High Fat 80/15/5 - October Version

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shelley

OK...you wrote that you are 5'6" tall and your low end protein needs are 59. I am so confused. I am 5' 5-3/4" tall (1/4" less than you) and Red told me that my low end protein needs are 47!!! That is a HUGE difference for 1/4" of height.

Will someone AGAIN tell me what calculations you are using for protein needs.

Shelley, your protein minimum is based on your goal weight. Buffy is using the formula from the first 80/15/5 thread - it is based on Kwasniewski's formula which is calculated on her height. We used that in the other thread for about the first 3/4 of the thread before I explored the topic more and found the other formulas - that is why there is such a big range.

Your range is 47 to 106. Kwasniewski's formula puts your range at 59-72 rounding your height down which is probably what I did with Buffy when I calculated her.

Confusing, no?

[shelley]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Shelley!

Drj!

I haven't forgotten about you guys and the glucose/ketosis phenomenon thing. I posted a question about it (generically) on Dr. Eades' blog.

I'm listening to a Jimmy Moore podcast about protein right now. His guest is Dr. Layman. His field of study is protein and he has some very interesting things to say about it. His position on daily intake is quite a bit higher than what we are doing here and higher than what they are doing in the other NK thread too.

Google 'atlcx-24-layman-protein'.

I haven't finished listening yet but some of the things he's said made me think of you two.

What I think you guys should try is to make your macros x/x/5 for a few days and see how your glucose responds and how your ketosis levels react. Strive to do 30g of protein at each meal for 3 meals a day. That is very high for you, Shelley, I know.

The macro composition is not so important for this experiment other than VLC. I doubt either of you could eat enough calories to get to 80% fat so don't worry about that. The idea is to see how your ketones and glucose reacts to a bit higher protein. You'd still try to eat as much fat as possible but as a ratio it wouldn't be important for this.

What is important is eating the 30g of protein at each meal. So don't load up at breakfast and skip or skimp on the other two meals.

Thanks skinny!!!!! I am downloading the 9-12 podcast now while responding(I have dial up and it's slow slow slow).

I did all 3 calculations for my protein per the link you just posted. Kwasniewski says minimum of 67.

Phinney/Voley says minimu of 70.45

NK thread says minimum of 69.75.

I have been sticking to 47-50, and obviously going "backwards" for the month of October!!!! Hmmmm....

I will be happy to do the 30 grams of protein for each of my meals. My fasting glucose this AM was 102 and ketones .1....down from the .3 on Monday. Way out of ketosis. My biggest change has been dropping my protein from 60 to 47 or so.

Yesterday I got so darned frustrated being out of ketosis for a week that I didn't have the CO after dinner, and I had 1/2 of a tiny little yam with my dinner (microwaved with butter and butterscotch and marshmellow SF syrups). YUM! Anyway, I had 30 net carbs (36.6 total) and that's horribly HIGH in carbs for me...I'm usually 2-5% max. I was 12% carbs yesterday (horribly high for me). At least the fasting glucose wasn't in the 120's!

I'm delighted for everyone that is doing so well, but I'm just not finding it's working for me....yet.....I have to go do my 7 day calculations of the Tanita scale's bodyfat recordings to see what has happened to my bodyfat and lean body mass. If I lost more lean tissue and gained more fat, then I really have to do something different. I'm too "old" to have this happening to my body. And the glucose does scare the heck out of me.

I don't want to go back to nonfat/high protein, but at least I weighed 20# less last year doing that WOE than this way. Sorry, I"m just very frustrated at this point. I'm sure you can tell!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I did all 3 calculations for my protein per the link you just posted. Kwasniewski says minimum of 67.

Phinney/Voley says minimu of 70.45

NK thread says minimum of 69.75.

I have been sticking to 47-50, and obviously going "backwards" for the month of October!!!! Hmmmm....

I know you are frustrated. I am too.

One of the formulas has a range of .8 to 1.8. Using the minimum of .8 results in 47g for you:

(130/2.2)*.8 = 47.27

...and using 1.8 results in:

(130/2.2)*1.8 = 106.36

That is how I arrived at the range Shelley (and everyone else).

But, your situation is different from most everyone else doing the NK. Same with RavenRose (I think) and Drj. Your metabolism is a bit different so it isn't as straight forward as it should be.

