right and get fat high. Probably the easiest approach is to eat fatty protein. And don't restrict your calories too much.
Calories
You can't lose weight if you are consuming far more calories than expending. That is true although it is usually used as a pejorative by the anti-LC crowd as some sort of a gotcha.

There are a lot of BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) calorie calculators on the web. These calculators can give you a guesstimate on a daily calorie goal but they are very much just a guess.

Dr. Phinney gives a range of 30-35kCal per ideal kg weight. He states that 35kCal is *the* norm and 30kCal is for a very obese person that cannot be active because of weight/health problems so very sedentary.

Phinney's formula for daily calories: ((ideal_weight/2.2)*30) or ((ideal_weight/2.2)*35).

So, if your goal weight is 150 then (150/2.2)*35 = 2386

Once you know your protein grams and have an idea of your daily calorie goal you can work on getting there with a combination of protein and fat.

On calories, consider this post and this post if you think that you have to have very low calories to lose weight.
Macros
Okay, now you know your protein and you know what Phinney has to say about calories so how do you get your macros?

Phinney states that NK is reached with 65-85% Fat / ideal protein consumption / under 50g Total Carbs a day.

Going with Phinney's daily caloric floor of 35*kg and using our 150 pound example:

2386 - daily calorie goal.
102g protein daily goal (using Phinney's 1.5g). Protein is 4 calories per gram so...

(102*4)=calories/2386=macro percentage of 17%

Keeping carbs, which are also 4 calories per gram, under 50g total works like this...
(45carbs*4)/2386 = macro percentage of about 7.5%

Now we know how much protein and carbs we are eating as a macro percentage, as absolute grams and as calories we can figure out where our fat will fall too.

17+7.5 = 24.5% which means about 75% of our calories need to come from healthy mono and sat fats.

But that is using the very high 45g of total carbs. If you keep your protein constant and reduce your carbs your fat ratio will go up. If you are just starting then strive for as low of carbs as you can reasonably do. I've been doing NK for weeks at this point and I still keep my total carbs consistently under 30g total a day.

*And* note that you can tweak your daily calories a little by reducing fat as a ratio. In our example, you could still stay in the NK range on fat as a percentage even if you dropped your actual grams by 20g to reduce calories by 200.

*But* remember that the calorie intake we are describing in this example is for your *goal* weight. That means that until you reach goal you are in fact eating a calorie deficit at your current weight. Think about that for a minute.

It can be confusing at first, second and third glance. Don't be put off by that. I'll be happy to help you figure it out if you post to the thread or PM me. I'm giving a whole lot of information for the folks that want to give it a shot without having to post unless they want to post. Hi there lurkers.
Fat
A quick word about Fat because it is important. Not all Fat is created equal. Soy oil is not a good fat - it is a polyunsaturated oil. Use mono-unsaturated and saturated oils. Coconut oil, real butter, olive oil, animal fats, etc. If you aren't sure about the oil google it. Don't sabotage yourself by assuming what the Standard American Diet considers a 'healthy fat' is actually a healthy fat for LC.
Food Logging
There are several really good food loggers. Direct linking is not possible per the TOS of LCF so just google around. Try at least 3, using them at the same time, so you can get a feel for which one suits you best. Most of them have smart phone companion apps if that is important to you.

You really have to log your food if you are going to be successful at the challenge of 80/15/5. That doesn't make it a ball and chain that you are forever saddled with, but your short term goal is virtually undoable without accurately logging what you eat.
Daily/Weekly Weigh-Ins
Do you weigh in daily or weekly? Totally up to you! I weigh in daily because I like the constant feedback. *BUT*, if you choose to do daily weigh-ins you have to accept that daily weights are a snapshot in time only. They are interesting data points but that is all and they are meaningless without the context of time. In other words, weigh in daily if you want but pay attention to the trend not the individual snapshot of weight.

Consider the fact that per Phinney your body maintains about a 4 pound water weight window. Zero to 4 pounds of liquids sloshing around inside you. See this post for a pretty good explanation about this window and how it affects weigh-ins daily, weekly, even monthly.
Links of Interest
October's 80/15/5 thread.

