High Fat 80/15/5 - October Version

[reddarin]

Someone asked about the difference between 80/15/5 and NK but I didn't make a note of the post so now I am not sure where that was asked.

Anyway --- the answer is that we are not doing 80/15/5 the way it was thought of even just a few months ago because the 80/15/5 of 'old' had nothing to say about protein other than macro percentage.

But as Kristn pointed out in the first NK thread in September, macro percentages do not reveal very much useful information and easily (slash inadvertently) hide problems.

For example, you can get to a nominal 85/10/5 macro but what exactly does that tell you that is truly useful? Nothing. You don't know how much absolute protein grams you have eaten nor how much absolute carb grams and although the %s look stellar you may be eating in a very unhealthy non-NK way. That is, macro percentages make badly formulated LC menus look good.

[reddarin]

Just on the by and by ya'll, when we do the November 80/15/5 thread I am tweaking the intro post to include a calorie recommendation.

Phinney speaks plainly about it in one of the Jimmy Moore podcast - 30kCal to 35kCal per ideal kg for an adult. And the 30kCal/(ideal)kg is for a complete sloth that is very sedentary (that'd be me lol).

=)

[SouthernGirl61]

Welcome back Red! You can do this. Remember my issues with steriods? 9 lbs up for nearly a week, then it just blew off over a few days. Yours will go down too, and it's good you aren't worried about it for the most part. NK gives control. Nicotine is tough to detox. Your half-life in body should be reduced now, so you are on your way!

Hello to everyone! I am off on another long weekend trip, will check in if have connection, otherwise back late Monday. Have a great weekend! It's to get cooler here, excellent!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61

Welcome back Red! You can do this. Remember my issues with steriods? 9 lbs up for nearly a week, then it just blew off over a few days. Yours will go down too, and it's good you aren't worried about it for the most part. NK gives control. Nicotine is tough to detox. Your half-life in body should be reduced now, so you are on your way!

Hello to everyone! I am off on another long weekend trip, will check in if have connection, otherwise back late Monday. Have a great weekend! It's to get cooler here, excellent!

That is excellent about the 9lbs SG!!

I never did try the charcoal. I have some Kingsford so I gnawed on a briquet but I can't really recommend it as a homeopathic version as it was pretty messy.

Business or pleasure trip? Enjoy yourself either way

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by reddarin

That is excellent about the 9lbs SG!!

I never did try the charcoal. I have some Kingsford so I gnawed on a briquet but I can't really recommend it as a homeopathic version as it was pretty messy.

Business or pleasure trip? Enjoy yourself either way

Pleasure weekend. Reunion time for DH, but it's a great bunch, smaller school. I have "no dog in this fight" so I enjoy myself each time! Otherwise, I hate reunions, if I didn't like you back-then, why do I want to see you now!?

Glad to see your humor didn't detox!

[portcop01]

Welcome back Red I missed you lots did not understand what you said about the 80/15/5????? I'm I doing things right?

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by portcop01

Welcome back Red I missed you lots did not understand what you said about the 80/15/5????? I'm I doing things right?

Yes, you are fine. It was in response to a question someone had posted earlier in the thread when I was absent for a few days.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61

Pleasure weekend. Reunion time for DH, but it's a great bunch, smaller school. I have "no dog in this fight" so I enjoy myself each time! Otherwise, I hate reunions, if I didn't like you back-then, why do I want to see you now!?

Glad to see your humor didn't detox!

Yeah, I am not big on reunions either for various reasons lol

[portcop01]

I'm down 168.8 yehaw.....

[theLossgirl]

PC: Congrats on your new weight! You seem to have really found your stride now!

Red: So glad to have you back. We missed you!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by portcop01

I'm down 168.8 yehaw.....

Yay!! Congrats!!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by theLossgirl

Red: So glad to have you back. We missed you!

Thank you

Still battling the cravings which frankly surprises me a lot. I think the gradual taper off method is much better for the craving aspect of it. On the other hand, actually tapering off is the huge failure point. I did it once but that seems to have been a moment in time sort of thing.

