October Nutritional Ketosis Thread!

[One maur time]

Dear Shelley
Thanks. Like you I have not been diagnosed a pre -diabetic or diabetic. But I frequently test over 100 in the am. Also no fruit or grains for me. Although I might give some credence to the protein glucose dump discussed last week. Where a poster shared that if you are very efficient at converting protein to glucose it results in a dump of around 65 g of glucose- could give unusually high fasting glucose reading.

Maureen

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by omatic

Wow, I have not seen BK above 1.8 and can't seem to keep my calories below 1500. Lower than that and I am hungry.

Same with me, I have kept my calories below 1400 but it is a constant struggle and I don't want to have to do that unless I just can't lose without doing it. My ketones are usually 1. something too. That is first thing in the AM, I know they get higher as the day goes on, but I figure that might be fairly accurate and it is just my benchmark to know I am on track with what I am eating.

Ella, how old are you and what is your level of activity? You are really doing well

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

The day I went to the Dr. and my fasting BG was 125, then they had me come back in for further diabetes testing, and then called to tell me I did have it. So, say you had gone in that morning that it was 125, they might have tested you further. You may not be what they term diabetic yet, but from your fasting readings, I certainly think you might be headed there. Now, I am no expert at all, and your Dr. probably knows best, but to me, they seem to just seem unconcerned, and then when you HAVE it, they begin to treat you. What concerns me about your readings is that you are getting these while eating low carb. I was eating high carb, can you think what your readings might be if you were eating the SAD?

It just seems to me that this might be why you are having so much trouble losing weight, but, that is because I was the same, no matter what I did, I could not lose weight until I got on metformin.

Keep working on it, and best of luck to you!

Buffy....your post brought tears to my eyes. I wish I had a doctor that cared as much as you do! Thank you so much! I have been to 7 different docs in the 7 years I've lived here. Several fired me because they said "you know more about thyroid and hormones than I do, so I can't help you". Even the compounding pharmacist asked me questions so that she could give the doctors the answers that she asked me! It's really a small town here with very few options for medical people. I've had to self-diagnose for the last 3 years in order to get healthy (with the help of these forums!!!!) But I can't Rx for myself! So...I have to find someone in the "white coat" for such things. And I've pretty much exhausted all that are available. Thanks again, you are such a sweetheart!!!!!!

[shelley]

Originally Posted by One maur time

Dear Shelley
Thanks. Like you I have not been diagnosed a pre -diabetic or diabetic. But I frequently test over 100 in the am. Also no fruit or grains for me. Although I might give some credence to the protein glucose dump discussed last week. Where a poster shared that if you are very efficient at converting protein to glucose it results in a dump of around 65 g of glucose- could give unusually high fasting glucose reading.

Maureen

Isn't it bizarre how our bodies work! I think I will just "prick" my finger at different times instead of only in the early AM after waking. It's not a big deal to me anymore (totally painless), so I think I'll do my AM ketones and then do my glucose 1 or 2 hours post prandial. I did that once and it was interesting. Also, I'm using the novamax meter for the glucose as well as ketones and as I recall it rated something like 18 out of 20 meters tested by Consumer Reports??? Maybe I need to get the type Buffy uses or the freestyle ones that were also in the top 5 and see what happens. Maybe it's just the meter for glucose readings that are off? As Buffy said, it's quite bizarre that I eat no grains, no sugars, lowish protein for my height/weight, and still get those glucose readings....and imagine what they might be if I ate fruit and toast! ha ha (but someone here said that they had to be over 30 carbs to get *lower* glucose readings. So, it's all quite complex!

[omatic]

Shelley,

I wonder what your cortisol levels and adrenal function look like?

[EllaP]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Same with me, I have kept my calories below 1400 but it is a constant struggle and I don't want to have to do that unless I just can't lose without doing it. My ketones are usually 1. something too. That is first thing in the AM, I know they get higher as the day goes on, but I figure that might be fairly accurate and it is just my benchmark to know I am on track with what I am eating.

Ella, how old are you and what is your level of activity? You are really doing well

I'm old ... well, getting there at 53. My only activity other than working a full time office job, is constant reading on the internet. Really very little exercise other than the frequent up and down from my desk at the workplace.