Remember we are experimenting trying to get it to work. That was how we started it just 12 days ago with you Shelley.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I have dial up

[Kerry]

Please don't give up, think of all the people you can help on here with a little trial and error

[shelley]

Originally Posted by reddarin

I know you are frustrated. I am too.

One of the formulas has a range of .8 to 1.8. Using the minimum of .8 results in 47g for you:

(130/2.2)*.8 = 47.27

OK...so we are using "goal weight" and not current weight! That makes more sense!

I'm frustrated for sure, but definitely NOT angry with you or anyone else. Not at all. I am *most* appreciative!!!!! Believe me I am.

Last year I lost so much weight and so many inches doing BFL and eating high protein and nonfat...but it was not sustainable for me to keep doing those hard weight lifting days, the HIIT and all that....not at my age and with my "old body" not enjoying the stress I was putting it through. I much prefer walking and starting up with "light weights" just to help with my bones and joints, and not pushing to failure with an hour workout 3 days a week.

I'm off to listen to the podcast you recommended as it's "downloaded" enough to get started.

I haven't had lunch, but will definitely up my protein....I did a crockpot heavily marbled chuck roast yesterday, the 3# of bacon, and have lots of ground pork too!!!! I'm set for "food" sources of fatty proteins.

I'm looking back to my high ketone readings and they were the days after my fat fasts...ketones were 1.1, 1.0 and .8 (protein was 16-18%) and my glucose was in the 90's....so high fat and 60 grams of protein seems to get me there....(carbs were 2% then). So, I know I CAN get into ketosis, but to stay there? That seems to be my "problem"......this is a major scientific experiment!!!

[Kerry]

Shelly, have you thought about fat fasting for a couple of days then slowly adding carbs and protein? Kind of like your own induction experiment. Then you can test after the few day fat fast, see your levels slowly add back till its where you like..

[Kerry]

I'm sorry if I have it all wrong, I am just brain storming....
Its like Atkins 72, you go really strict, then keep adding every few days till you stop losing then you take one step back so you lose again.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Kerry

Shelly, have you thought about fat fasting for a couple of days then slowly adding carbs and protein? Kind of like your own induction experiment. Then you can test after the few day fat fast, see your levels slowly add back till its where you like..

Hi Kerry....I have done the fat fast and tested while doing it and keeping perfect notes 2 times in the last 6 weeks. I do get into ketosis (around .8 to 1.0), but as soon as I come out of the fat fast and add in "regular food" in proper macros, it all changes again quickly. I was doing 81/15/4 and was OUT of ketosis (from 91-93%/5/2 in the fat fast). I don't think that is sustainable for good health to stay in a fat fast!

On the good news part...my cold is getting much better!!!! (I went back to using my netti pot...what a difference!)

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shelley

OK...so we are using "goal weight" and not current weight! That makes more sense!

I'm frustrated for sure, but definitely NOT angry with you or anyone else. Not at all. I am *most* appreciative!!!!! Believe me I am.

Last year I lost so much weight and so many inches doing BFL and eating high protein and nonfat...but it was not sustainable for me to keep doing those hard weight lifting days, the HIIT and all that....not at my age and with my "old body" not enjoying the stress I was putting it through. I much prefer walking and starting up with "light weights" just to help with my bones and joints, and not pushing to failure with an hour workout 3 days a week.

I'm off to listen to the podcast you recommended as it's "downloaded" enough to get started.

I haven't had lunch, but will definitely up my protein....I did a crockpot heavily marbled chuck roast yesterday, the 3# of bacon, and have lots of ground pork too!!!! I'm set for "food" sources of fatty proteins.

I'm looking back to my high ketone readings and they were the days after my fat fasts...ketones were 1.1, 1.0 and .8 (protein was 16-18%) and my glucose was in the 90's....so high fat and 60 grams of protein seems to get me there....(carbs were 2% then). So, I know I CAN get into ketosis, but to stay there? That seems to be my "problem"......this is a major scientific experiment!!!

If it comes to it, we'll strap you to a table, crank you up to the roof in a lightening storm and cross our fingers.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I much prefer walking and starting up with "light weights" just to help with my bones and joints, and not pushing to failure with an hour workout 3 days a week.

Okay when that first podcast is finished downloading I have another one for you Shelley.