[jillybean720]

GOOD NEWS: my husband ate the last piece of the apple pie last night

Here's how my yesterday looked:

• protein shake
• Wegmans for lunch: Asian chicken and pork (both with no sugary/thick sauce, no batter nor breading), small salad of romaine, cheddar, egg, and balsamic vinaigrette
• rolled up ham and swiss dipped in mayo
• spinach florentine stuffed chicken breast
• vanilla coconut bark
• chili with cheese and sour cream

Had to guesstimate my values for lunch, but I came in somewhere around these totals:
7.39% carbs (44g, 12g of which were fiber)
63.53% fat (168g)
29.08% protein (173g)

I've never experienced the "induction flu." I have no idea why my body seems to handle it well. That said, Mr. Baby has a bit of a cold, and I'm starting to feel it in my throat this morning

Originally Posted by reddarin

Someone asked about the difference between 80/15/5 and NK but I didn't make a note of the post so now I am not sure where that was asked.

Anyway --- the answer is that we are not doing 80/15/5 the way it was thought of even just a few months ago because the 80/15/5 of 'old' had nothing to say about protein other than macro percentage.

But as Kristn pointed out in the first NK thread in September, macro percentages do not reveal very much useful information and easily (slash inadvertently) hide problems.

For example, you can get to a nominal 85/10/5 macro but what exactly does that tell you that is truly useful? Nothing. You don't know how much absolute protein grams you have eaten nor how much absolute carb grams and although the %s look stellar you may be eating in a very unhealthy non-NK way. That is, macro percentages make badly formulated LC menus look good.

Umm, I'm still very confused I wasn't the one who posed the question originally, but I do remember reading it and wondering the same thing. I was under the impression that the macro % were far more important than just the basic numbers of grams of each macro. After all, you could eat 45g of carbs a day and call it a good day, but if that's practically ALL you ate, that's certainly NOT a good day! By focusing on the %s, you know your macros have been proportioned to support ketosis. That's why I've always been frustrated by some who say they just try to stay below X number of grams of carbs per day - just having a carb limit in terms of grams isn't enough of the picture.

[Buffy45]

Morning!
Red, I am so happy to see you posting, we all were quite worried about you.
You are doing the right thing, IMHO, going ahead with a higher carb/calorie level but not really ditching LC and giving into wheat, etc. is going to make it much easier to get back into the losing phase once you get further along with not smoking! So proud of you to ditch that nasty, unhealthy habit. Welcome back!

PC, you are in a groove now Baby!!! congrats!

My UTI is much better but the urgent care doctor only gave me enough antibiotics for 7 days and from my history, I don't think that is long enough to kill all those bad bugs, so, will either call for a refill, or, see my regular MD next week to test my urine. I have a list to see my regular doctor about anyway, but was wanting to get about another month of NK done before I saw him, to see if my BP meds could be adjusted at that time.

Some good news to report. Even though my weight loss is at turtle time, something started happening in just the last couple of weeks that is pretty exciting. I have a tanita scale that measures % of body fat. I know they aren't that accurate but they are consistent. When I started on Sept. 3rd, my BF was 50% on my scales and stayed there, say give or take 1 1/2 % points for over a month. Then, it started going down, little by little. This past 2 weeks, it has gone down to 45.6% this am and it is consistently this low the past few days. So, to me, that means how I am doing my NK is working just like it should, burning BF. And, I assume that the lower my % of BF gets, the more calories I will burn, even at rest,if I understand all that correctly.

DD is now down to 195!!! I am so thrilled for her, she is doing great and loving this WOE.

Took DGS for his allergy shot and we always go to dinner, at the place of his choice, afterwards. He chose Whataburger last night. I had a cheeseburger, no bun, and the lettuce that came with it with some of their yucky ranch dressing. Wow, compared to the yummy home made meals I make now, that was not good eating, but the company more than made up for it

Monday is my 8 week NK anniversary! Soooooo happy I found this WOE when I decided to come back to LC.