A little bit different approach to NK with Kristn for November is here.

The original Nutritional Ketosis thread - very, very long but lots of good posts all throughout it and it was where I discovered the protein requirements element of the big picture. Kudos and a warm, warm thanks to Kristn for starting that thread! The last post in that thread chains to the next thread and so on as new threads are created.

An NK menu thread spawned by the other Kristn NK threads.
Supplements
If you aren't supplementing start now. It is important. Here are a few tips on it to get you started.

Most Americans, probably most people worldwide, are magnesium deficient. Magnesium is a wonder mineral that has far ranging benefits. For LC'rs, on top of all of the other wonderful things it does, it also helps with regularity. It is a must. Go easy! Here me now and avoid an unpleasant reaction. Don't go full dose all at once. Ramp up to whatever dose you set for yourself. Start at 1/4 to 1/2 the RDA and slowly go up over a week or two's time. If you react to your dose don't panic. It will pass. Lower the dose and take a little more time. I currently take 2xRDA.

Google 'LLVLC-ep-602-morley-robbins', it should be the first hit, for an excellent free podcast about this very important mineral.

Potassium. All LC'rs should probably be supplementing with potassium. It can solve the problem of leg/feet/hand cramps. Dr. Eades of Protein Power advises 4 of the 99mg pills while on induction and then 2 of the 99mg pills, I believe, afterwards. If you are experiencing cramps don't overlook water intake. Dehydration causes awful cramps too. The best thing is pure water. The next best thing is liquid that doesn't have a lot of chemicals (including caffeine) in it. Probably you should learn to love pure water.

Multi-vitamin. I doubt there are many LC'rs not taking a multivitamin but if you happen to be one, go to the store now and buy some. Really.

The rest. There are others that you probably should be taking daily too. Google 'atlcx-26-dr-jonny-bowden', it should be the first hit, for a free podcast that is excellent about supplements in general for LC. Jimmy Moore asks the fantastic question 'what are your trapped on a desert island choices'.
Notes
Join in the conversation any time. Feel free to ask any questions you have. We are all happy to help you. Lurkers are welcome too.

Last edited by reddarin; 11-01-2012 at 06:35 AM..
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:15 AM   #2
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Weigh-in 11012012

Weigh-in this morning ... ... ... 189.9!

So a big drop from yesterday despite all that protein in the form of delicious ribeye steak heh. And I was snacking on them dang sunflower seeds in the shell watching a movie on-line late-ish in the evening.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:36 AM   #3
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Subscribing!

I am back to LC and LCF after a long hiatus. I plan on doing high fat, at least to start. Just had a delicious piece of coconut bark for breakfast, along with 2 cups of coffee with heavy cream. Yeah, dieting is hard!
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:37 AM   #4
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I lost 3 more lbs in Oct. I love this WOE .My wife lost 5 lbs in Oct .We are on fire!
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:40 AM   #5
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Hi there lurkers.


Wow! Lots of good information - I'm going to tackle the NK threads you linked for more info!
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:44 AM   #6
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Good Morning! Just checking in on the new thread.

Only lost 5 pounds for October, but that also included a free-for-all on vacation.
I'm hoping to lose 11.5 for the month of November. That would put me solidly in the mid 190's. I'll get it done :-)

Today:

B - coffee w/CO, egg salad
L - sausage/kale soup
D - pork steak & brussel sprouts OR bacon & eggs
S - pc of dark choc

coffee and water to drink


Edited to add: FYI Major Red. You have inspired me to quit smoking. I've been a pack-a-day smoker for over 20 years. I had my last smoke on Tues. night. One day down and into my second. (and it seems like a million more to go) UGH

Last edited by livinlarge; 11-01-2012 at 06:48 AM..
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:10 AM   #7
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Good Morning! Just checking in on the new thread.