I tend to not feel hungry if I'm busy doing something. Hungry or not, I could eat constantly if I wanted to, but then we know what would happen. Since I do love my food, I like to save my calories for the evening meal when I most enjoy it. I don't eat breakfast other than coconut oil in coffee. I have found if I do eat breakfast, I'm very hungry for lunch. For lunch I'll have minimal if anything. I sometimes have a very slight hungry feeling and water with lemon or broth will quell it quite nicely. If I do want to eat something for lunch, it's not usually more than 1/2 an avocado or maybe a hard boiled egg. That still allows me a more substantial meal in the evening and a snack. I don't consume anything other than water or diet soda after 8:00. So, other than coconut oil in morning coffee and the possible small lunch, I usually only eat between 5 and 8.

I also don't eat anything other than real foods, meaning meat, eggs, cheeses, vegetables. I don't make any lc baked goods or the like. They've always stalled me in the past. I'm stockpiling those recipes for maintenance. When I'm at maintenance, I will play around more with calories, protein grams, and more low-carb cooking/baking. I want to get there first and then figure out what I can and cannot do.

Have a great day everyone. I, too, am on the east coast and the wind is howling outside as I venture out to work.

[mom2zeke]

Good morning everyone!!

I hope everyone in the path of the storm is staying warm and dry today.

My ketone reading was down to .4 this morning. I'm not totally surprised, we had grilled steak for dinner and I ate much more than I intended to. I really have to limit my protein to stay in ketosis and sometimes it's harder than others.

How is everyone else doing this morning?

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Same with me, I have kept my calories below 1400 but it is a constant struggle and I don't want to have to do that unless I just can't lose without doing it. My ketones are usually 1. something too. That is first thing in the AM, I know they get higher as the day goes on, but I figure that might be fairly accurate and it is just my benchmark to know I am on track with what I am eating.

I am rooting for you that you can lose with calories at a higher level. I am one who couldn't lose my final weight without restricting calories lower than I'd like.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by shelley

Isn't it bizarre how our bodies work! I think I will just "prick" my finger at different times instead of only in the early AM after waking. It's not a big deal to me anymore (totally painless), so I think I'll do my AM ketones and then do my glucose 1 or 2 hours post prandial. I did that once and it was interesting. Also, I'm using the novamax meter for the glucose as well as ketones and as I recall it rated something like 18 out of 20 meters tested by Consumer Reports??? Maybe I need to get the type Buffy uses or the freestyle ones that were also in the top 5 and see what happens. Maybe it's just the meter for glucose readings that are off? As Buffy said, it's quite bizarre that I eat no grains, no sugars, lowish protein for my height/weight, and still get those glucose readings....and imagine what they might be if I ate fruit and toast! ha ha (but someone here said that they had to be over 30 carbs to get *lower* glucose readings. So, it's all quite complex!

I believe the Nova Max Meter wasn't highly rated for glucose measurement. The unscientific tests that people did for ketones had it reading slightly low (but still within acceptable boundaries) vs. the Precision meter.

I've had glucose readings all over the map with the Nova Max. If I was worried that my BG was high I might actually spring for another meter for BG. I don't think that they're too expensive.

[geogeo]

stepping out of the Lurking Closet. I really did mean to post an introduction earlier! And will give my details soon!
I've just spent so much time reading all the helpful information that everyone shares here!


Yeah, I use too many !!!!

Anyway, just wanted to post something about the ketone testing meters. I have the free Nova Max and I picked up the Precision Xtra and some strips online.
I found Jimmy Moore's comparison of the two meters very interesting. I have a limited supply of those expensive little strips, but I did do a couple comparison tests for ketones. I never got the Lo reading, but the Nova reads way lower than the Precision.

I am in ketosis but on the lower end. I was one of those low carbers who ate way too much protein! I have found it surprising that just a little too much protein raises my blood glucose and lowers my ketones.


I am loving this thread and all the regular posters here! (and the high fat thread) Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

Debby

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by geogeo

stepping out of the Lurking Closet. I really did mean to post an introduction earlier! And will give my details soon!
I've just spent so much time reading all the helpful information that everyone shares here!


Yeah, I use too many !!!!

Anyway, just wanted to post something about the ketone testing meters. I have the free Nova Max and I picked up the Precision Xtra and some strips online.
I found Jimmy Moore's comparison of the two meters very interesting. I have a limited supply of those expensive little strips, but I did do a couple comparison tests for ketones. I never got the Lo reading, but the Nova reads way lower than the Precision.