Google 'atlcx-25-fred-hahn'.

He does a workout routine called Slow Burn. It is only 2 times a week for 15 minutes each so only 30 minutes a week.

This podcast, unfortunately, is not much on the mechanics of how to actually do a Slow Burn, but the description fits your situation perfectly.

When I get a chance I'll google around in the next day or two for specifics on how it's done and post some google search phrases.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Kerry

I'm sorry if I have it all wrong, I am just brain storming....
Its like Atkins 72, you go really strict, then keep adding every few days till you stop losing then you take one step back so you lose again.

Actually, I did strict Atkins induction under the guidance of a license nutritionist and gained 20# since last spring. I never climbed the ladder other than adding in a whopping 8 raspberries a couple mornings a week. Still gained!

So...I'm a freak of nature! (only it's not funny)

Actually I was told my years of dancing (ballet/jazz) and maintaining my weight between 98-108# for years, and drinking more water than food while exercising like a fool that has caused this. Put my body into starvation mode for many many years. Now it's "payback time". So they say. I am not believing it! But I did drop 20# on nonfat, high protein and high exercise last year rather quickly. It was fun, but I didn't feel "healthy", so went to Atkins '72 induction......very strict for a year and gained the 20# back.

So, I'm just trying to find what works. And my body is riddled with cellulite/fat and I'm not fond of that at all!

[shelley]

Originally Posted by reddarin

If it comes to it, we'll strap you to a table, crank you up to the roof in a lightening storm and cross our fingers.

I like this idea. I love lightening!!!!!

[shelley]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Okay when that first podcast is finished downloading I have another one for you Shelley.

Google 'atlcx-25-fred-hahn'.

He does a workout routine called Slow Burn. It is only 2 times a week for 15 minutes each so only 30 minutes a week.

This podcast, unfortunately, is not much on the mechanics of how to actually do a Slow Burn, but the description fits your situation perfectly.

When I get a chance I'll google around in the next day or two for specifics on how it's done and post some google search phrases.

I have tried the Jillian Michaels 20 minute workout (something like that) and even 2 others that are 5 minute heavy duty slow burn type exercises, but they were created for men!!!!! Strong men!!!!! I have no upper body strength at all (hired a personal trainer years ago ... 2 times a week...goal was to do ONE pushup...he fired me after 2 years and said I would never achieve that goal! So, what does that tell you?

Anyway, I love the gym. Ours is a small town and everyone knows everyone and people are very nice and helpful. I'm the only woman up there with the free weights and they were NOT happy about that at first and bullied me until they finally gave up realizing I was not leaving. But I haven't been there in 2 months. Will return this week!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by shelley

I have tried the Jillian Michaels 20 minute workout (something like that) and even 2 others that are 5 minute heavy duty slow burn type exercises, but they were created for men!!!!! Strong men!!!!! I have no upper body strength at all (hired a personal trainer years ago ... 2 times a week...goal was to do ONE pushup...he fired me after 2 years and said I would never achieve that goal! So, what does that tell you?

Anyway, I love the gym. Ours is a small town and everyone knows everyone and people are very nice and helpful. I'm the only woman up there with the free weights and they were NOT happy about that at first and bullied me until they finally gave up realizing I was not leaving. But I haven't been there in 2 months. Will return this week!

Hmmm. I wonder if what you experienced for Slow Burn is the same as what this guy teaches? Give the podcast a listen and let me know I'm really curious. He even said that there are other people doing Slow Burn a lot different from how he does it.

[jillybean720]

On the topic of measuring ketones, I've never done it. I've read more than once that your body can adapt to ketosis and become efficient at using the ketones for energy, in which case you spill very few, if any, into your urine, but that doesn't mean you're not IN ketosis. I decided it was something I didn't want to start obsessing about, so I have never even purchased a ketostick. If your other health indicators show you're doing the right thing for your body (such as good fasting glucose levels!), then I personally wouldn't add ketone measurement into the mix. I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes when I was 25 - there's enough to worry about with glucose and insulin and all that goes with it without having to measure ketones as well! Of course, the only time I might check is if I had very HIGH glucose levels since high glucose + spilling ketones most likely means ketoacidosis.

