Nutritional Ketosis is beyond my comprehension

[SkeeterN]

Nutritional ketosis is beyond my comprehension. I understand low carb and what is low carb foods but absolutely do not understand how one does a nutritional ketosis diet. I am totally and completely confused.

So much technical stuff is shared that even though I would like to think I am smart obviously I am not as it zips straight up over my head. Why cannot I find where it simply states, eat this much veges, this much meat, avoid chicken as it isn't fat enough, etc. But now all I read is too much protein makes glucose. Short of only consuming oil or butter I cannot grasp this.

I was directed to buy a book written by a Dr. Volek and Dr. Phinney that is suppose to explain it very well. But when reading the reviews this it almost seems directed to athletes. I have physical problems and cannot run. I am living on my savings and cannot in good consciousness just buy something without knowing if this is worth it or not

Can someone please explain this simply without a great bunch of technical stuff?

Makes me sad

[ravenrose]

do you lose weight ok on low carbing, if you keep your carbs under 20 net and calories lowish, honestly regularly and for a long time? if so, you don't need to worry about NK. that is another tool for people for whom Atkins doesn't work well after a time. My view, others will no doubt differ!

but it's one more level of restriction that makes your diet more complicated to stick to. if you don't need to do it, really, don't bother.

good luck.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by SkeeterN

Nutritional ketosis is beyond my comprehension. I understand low carb and what is low carb foods but absolutely do not understand how one does a nutritional ketosis diet. I am totally and completely confused.

So much technical stuff is shared that even though I would like to think I am smart obviously I am not as it zips straight up over my head. Why cannot I find where it simply states, eat this much veges, this much meat, avoid chicken as it isn't fat enough, etc. But now all I read is too much protein makes glucose. Short of only consuming oil or butter I cannot grasp this.

I was directed to buy a book written by a Dr. Volek and Dr. Phinney that is suppose to explain it very well. But when reading the reviews this it almost seems directed to athletes. I have physical problems and cannot run. I am living on my savings and cannot in good consciousness just buy something without knowing if this is worth it or not

Can someone please explain this simply without a great bunch of technical stuff?

Makes me sad

Hi Anita,

Please do get the Phinney/Volek book...the original one on the Science and Art of Low Carb Science, not the Performance one that is more about cyclists that do lots of heavy duty exercise, although there is lots of good info in there too.

Actually, it is recommended that you do NOT exercise with NK eating! I used to go to the gym 5 days a week and now I just walk, or sit at the computer. I don't exercise like I used to. It stresses the body until you are keto adapted.

It's very easy to follow...takes a while to "fine tune" it for you body, but there are some really good threads here to follow...just start reading the threads on NK and 80/15/5 and you will see that many are doing this and stopping stalls. But do get the book as they explain it all well!!! It's not that expensive and many libraries carry it, or can get it for you.

The actual "testing" to see if you are in NK is expensive...the strips are about $2.50 each and you do want to test often at first to see what is good and what throws you out of ketosis. It's a "fine line" as they say when you begin.

But please, read the book as it will help you understand the theories and all the documentation behind why you would want to eat like this for the rest of your life!

[SkeeterN]

So how is this totally different than Atkins?

[reddarin]

Think of Nutritional Ketosis as a framework while Atkins is a specific diet plan.

NK does not, however, support the Atkins carb ladder as that falls outside of the framework.

NK defines itself as moderate protein, high fat, low carb.

Does that clear it up a bit for you?

As a plan to implement NK -- don't eat unlimited protein but make sure you get enough in daily. Limit your total carbs to less than 50g. Eat good fats and avoid high PUFA fats.

NK is used as a verb and a noun. The noun part I described above. The verb part - it means that if you do blood tests with those ketone strips and a blood meter you will be in a range of .5 to 3.0.

[SkeeterN]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Think of Nutritional Ketosis as a framework while Atkins is a specific diet plan.

NK does not, however, support the Atkins carb ladder as that falls outside of the framework.

NK defines itself as moderate protein, high fat, low carb.

Does that clear it up a bit for you?

As a plan to implement NK -- don't eat unlimited protein but make sure you get enough in daily. Limit your total carbs to less than 50g. Eat good fats and avoid high PUFA fats.