I am in ketosis but on the lower end. I was one of those low carbers who ate way too much protein! I have found it surprising that just a little too much protein raises my blood glucose and lowers my ketones.


I am loving this thread and all the regular posters here! (and the high fat thread) Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

Debby

Debby! It's great to have you here.

That's interesting information that your Nova reads low compared to the Precision. When you say "way lower" can you say by how much (is it always the same)? I wonder if it varies from meter to meter?

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by shelley

Buffy....your post brought tears to my eyes. I wish I had a doctor that cared as much as you do! Thank you so much! I have been to 7 different docs in the 7 years I've lived here. Several fired me because they said "you know more about thyroid and hormones than I do, so I can't help you". Even the compounding pharmacist asked me questions so that she could give the doctors the answers that she asked me! It's really a small town here with very few options for medical people. I've had to self-diagnose for the last 3 years in order to get healthy (with the help of these forums!!!!) But I can't Rx for myself! So...I have to find someone in the "white coat" for such things. And I've pretty much exhausted all that are available. Thanks again, you are such a sweetheart!!!!!!

HOW TOTALLY FRUSTRATED you have to be to not have more options for doctors. Don't know how far you are from a city, but you do need a better doctor. Ok, here's another, not so good choice. Eat the SAD for a couple of months and then when your FBG is high enough, maybe they would finally realize you have diabetes??? Not a good solution, but geez.

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Debby! It's great to have you here.

That's interesting information that your Nova reads low compared to the Precision. When you say "way lower" can you say by how much (is it always the same)? I wonder if it varies from meter to meter?

Yes, Debby, please tell us more. It read lower on glucose or ketones? Or both? And, I haven't read Jimmy's comparison of the two meters, will have to go to his site and find that. I will say, as a diabetic, I don't use the nova for my glucose readings, found it way unreliable. I use my Accu-check compact plus meter for glucose. Love it.

[Buffy45]

Ok, today was measuring and posting my weight day. Looks like I lost 2 lbs this month and that is with higher calories for the last 2-3 weeks. Slow but if I kept this up at a steady rate, I would not be unhappy with it. My waist continues to go down a little each week as well as my thigh measurement. From what I have read, that means the NK is definitely working as it should. I have read that you should be losing fat from your mid section and I am doing that.

So, it looks like I can continue where I am and lose very slowly, or, play around with restricting my calories a little more and see what happens. I do have a menu planned out for today that keeps calories at about 1200, will see if I am hungry on that. Also, I have had a little trouble lately keeping my protein up to 59, which is the low end of my range, so need to be more careful on that. Seems like I eat a lot of meat, eggs, but I still have a little trouble getting it up there.

[geogeo]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Debby! It's great to have you here.

That's interesting information that your Nova reads low compared to the Precision. When you say "way lower" can you say by how much (is it always the same)? I wonder if it varies from meter to meter?

Thank you Kristin! And thank you so much for starting these threads.

It was pretty much in line with the pictures on Jimmy's blog post. I think you would find his blog pretty interesting. I will go check my logbook for my differences in a few minutes! Guess it would make more sense to check before I post. I'll just edit when I get back.

[geogeo]

More of my "intro":

Age 54, gained about 10 pounds recently, but probably only needed 5.

At first I found it hard to cut down on protein even though I was eating fatty sources for the most part. I was definitely eating a ton of protein for years, which I've recently found, thru testing my blood sugar regularly, was increasing my blood glucose (also lowers my ketones).

My problem is most likely due to the fact that I've been overeating protein since I started working out with weights and eating the body building type of diet over 6 1/2 years ago. I was octo/lacto/vegetarian (ethical reasons) at the time, but ate a lot of protein. Also ate salmon and sardines. Yeah, big mistake.
I wasn't overweight at the time, but I heard Jimmy Moore interview Charles Washington in the spring/early summer of 2008. He was talking about being a half-marathoner and eating zero carb. The benefit was that as a fat burner he wouldn't bonk during long runs. That is what appealed to me.
I think I had low carb the previous summer. Before that I knew nothing about insulin, blood sugar, etc. Read the books (yeah, I'm a nutritional/fitness geek lol).
Decided to give zc a try as I finally had access to local free range grass fed beef and started eating ground beef the end of July that year after 16 years of no meat other than fish/shellfish. Did my experiment for 3 months. Then went to just regular low carb. No grains (except for a few corn chip overfeeds lol. none since March of this year though!) Stopped drinking soda in Jan 2001, stopped eating candy (except for very dark chocolate) in April 2001. Eat what would probably be called primal (paleo with raw amish cream, yogurt on occasion, grass fed butter)


Ok, sorry for writing a book.