[jillybean720]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Some good news to report. Even though my weight loss is at turtle time, something started happening in just the last couple of weeks that is pretty exciting. I have a tanita scale that measures % of body fat. I know they aren't that accurate but they are consistent. When I started on Sept. 3rd, my BF was 50% on my scales and stayed there, say give or take 1 1/2 % points for over a month. Then, it started going down, little by little. This past 2 weeks, it has gone down to 45.6% this am and it is consistently this low the past few days. So, to me, that means how I am doing my NK is working just like it should, burning BF. And, I assume that the lower my % of BF gets, the more calories I will burn, even at rest,if I understand all that correctly.

That is awesome! And what a great reminder that good things can be happening even if the number on the scale is being stubborn.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by jillybean720

Umm, I'm still very confused I wasn't the one who posed the question originally, but I do remember reading it and wondering the same thing. I was under the impression that the macro % were far more important than just the basic numbers of grams of each macro. After all, you could eat 45g of carbs a day and call it a good day, but if that's practically ALL you ate, that's certainly NOT a good day! By focusing on the %s, you know your macros have been proportioned to support ketosis. That's why I've always been frustrated by some who say they just try to stay below X number of grams of carbs per day - just having a carb limit in terms of grams isn't enough of the picture.

It's not the macro % that get you in ketosis. Having low enough carbs and a protein gram amount that is high enough so you don't lose LBM but low enough not to induce gluconeogenesis is what gets you in ketosis. If you have a very high input (calories) then you can have the best % and still have too many carbs and too much protein to be in ketosis. Conversely if your input is too low then you may lose LBM from protein being too low even though your % are great.

Red--glad to see you back posting!

[Buffy45]

Jilly, could you please post your chili recipe? Is it pretty LC?

[Snoangel]

Originally Posted by reddarin

I'm back!

Tonight at 7pm is eight full days. This morning at 7am will be 7.5 days or 180 hours since I quit cold turkey.

I have to say it has been a lot harder than I thought it would be.

My solution to the cravings has been to intentionally eat a lot. That sounds pretty crazy but my experience with NK over the last few weeks makes me think that regaining control of myself is possible and shedding the resulting pounds is possible. Also, I cannot eat wheat so it is a huge restraining factor on just how out of control I could get.

How interesting that something that has been such a curse like wheat for so many decades for me turns out to be a blessing in so many other ways once I found out about it.

Anyway, I'm trying t catch up on the posts.

Gonna post my new start weight real quick though.

Red, It's so good to hear from you!!
You're doing great!!
I wanna say thank you because you inspired me to quit smoking as well. I haven't been a smoker for more than a year so I'm not going thru the discomfort you are, but I am thinking about you, your health, and happiness

[Snoangel]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Jilly, could you please post your chili recipe? Is it pretty LC?

Yes I would like to know as well

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by jillybean720

Umm, I'm still very confused I wasn't the one who posed the question originally, but I do remember reading it and wondering the same thing. I was under the impression that the macro % were far more important than just the basic numbers of grams of each macro. After all, you could eat 45g of carbs a day and call it a good day, but if that's practically ALL you ate, that's certainly NOT a good day! By focusing on the %s, you know your macros have been proportioned to support ketosis. That's why I've always been frustrated by some who say they just try to stay below X number of grams of carbs per day - just having a carb limit in terms of grams isn't enough of the picture.

Think of it this way...

Macro percentages are like a fuel gauge on a vehicle you've never seen before unlike anything you've ever seen. They are data points that tell you some very useful information. Like the needle is on the F mark for full.

*BUT*

What does that really mean? You don't know, for example, how big the fuel tank is. Nor do you know if it is gas or diesel. Nor do you know how far you can travel on a full tank of gas.

Macro percentages are like that - they both inform and mislead. An 'F' needle may make you think everything is peachy but without knowing some base values you really don't know what that F represents.

Enter the protein grams. This has to be the anchor for everything else. Why? Because it is the single thing that protects your lean body mass. Fat and carbs matter, of course, but absolute grams of protein are singular in their importance for a well structured low carb woe. So, you figure out your daily must have protein grams then the other two macros fall into place accordingly and their grams are interesting but not of the same importance and their ratio (percentages) are therefore the important thing about them.