Sadly, I've read that cellulite is mostly genetic, and there's not much you can do about it once it's there other than surgery. I have so much excess droopy skin from having lost over 100 pounds that I don't care about my cellulite because I will NEVER be in a bikini anyway, barring winning the lottery and getting some major plastic surgery.

I cooked a big crock pot of chili yesterday - well, pretty much just ground beef, tomatoes, chilies, and seasonings. After my tomato soup debacle, I was cautious with the tomatoes and logged everything and then measured out individual servings, and each serving will only end up being about 6.5 total grams of carbs. I can live with that. The fat is skewed, though, since I used 70/30 beef but then poured off a lot of the fat after cooking because I didn't want my chili to be runny. I'll also add shredded cheddar and sour cream when I heat up my chili

This is the difficulty I have in logging/tracking my food - it's so hard to really get it right and account for variances in home cooking (especially for people like me who don't really measure things, just toss stuff in a pot until it tastes right!). But, as long as I know the carbs are very low, hopefully I'll be okay. I know I get more than enough protein daily (focused the past 3 years on getting at LEAST 120g protein daily due to my surgery), so it's just a matter of tracking as best I can.

[reddarin]

JB, were/are you stalled?

As your insulin sensitivity increases your upper limit of carbs increases. From what I've read, insulin sensitivity is recoverable to some point. Being diabetic that may be very different for you.

If you are willing to put up with the hassle, you can measure exactly by weighing everything before you start, making a note of it, then weighing what you didn't use to get the net amount.

I do that for some of the stuff but I am not cooking for a family so it isn't too big a pain.

[reddarin]

Log and numbers for today.

Calories: 1679

Fat: 137
Pro: 91
Car: 27

72/22/6

Breakfast: CO & coffee.
Lunch: Bacon, eggs, jalapeno.
Snack: HWC float.
Dinner: Broccoli, shrimp, jalapeno.
Salt Vehicle: Tomato
End of Day: T of CO.

I managed to keep the food weight bell curve favoring the earlier part of the day and finished dinner by 2:30. I did have that tomato around 5 to finish off my 5 grams of salt though. Thanks to Shelley for the great idea of measuring it out beforehand I had it set out in a small dish on the counter so I knew exactly how much I had left to eat. Wow. That was a salty tomato lol. I'm very curious to see how the cramping issue goes tonight and in the morning. It was dramatically better last night so I have my fingers crossed.

[theLossgirl]

Originally Posted by reddarin

You are the avatar butterfly Deborah heh

Mr. tLG is a strapping fellow and ya'll look great together

Awwww, thank you!

[theLossgirl]

Originally Posted by reddarin

You are the avatar butterfly Deborah heh

Haha. Yeah, I figured there's probably a certain age when you stop showing your tummy publicly, and I've probably far surpassed it! Decided to stop torturing y'all!

[Kerry]

1687 calories for today
138.8 fat
80.5 protein
33.9g carbs (a bit high)
73/19/8

Breakfast was my cream cheese pumpkin pudding

Lunch was cream cheese with Ro-tel tomatoes and Mexican cheese

Dinner was the seafood soup again
Then snack diet cream soda with hwc

Before I get my blood ketone strips, I got a great deal on the urine strips.. Well they were barely light pink so I think my carbs were way to high!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by theLossgirl

Haha. Yeah, I figured there's probably a certain age when you stop showing your tummy publicly, and I've probably far surpassed it! Decided to stop torturing y'all!

I don't think so Missy. That belly is a poster child for successful LC and exercise

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Kerry

Lunch was cream cheese with Ro-tel tomatoes and Mexican cheese

??? Did you melt it all together?

[shelley]

Oh my....I am laughing over Major Red's salty tomato. It's surprising, isn't it, when you measure out the 2 tsp into something and then realize that you have so much left over at the end of the day. Sure hope you sleep well and don't wake with cramps!

Kerry...I bought 3 boxes of ketone strips about a week before finding the NK thread that Kristn started, and I tried to return them (still sealed) and they said that since it's a product that requires bodily fluids, they can't take it back. I said "It's sealed"! She said it makes no difference, so I've got 3 boxes around here. I had been told a few times how useless they were once you were on your way with LC eating...so true. But they were fun for a while.

Deborah....love the new photo of you and hubby....very very fun!

Buffy...hope you had fun on your birthday and won lots of $$$ so you can bring us all to Texas for a reunion!!!!