One more thing. I just listened to Jimmy Moore's latest "Ask the Low Carb Doctor" this morning. Had a scheduling conflict, a.k.a. Guest didn't show up, and so he did a question/answer show on his current NK. Very interesting.

[Buffy45]

Thanks for letting us get to know you better Geogeo. And, I will go listen to that podcast from Jimmy.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

HOW TOTALLY FRUSTRATED you have to be to not have more options for doctors. Don't know how far you are from a city, but you do need a better doctor. Ok, here's another, not so good choice. Eat the SAD for a couple of months and then when your FBG is high enough, maybe they would finally realize you have diabetes??? Not a good solution, but geez.

Hi all...well, I was in tears this morning. The scale went up yet again...ketones went down to .5 and I had "perfect" grams of everything yesterday. Hubby said he has never known anyone to work so hard at anything like I do, and that he can only imagine what I'd look like if I just ate like most people. Unfortunately, that didn't help. My weight is back up to where I started Sept. 1st....my ketones are barely in the "range", and my glucose was once again 105. I'm going to test 1 hr PP (after only bacon, coffee, HWC and MCT oil) and then 2 hours PP to see what happens after purely having protein and fat and barely any carbs in the bacon.

I don't know what SAD is, but I don't want to undo what I've worked hard for in the last 2 months (NK eating) as I am going to TRY to wait this out 6 months and then see what happens per that Sten Skaldeman (sp?) doctor had to say.

I've done 1200 calories, 1600 calories, 1800 calories, 70 to 90% fat and fat fasts. The only time I had good ketone readings were the fat fast days and that is no way to live! I try to stay in the 80-83% fat range and carbs are always total under 20....usually 10-15 with net being in single digits. So, I know I'm eating right. I"m really frustrated, but at the same time, I've very happy for all of you that are seeing results.

Anyone else 5' 5-3/4" tall, female, post-menopausal (I'm 64) and having losses? I have tried the 47 grams of protein...didn't work. I have tried the 60 grams of protein...didn't work. Those are the 2 levels that are "low end" according to Red's calculations and Phinney/Volek for me. So...what now?

I can't blame everything on the Nova Max as the ketones are low and the glucose is "up" for me. So???? I have no idea. Red had no idea. I'm feeling lost and frustrated and ready to go back to nonfat eating as at least I did lose 20# that way last year. As soon as I switched to Atkins induction under the watchful eye of a LC nutritionist, I gained it all back...nice and slow, but it just came back completely. And, please don't say that this is where my body wants to be. I'm nearly 40% bodyfat on the regular Tanita (30% in athletic mode), and that is NOT acceptable to me.

Sorry this is so long.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by omatic

Shelley,

I wonder what your cortisol levels and adrenal function look like?

I went through all that 3 years ago and have gotten myself to a really good range. No problems there. I sleep 7.5 hours solid every night (lately with the darkness it's closer to 8 hours). I'm well optimized with thyroid too. So, all is well there. I also was able to get OFF all BHRT this last summer by eating LC and having more fat (pre NK eating - Atkins induction) All horrible symptoms went away. But it's a good thought...and 3 years ago I would have said I was "near death" with the lowest possible score for adrenal function....horrible experience which is long behind me, thank goodness!!!

[shelley]

Wow...2 newbies...how very fun to have lurkers coming out of the closet!!!! Welcome to you both!

Interesting about the tests of the 2 meters. I can't listen to the podcasts as I have dial up and it's a 3 hour process to download about 20 minutes it seems. So, if there is something really of interest, can you "write" what it is instead of saying to google a certain podcast...I can't do that where I live. I have 3 Nova Max meters...got the free one, and bought 2 due to the "sale" of the strips that came with them being cheaper to buy the "package" than the strips alone. I"m thinking of getting another glucose meter, but I've tested 2 meters of the 3 I have and they are both wacky high (for me).

The Precision one and strips are more pricey than the Nova Max, so don't think I'll go that route. I only have about 5 Nova max ketone strips left. I think I'll stop testing and go through all my food logs, weight charts, and see what I ate the day before a drop and the day before a gain, and also compare to my ketone readings what was up the day before. What a chore! Arrggghhh......