Only lost 5 pounds for October, but that also included a free-for-all on vacation.
I'm hoping to lose 11.5 for the month of November. That would put me solidly in the mid 190's. I'll get it done :-)

Today:

B - coffee w/CO, egg salad
L - sausage/kale soup
D - pork steak & brussel sprouts OR bacon & eggs
S - pc of dark choc

coffee and water to drink


Edited to add: FYI Major Red. You have inspired me to quit smoking. I've been a pack-a-day smoker for over 20 years. I had my last smoke on Tues. night. One day down and into my second. (and it seems like a million more to go) UGH
Ugh is right lol!! Good luck! I am still having urges although they are finally getting less intense and less frequent. I was up to 1.5 to 2 packs a day when I quit at 7pm on the 18th of October. 2 weeks ago!

Some tips for you.

Smokers touch their lips and face a lot. A whole lot. Keep something in your mouth to avoid some of the physical urges. I use straws that i cut into 4ths. They will tear up your tongue a little but they keep the mouth feel in check.

Recognize triggers. Like getting in the car, putting your fork down, whatever. Recognize them and do something to distract yourself to help get past the trigger.

I just got them but I think they are helping - sunflower seeds in the shell. Keeps your mouth busy and the extra sodium is cool too. It takes a lot to add up to any actual quantity of seeds. Like if I measure out 20g of seeds in the shell and then measure the shells I end up with a net of maybe 4g of actual seeds.

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Old 11-01-2012, 07:16 AM   #8
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Thanks Red. I know I'll have to quit drinking for awhile. Smokes and cocktails go hand in hand for me, so actually this will be two-fold. The other time that really bothers me is driving to and from the office. I always light up when I get in the truck. I don't smoke in my house so the colder weather here will actually help curb the urge to outside when I'm at home. Thanks again for the suggestions! I'll let you know how I do! :-)
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:20 AM   #9
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I lost 3 more lbs in Oct. I love this WOE .My wife lost 5 lbs in Oct .We are on fire!
Yay and Congrats to both of you!!
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:22 AM   #10
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Morning !!! Great job Red on our new nov.thread,
I lost 7 lbs in oct.that is now....July 2005 nov...167.8. Not bad.
I would like to lose 10 lbs this month.but will take 7.
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:26 AM   #11
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Wow! Lots of good information - I'm going to tackle the NK threads you linked for more info!
Hi there and welcome to the thread
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:27 AM   #12
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Subscribing!

I am back to LC and LCF after a long hiatus. I plan on doing high fat, at least to start. Just had a delicious piece of coconut bark for breakfast, along with 2 cups of coffee with heavy cream. Yeah, dieting is hard!
Repost your question about high fat foods on this thread
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:27 AM   #13
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Morning !!! Great job Red on our new nov.thread,
I lost 7 lbs in oct.that is now....July 2005 nov...167.8. Not bad.
I would like to lose 10 lbs this month.but will take 7.
Great job PC! Congrats!
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:30 AM   #14
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Weigh-in this morning ... ... ... 189.9!

So a big drop from yesterday despite all that protein in the form of delicious ribeye steak heh. And I was snacking on them dang sunflower seeds in the shell watching a movie on-line late-ish in the evening.
Great job!
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:32 AM   #15
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I lost 7 lbs in oct. Not bad.
Not bad? I'd say that's TERRIFIC!
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:59 AM   #16
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Thanks
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:02 AM   #17
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Morning to our Red's Thread gang! Wow, Red, hats off to a great intro to our monthly thread, love it.
Huge to all the newcomers who found their way to us, please hang around, join in our discussions and add your knowledge as well. This is a great group, we have a lot of fun and WE ARE LOSERS!!! Proud of it!

Ok, who said I "only" lost 7 lbs last month, Buffy 's that person!!! I was THRILLED to lose 3.8 . But, I know each of us has different issues and some more or less to lose, some lose quicker and some slower, our goal here is to help each person stay on course and gain better health and if desired , leaner fitter bodies. We are doing a good job.

Red, glad to see you are back in the 80's and have done such a GREAT job in the non-smoking dept. It has been years, but when I quit, I was up to 2 packs a day as well, it was HARD, but so worth it.