Is that more confusing or does it better illuminate the situation?

To clarify why macro % are misleading - you can have 80/15/5 but be over 50g on carbs and out of NK (because at about that level the kidneys start retaining water as happens with a 'high carb' woe) or even be out of your personal metabolism's tolerance for carbs but anyone seeing that '5' would never guess that you are eating, for example, 40g of carbs. You can eat far too little protein and be unknowingly shedding more LBM than you otherwise would/should. Conversely, you can way overeat protein grams if your calories are high enough which can thwart your loss efforts through protein conversion to sugar.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Red--glad to see you back posting!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by alizgurl

Red, It's so good to hear from you!!
You're doing great!!
I wanna say thank you because you inspired me to quit smoking as well. I haven't been a smoker for more than a year so I'm not going thru the discomfort you are, but I am thinking about you, your health, and happiness

Gosh!! You are making the right decision stopping now. I started almost 30 years ago. Awful habit to get into and a real bear to get out of with zero upside to having it in the first place lol.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

DD is now down to 195!!! I am so thrilled for her, she is doing great and loving this WOE.

!!!! Hooray!!! Congrats to her!

[Clueless]

I have been wanting to join you all but was still a bit confused. Thanks Red for that last post I Think I get it now.

I lost 10 lbs just LC but then it slowed. The thing I have really noticed is while I have not lost lbs or inches in the last 2 or 3 weeks my body is changing. I was on low fat for 20 years (I am 40). Since adding fat my arms and legs are thinner and I am getting smaller. Did any of you experience this?

Glad your back Red!
Hows you BP? Better I hope.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Clueless

I have been wanting to join you all but was still a bit confused. Thanks Red for that last post I Think I get it now.

I lost 10 lbs just LC but then it slowed. The thing I have really noticed is while I have not lost lbs or inches in the last 2 or 3 weeks my body is changing. I was on low fat for 20 years (I am 40). Since adding fat my arms and legs are thinner and I am getting smaller. Did any of you experience this?

Glad your back Red!
Hows you BP? Better I hope.

Yes, I noticed that too. My belly area seems to be the last bastion of body fat for me - typical male fat loss experience I reckon but still very annoying. I even think my butt got smaller and I never thought I had a big butt in the first place.

BP is well below health care professional's shrieking in horror and fainting lol

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Think of it this way...

Macro percentages are like a fuel gauge on a vehicle you've never seen before unlike anything you've ever seen. They are data points that tell you some very useful information. Like the needle is on the F mark for full.

*BUT*

What does that really mean? You don't know, for example, how big the fuel tank is. Nor do you know if it is gas or diesel. Nor do you know how far you can travel on a full tank of gas.

Macro percentages are like that - they both inform and mislead. An 'F' needle may make you think everything is peachy but without knowing some base values you really don't know what that F represents.

Enter the protein grams. This has to be the anchor for everything else. Why? Because it is the single thing that protects your lean body mass. Fat and carbs matter, of course, but absolute grams of protein are singular in their importance for a well structured low carb woe. So, you figure out your daily must have protein grams then the other two macros fall into place accordingly and their grams are interesting but not of the same importance and their ratio (percentages) are therefore the important thing about them.

Is that more confusing or does it better illuminate the situation?

To clarify why macro % are misleading - you can have 80/15/5 but be over 50g on carbs and out of NK (because at about that level the kidneys start retaining water as happens with a 'high carb' woe) or even be out of your personal metabolism's tolerance for carbs but anyone seeing that '5' would never guess that you are eating, for example, 40g of carbs. You can eat far too little protein and be unknowingly shedding more LBM than you otherwise would/should. Conversely, you can way overeat protein grams if your calories are high enough which can thwart your loss efforts through protein conversion to sugar.

Oh! I didn't even touch on calories!

Macros %s also hide problems with calories at both ends of the spectrum - too high and too low.