NK is used as a verb and a noun. The noun part I described above. The verb part - it means that if you do blood tests with those ketone strips and a blood meter you will be in a range of .5 to 3.0.

I guess the moderate protein stumps me without being able to see a sample of this type of way of eating?

I just cannot wrap my brain around what a person is to eat. So far not one person has been able to give me an example of what one eats vs what one eats that does Atkins

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by SkeeterN

I guess the moderate protein stumps me without being able to see a sample of this type of way of eating?

I just cannot wrap my brain around what a person is to eat. So far not one person has been able to give me an example of what one eats vs what one eats that does Atkins

Are you familiar with JUDDD?

JUDDD is a framework. It doesn't say what or when you can eat. It just says 'limit your calories to x and y'. NK is like that but it just says 'limit daily protein and carbs'.

So, whatever you are eating on Atkins or any true LC woe is fine. Just don't overeat protein. Atkins doesn't really speak to that so it is essentially unlimited protein.

It really depends on how you are doing Atkins. If you are logging your stuff then you already know your total protein grams daily and you can easily adopt a strategy to not overeat protein.

On the other hand, if you are not logging your food then just choose not to eat high protein with every meal. Have 4 slices of bacon instead of 6 with breakfast. Don't use the protein powder in your egg cream shake lunch. Have 8oz of steak instead of 12oz and up your fat for dinner.

Loosey goosey or tightly controlled. Up to you.

[reddarin]

For real world real time examples you can search our NK thread:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ot...r-version.html

... for 'food log' and my username 'reddarin' using the advanced search. I've been posting screen shots of my food logs. Other people in the thread have been posting their daily menus too.

[SkeeterN]

I will give you an example of my meal yesterday

3 slices bacon for breakfast

1 hamburger patty for lunch with a slice of cheese

bowl of home made vege soup made with roast beef, broccoli, cauliflower, green beans, okra. More veges than meat of course.

But as you see my meals are often mostly protein.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by SkeeterN

I will give you an example of my meal yesterday

3 slices bacon for breakfast

1 hamburger patty for lunch with a slice of cheese

bowl of home made vege soup made with roast beef, broccoli, cauliflower, green beans, okra. More veges than meat of course.

But as you see my meals are often mostly protein.

It is not an NK menu. Not enough fat. Dunno if it is too much protein for you though.

[SkeeterN]

Originally Posted by reddarin

It is not an NK menu. Not enough fat. Dunno if it is too much protein for you though.

I am ok right now. Just trying to figure out what NK really is. I read a blog on Jimmy's blog

She said that most people only eat about nine ounces of meat, cheese, or eggs per day. If you eat extra-fatty meat, you can eat a little more. Just 9 ounces of protein and 20 carbs worth of veggies. Most of your diet is fat. In between they eat fat bombs. Mainly just eat twice a day.

I am always trying to help people who are stuck and aren't losing weight. I am glad this works for people.

Thank you for helping me

[reddarin]

For the best description, as Shelley said, go to the source. That is the Performance book by Phinney. I can't imagine that it isn't at the library.

He describes it in the Living book but I think he really takes it apart and puts it all together with great detail in the performance book but I haven't read that one.

[jem51]

Don't let this NK thing confuse you. Atkins IS a ketogenic diet and most will be in ketosis w/o worrying about protein/fat specific ratios.

You can always test your urine.
If there are ketones in your urine they came from your blood. That is the only way ketones can get there.

The NK blood testing gives a more specific number since urine ketones may appear less due to increased water consumption.....

If you are losing, then no need to make yourself crazy; stress is unhealthy.

[SkeeterN]

Originally Posted by jem51

Don't let this NK thing confuse you. Atkins IS a ketogenic diet and most will be in ketosis w/o worrying about protein/fat specific ratios.

You can always test your urine.
If there are ketones in your urine they came from your blood. That is the only way ketones can get there.

The NK blood testing gives a more specific number since urine ketones may appear less due to increased water consumption.....

If you are losing, then no need to make yourself crazy; stress is unhealthy.

thanks. After eight years of total faithfulness I had begun to doubt what I believed.