Harms way, you can do it, you and Red both pointed out some of the trigger times when you reach for a cigarette, pay close attention. Mine was also when the phone rang, always lit up when I took a call. Now I feel so bad when my grown kids tell me how much they HATED the smell of our house, car, us, with 2 smoking parents. Yuck! You do not want to be that Yucky person! You want to smell like a pretty woman, and Red smell like a handsome man!
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:04 AM   #18
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I lost 3 more lbs in Oct. I love this WOE .My wife lost 5 lbs in Oct .We are on fire!
Fabulous
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:09 AM   #19
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Whoever asked about ideas for high fat food, or foods we eat, just hang out on LCF's, all the different threads, before you know it, you will have a file folder brimming over with ideas. I have so many things I have printed out and don't have the time/calories/carbs/appetite to try them all!!! Start out with just your basic meats, don't pick lean, eggs, full fat everything. Use butter and Coconut oil freely. Add in just a little LC veggies, like salad or broccoli, and get your ratios figured out on how much protein to eat in a day, that is the most important number, then determine how many carbs you are going to include, lots of us strive for 20 or less a day, and then fill up with fat. Keep it simple at first, learn and read along the way. I think you said you are back to LC so you know the drill.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:31 AM   #20
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Good Mornig everyone weighed this morning at 227.5 that's down - 6.5 lbs. since starting o Oct. 28

Gord
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:34 AM   #21
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Not bad? I'd say that's TERRIFIC!
That's awesome
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:37 AM   #22
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glad to get back on this thread. I didn't lose anything in October but that was because I'm having objective vertigo/sinus issues along with high cortisol/low aldosterone tremors and other people are making the food in my house for now. I'm having a CT scan tomorrow, hope there are no brain lesions or anything that requires surgery. I was finally able to make my own food today.

so far I have eaten

before breakfast: warm water/ACV/1tbsp honey- this seems to help my head spinning/ear buzzing/furniture tilting sinus congestion.

warm water with 1/2 tsp sea salt + 2 tsp Natural calm magnesium pwdr+1 (99mg) potassium tablet - this is for my tremors- high cortisol-low aldosterone related.

BREKKIE:
2 eggs scrambled
6 or 7 slices of cripsy bacon
decaff coffee with 4tbsp of HWC

LUNCH:

4 OZ tuna with 1/3 mayo- no veggies
2 cups decaff coffee with 1/2 c. HWC total
1 slice cheddar cheese

I'm dragging my butt on finishing the tuna-so full but don't want to waste the fat in it...

congrats to everybody else here that's succeeding so well, I feel like I'm succeeding when you all do so well. I hope that November will be my month to lose...my mini goal is to get to onederland by the time I go for my physical on Nov 26. So, 14 pounds to go--will be doing the daily weight thing even though it stresses me. I can't wait a whole week between weigh ins- that stress is much much higher.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:39 AM   #23
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Good Mornig everyone weighed this morning at 227.5 that's down - 6.5 lbs. since starting o Oct. 28

Gord
WTG, great loss. Congrats!!
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:41 AM   #24
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glad to get back on this thread. I didn't lose anything in October but that was because I'm having objective vertigo/sinus issues along with high cortisol/low aldosterone tremors and other people are making the food in my house for now. I'm having a CT scan tomorrow, hope there are no brain lesions or anything that requires surgery. I was finally able to make my own food today.

so far I have eaten

before breakfast: warm water/ACV/1tbsp honey- this seems to help my head spinning/ear buzzing/furniture tilting sinus congestion.

warm water with 1/2 tsp sea salt + 2 tsp Natural calm magnesium pwdr+1 (99mg) potassium tablet - this is for my tremors- high cortisol-low aldosterone related.