[jillybean720]

I give up on the macro % vs grams discussion I'm going to just keep going by macros (primarily focusing on the carbs) because I have absolutely no way of knowing exactly how much protein my body needs. I've personally experienced hair loss and decreasing protein levels on my labs even when eating 100+ grams of protein daily from food, which is why I add in the shakes as well. Even with my surgery, I supposedly no longer malabsorb any of my calories/macros, but my experience does not jive with that, and I need to make sure I have extra protein with increased bioavailability.

I'd also be interested to know more about this threshold of 50g of carbs - the kidneys retaining water should not affect glucose nor ketone levels, unless we're really talking about glycogen and not just water. I have read before that 5g of carbs in one sitting is enough to trigger an insulin response, so keeping meals/snacks all below 5g carbs each is also a potential goal (I did it once for about 6 weeks, but I was still in my first year after my surgery, so I can't say how much of my success was attributable to what component).

Also, we need gluconeogenesis, as that is what provides glucose to the parts of our bodies that do need it (hence, no one ever has a blood glucose level of 0 even if not ingesting a single dietary carbohydrate), so I would think the goal shouldn't be to thwart it, but rather to keep it at a reasonable level.

I think I'm just having a hard time integrating some of this knew knowledge in with things I've previously learned through my research on carbs and ketosis and glucose/insulin/diabetes...

I will also admit I'm grumpy and jealous of those who have had weight loss surgery and reached their goal weights and don't have to go through this like me When I post in my weight loss surgery groups, they're all eating high in fat but not really low in carbs (they THINK they're low, but a goal of 100g or less per day, as we know, really isn't very low...). One girl had a nice high-fat recipe for a peanut butter pie, and I asked her to share, and she started by explaining how to make the OREO CRUST! Of course, I can make it crustless, but then it's just peanut butter, cream cheese, and heavy whipping cream. Still sounds good, but I'm wary of the carbs. They all also like to think of hwc as a carb-free food, but it's really not, especially when you're getting into using it by the CUP.

I need to step back and remember that my surgery was not in vain. I lost my diabetes completely and am currently more than 100 pounds below my highest weight. It's just so frustrating to have gone through so much and still be nowhere near "goal" or "normal."

Wow, sorry - you are not my therapists

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Jilly, could you please post your chili recipe? Is it pretty LC?

I didn't actually use a recipe. I just did 3 pounds of ground beef, browned it on the stove, then put it in a crockpot with 2 cans of Rotel, a can of petite diced tomatoes, a can of tomato paste, and seasonings. I obviously skipped the beans due to carbs and personally don't like bell peppers, so didn't bother with those, either. When it had cooked for a few hours, I used a ladle to scoop it into individual containers and counted how many scoops there were, so I did the nutritional info based on the entire recipe, then track it by dividing the entire recipe by how many scoops. For the entire recipe, here are the stats:
408g fat (I used 70/30 beef)
104g carbs
247g protein

which comes out to 8.2% carbs, 72.3% fat, and 19.5% protein regardless of serving size. Then I add cheese and sour cream on top!

So, I call it chili, but I guess it's more like just seasoned beef and tomatoes

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by Clueless

I have been wanting to join you all but was still a bit confused. Thanks Red for that last post I Think I get it now.

I lost 10 lbs just LC but then it slowed. The thing I have really noticed is while I have not lost lbs or inches in the last 2 or 3 weeks my body is changing. I was on low fat for 20 years (I am 40). Since adding fat my arms and legs are thinner and I am getting smaller. Did any of you experience this?

Glad your back Red!
Hows you BP? Better I hope.

So true, interesting to see body changes, even with small weight losses. My upper arms are the old lady fat arms that we all hate, and even my tops are fitting looser in the sleeves

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by reddarin

I even think my butt got smaller and I never thought I had a big butt in the first place.

p

something you have NEVER heard a female say.......

[Buffy45]

Thanks Jilly, that sounds really good.

Wow, I hear the frustration in your post and although I don't have much in the way to offer you, just wanted to let you know I care about what you are going through. Your situation with the WLS is so different than those of us who haven't gone through that. So, you have to determine what macros and levels are right for your body, not go by what works for any of us. Just know that you have done yourself and your family a great deal towards the future of all of you and your health. You have that beautiful Mr. Baby to be heathy for!