[Lioness0455]

Originally Posted by SkeeterN

I am ok right now. Just trying to figure out what NK really is. I read a blog on Jimmy's blog

She said that most people only eat about nine ounces of meat, cheese, or eggs per day. If you eat extra-fatty meat, you can eat a little more. Just 9 ounces of protein and 20 carbs worth of veggies. Most of your diet is fat. In between they eat fat bombs. Mainly just eat twice a day.

I am always trying to help people who are stuck and aren't losing weight. I am glad this works for people.

Thank you for helping me

Hi Skeeter,
This would be me. I can't believe how many people have come across my blog post. I stuck my N=1 experience with Nutritional Ketosis on my South Beach/Weight Watcher's blog because I didn't want to confuse all the newbies that read my low-carb blog.

Hardly no one has read my post on what Nutritional Ketosis is, which is at Kickin' Carb Clutter. So I placed a link at the end of the blog post you read pointing people back to the low-carb post that explains what it is.

Nutritional Ketosis is simply a high-fat, low-carb diet that limits protein so you keep a certain amount of ketones in your bloodstream. At lot of individuals, such as Jimmy, have had trouble getting a standard low-carb diet to work for them. When they checked their blood ketone level (rather than their urine ketone level), they discovered that they were not in Ketosis.

Jimmy eats about 80 to 85 grams of protein a day at a single meal (that's about 12 ounces or so). He's doing Intermittant Fasting. Many of those on Nutritional Ketosis have chose to eat once or twice a day because that way they can eat a normal amount of food at each meal.

I'm only 5 feet tall, so MY protein allowance for the day, 60 grams, would be only 9 ounces. That's why I found it unsustainable -- for me. Plus, 85% fat caused me to gain a lot of weight. I've gained even more since I wrote that post because all I have in the house right now is high-fat foods.

Generally, the people this type of diet work for have a high degree of insulin resistance. Their body doesn't handle protein correctly. But Ketosis isn't actually necessary in order to lose weight eating low carb. It's the lowered Insulin levels (not the Ketosis) that enable the body to access your body fat stores as needed.

For many people just restricting carbs is enough to correct their metabolic problems and overweight. That just doesn't work for everyone. As long as your diet is working for you, your diet is fine.

[jem51]

'Generally, the people this type of diet work for....' are men.

Have you ever noticed that the LCHF blogs recommending HF are written by men.

I am the same as you, Vickie, I gain on high fat.
That is not to say that I am eating low fat, but certainly less than that.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by jem51

'Generally, the people this type of diet work for....' are men.

Have you ever noticed that the LCHF blogs recommending HF are written by men.

I am the same as you, Vickie, I gain on high fat.
That is not to say that I am eating low fat, but certainly less than that.

Actually, most of the people who post to the nutritional ketosis threads on this board are women, and the LCHF approach seems to be working for many of them.

However, as we all know, no approach works for everyone, and I appreciate that some women gain following that approach.

I started losing again on LCHF after stalling on Atkins with relatively high protein, but now I seem to be stalled on the LCHF approach, also. I'm always pretty strict about tracking and limiting calories (under 1200/day), so I'm pretty sure that I'll maintain rather than gain on LCHF--but that's just me. Limiting protein does help limit my appetite, probably because I'm one of the unlikely people for whom any excess protein prompts an insulin surge. If following Atkins without regard to the amount of protein worked for me, I'd certainly be following that approach rather than LCHF.

[jem51]

Just maintaining on 1200 cals daily does not sound like an easy way to live ones life.....
I would have to see progress for sure.

I also think that as one gets closer to goal, extra fat may halt losses.

The best way for me to keep from continuing to lose is to increase fat.

[mom2zeke]

Just chiming in here to say that NK worked for me to get to goal after being stalled on regular LC for 9.5 years.

For me the key was reducing my protein (my carbs were already low) and not thinking that I had to get my fat % to 85% (or some magic "fat-burning" percentage). In the books they recommend 65-85% of calories from fat depending on your goals. For losing weight they recommend lowering fat from your diet until you are losing knowing that the rest of your fat% will be made up from body fat.

I think that Jimmy Moore emphasized % too much when he started posting about this rather than absolute values for protein and carbs. Dr. Phinney was pretty clear that if you eat too many fat calories you will gain weight, even in NK.