BREKKIE:
2 eggs scrambled
6 or 7 slices of cripsy bacon
decaff coffee with 4tbsp of HWC

LUNCH:

4 OZ tuna with 1/3 mayo- no veggies
2 cups decaff coffee with 1/2 c. HWC total
1 slice cheddar cheese

I'm dragging my butt on finishing the tuna-so full but don't want to waste the fat in it...

congrats to everybody else here that's succeeding so well, I feel like I'm succeeding when you all do so well. I hope that November will be my month to lose...my mini goal is to get to onederland by the time I go for my physical on Nov 26. So, 14 pounds to go--will be doing the daily weight thing even though it stresses me. I can't wait a whole week between weigh ins- that stress is much much higher.
Wow Deb, you have a lot on your plate right now. Are you saying you are trying to lose 14 lbs this month? That is a lot to lose in a month. Take care of your health issues first of all, hoping that the LC helps you with all of it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:50 AM   #25
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thanks Buffy; I'd like to be in the vicinity of 199, just so my doctor won't try to put me on extra meds for BP ect.

I also have PCOS- (high testosterone, lo progesterone along with estrogen dominance) - I'm coming into peri-menopause(43) and my entire body has gone bananas in the last 8 or nine months... if I could get near that magic number, theres less chance meds will be called for...I want to try to talk her into working with a Naturopath that my best friend is going to. Her health issues having been clearing up really well with his advice-he advocates LC and supplements along with any really necessary allopathic medicine. He only works with patients whose family doctor will cooperate with him...I really want to get the saliva testing for my adrenals and my sex hormones. My doctors standard blood tests are really useless.

anyway, enough about me, thanks for the good wishes.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:14 AM   #26
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Happy November

I was wondering why no one was posting on the October thread this morning then I got to the bottom and saw there's a new one duh! Great job Red at starting the new thread!

So I AM SICK. I've been fighting it for it seams like two weeks now. I just figured I had a tummy ache or wasn't eating the right foods (which is still possible) but yesterday I went out to eat with people from work, we went to a really nice place and I ordered the wedge salad, all it had on it was bacon, blue cheese, and roasted garlic ranch.
I instantly got sick and as of now I just want to curl up in a ball. My stomache feels rotten and just hurts. could I be missing something I should be consuming?? I also feel light headed and weak.
Please ANY advise is welcome!!!

I gave in yesterday and had a small amount of greek yogurt in a desperate attempt to feel better. It did work for about an hour but that's all.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:32 AM   #27
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Welcome to all Newbies!
Red, the new Nov intro is great, we bow to you! And your number this morning shows "you are back"!!
Congrats on the losses! "only" 7 lbs??? REALLY? Who said that?? That is fabulous.
HarmsWay, wonderful to hear you are quitting....hang in tight!
Buffy, congrats on nearly 4 lbs down in a month!
Babysteps, how great you got your wife on board with you, and you both are doing great!
Deb, good luck with the CT scan, make certain they put a thyroid protection on you.....! Don't we girls love our hormones?
Oceana, so sorry you have battled this tummy mess. if the yogurt helped, maybe you need a really great probiotic?? Find one with these components: B. Lactis 2 billion units; L. acidophilus 2 billion units; L. salvarius 2 billion units; L.casei 2 billion units; and L.plantarium 2 billion units. You may have your good tummy bacteria at war with the bad.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:00 PM   #28
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Oceana, . I think you really are sick, it's not what you are eating. I kept thinking that the whole time this last UTI was coming on, just did not feel well, stomach hurt, kept thinking it was my diet. As soon as I had a day of antibiotics under my belt, I started feeling better and tummy issues went away.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:05 PM   #29
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Just ate my first meal of the day, I slept really late, hadn't slept well the night before, so I took something last night and wow, didn't wake up until after 10:00 AM. What a luxury to be able to do that now that I am semi-retired. I have NEVER been a morning person and had to force myself into that schedule most of my life.

Anyway, I fried up 6 slices of thick sliced bacon, put 4 aside, then left just a little bacon grease in the pan and heated up 2 oz of leftover chicken in the fat. Oh my, I felt guilty eating it, this can't be right???? This is just toooo fatty and delishious to be legal???? Just wasn't in the mood for eggs today.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:20 PM   #30
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Deb, good luck with the CT scan, make certain they put a thyroid protection on you.....!
SG: thanks for that suggestion, i would never have thought of it!
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