Pat (I think it was Pat)...hope you and hubby had a great anniversary.

Just listened to the Slow Burn Fitness show on Jimmy Moore....he wrote that book nearly 10 years ago??? Interesting and it *is* how I lift with the "speed", but I do many more reps, so am guessing that I need to UP my weight so that I can only lift for a minute. Very interesting concept. I do like the "stacking" effect for myself though. We shall see. I plan to go back to the gym on Wednesday. Tomorrow I'm in an all day mini quilting retreat!!!!! I should take my Nova Max Plus with me.....quilters are always pricking their fingers with pins/needles and I could be "at the ready". Just kidding!!!!!

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by reddarin

??? Did you melt it all together?

Yes I did, omg lol
Almost like an inside out jalapeno popper lol

[jillybean720]

Originally Posted by reddarin

JB, were/are you stalled?

As your insulin sensitivity increases your upper limit of carbs increases. From what I've read, insulin sensitivity is recoverable to some point. Being diabetic that may be very different for you.

If you are willing to put up with the hassle, you can measure exactly by weighing everything before you start, making a note of it, then weighing what you didn't use to get the net amount.

I do that for some of the stuff but I am not cooking for a family so it isn't too big a pain.

Good news is that I am not currently exhibiting any signs of diabetes. I had my weight loss surgery to beat my diabetes into submission, and it worked. My doctor actually deemed me "no longer diabetic." So, I would agree that insulin sensitivity is recoverable

I hate cooking and cleaning up after cooking) as it is, so I am not willing to go crazy with measuring/weighing my food. I can't even pretend that's a realistic expectation with how little time I have to spend in the kitchen daily.

Oh, and I can't say I'm stalled, really. I haven't lost weigh in many weeks, but I've also not been fully committed/on plan, so it's only a stall due to splurging and noncompliance. The last of the apples, tomato soup, etc., are gone as of today, so time to refocus my efforts. I've been on and off the wagon so many times in the last 6 months - had a baby, moved, became a landlord, lost my father, changed jobs...now that things seem to be settling down, I'm hoping to be able to shift my energy to better myself.

[jillybean720]

Originally Posted by Kerry

Yes I did, omg lol
Almost like an inside out jalapeno popper lol

Sounds awesome! Might have to try that and maybe add some chicken.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by jillybean720

Sounds awesome! Might have to try that and maybe add some chicken.

! That actually made my mouth water lol

[Kerry]

Happy Monday everyone!
So i'm shocked my weight is down again this morning. I prep talk my self every morning that I think i'm going to gain, and I don't..
I'm down to 149.6 i'm very happy..
Today is going to be a long day. I have a Dr appt after work (gyn, sorry if tmi red) lol
I prob won't be home till after 8.. Boooo

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by jillybean720

Good news is that I am not currently exhibiting any signs of diabetes. I had my weight loss surgery to beat my diabetes into submission, and it worked. My doctor actually deemed me "no longer diabetic." So, I would agree that insulin sensitivity is recoverable

That is excellent news! What I meant to point out, though, was that once you are diagnosed a diabetic, the line cannot be uncrossed insofar as how much sensitivity you can recover but the difference may be meaningless for all practical purposes with an LC woe.

Originally Posted by jillybean720

I hate cooking and cleaning up after cooking) as it is, so I am not willing to go crazy with measuring/weighing my food. I can't even pretend that's a realistic expectation with how little time I have to spend in the kitchen daily.

lol Know your limitations. It makes life so much easier

It isn't a show stopper though. The key is paying attention to what you are doing and developing a memory of what you've done while eye balling stuff. Does that make sense? Self awareness about it is the key.

Originally Posted by jillybean720

Oh, and I can't say I'm stalled, really. I haven't lost weigh in many weeks, but I've also not been fully committed/on plan, so it's only a stall due to splurging and noncompliance. The last of the apples, tomato soup, etc., are gone as of today, so time to refocus my efforts. I've been on and off the wagon so many times in the last 6 months - had a baby, moved, became a landlord, lost my father, changed jobs...now that things seem to be settling down, I'm hoping to be able to shift my energy to better myself.

You should expect to enjoy some symptoms of induction flu I reckon. I know I did when I kicked off NK the 10th of last month.

And I am so sorry to hear about your father