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Ok, today was measuring and posting my weight day. Looks like I lost 2 lbs this month and that is with higher calories for the last 2-3 weeks. Slow but if I kept this up at a steady rate, I would not be unhappy with it. My waist continues to go down a little each week as well as my thigh measurement. From what I have read, that means the NK is definitely working as it should. I have read that you should be losing fat from your mid section and I am doing that.

[shelley]

Question for Buffy and others knowledgeable about glucose readings. Had 5 pieces of bacon and coffee with HWC and MCT oil for breakfast..... Fasting glucose this morning before breakfast was 105. 1 hour after breakfast, glucose was 82.

What does all this mean to you? That I shouldn't bother testing for glucose in the AM before food? And why would it be higher after fasting than after eating fat/protein?

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Ok, today was measuring and posting my weight day. Looks like I lost 2 lbs this month and that is with higher calories for the last 2-3 weeks. Slow but if I kept this up at a steady rate, I would not be unhappy with it. My waist continues to go down a little each week as well as my thigh measurement. From what I have read, that means the NK is definitely working as it should. I have read that you should be losing fat from your mid section and I am doing that.

So, it looks like I can continue where I am and lose very slowly, or, play around with restricting my calories a little more and see what happens. I do have a menu planned out for today that keeps calories at about 1200, will see if I am hungry on that. Also, I have had a little trouble lately keeping my protein up to 59, which is the low end of my range, so need to be more careful on that. Seems like I eat a lot of meat, eggs, but I still have a little trouble getting it up there.

Buffy--Congratulations on your losses!

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by shelley

Question for Buffy and others knowledgeable about glucose readings. Had 5 pieces of bacon and coffee with HWC and MCT oil for breakfast..... Fasting glucose this morning before breakfast was 105. 1 hour after breakfast, glucose was 82.

What does all this mean to you? That I shouldn't bother testing for glucose in the AM before food? And why would it be higher after fasting than after eating fat/protein?

Shelley, I am not probably the one to ask on that. I have always just kept my numbers at what the Dr. said they should be, the lower the better. Of course without going too low. I have never been good at reading, digesting or retaining all the science behind it all. I do know that many of us diabetics have high FBG readings, then they will go down once we are up and around. It doesn't surprise me that after pretty much all fat and protein that your number was 82 after 1 hour, there was nothing there to push the number up.
SAD means standard american diet.
Have you spent any time over on the diabetes website? Don't know how much you time you want to spend reading and trying to digest all of that info.
When I found out I had diabetes, I was satisfied to just take the meds the Dr. gave me and my numbers fell into place where they wanted them to be, and I lost over 30 lbs easily, due to the meds bringing my constant high BS down. I continued to eat tons of carbs/sugar, crap and let the meds do the work, even though I knew that LC would be better for me. Just like now, I know adding some walking would be better for me, but just haven't gotten into that mindset yet. Then, I watched my DB suffer the consequences of not taking care of his type 2 diabetes, lost him a little over a year ago and I really begin to think that if I don't do more about this, that is going to be me in a few years. Finally started to just slowly, little by little, start to gain some of the weight back. Actually I had lost over 40 lbs, then gained 10 back. That is when I decided to do LC and when I came back to LCF's and looked around, well, what did I find, the NK thread that Kristn had started. Got interested and am sooo happy I did.

I just don't know what to tell you to do, short of moving somewhere where you have access to some good doctors and or nutritional guidance to help you sort this all out.

And, if all else fails and LF worked for you, perhaps you might think about going back to that. Same program never fits all of us.

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Buffy--Congratulations on your losses!

Thanks

Funny thing today, having trouble eating enough . I am just NOT HUNGRY. Had a breakfast planned, did not want it at all. Skipped to lunch and just had chicken and roasted chicken skin. Yummy but didn't eat all that was on my plate. Have to eat what I have planned for the rest of the day to get my protein in but will barely be at 1200 calories. Good for one day, here and there, won't hurt anything.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by shelley

Question for Buffy and others knowledgeable about glucose readings. Had 5 pieces of bacon and coffee with HWC and MCT oil for breakfast..... Fasting glucose this morning before breakfast was 105. 1 hour after breakfast, glucose was 82.

Thank you Buffy for your post. I haven't gone to the diabetes area at all...stick with these 2 NK threads only.

I just did the 2 hr PP test for glucose and should have stuck with my happy 82 above. But 2 hours after my bfast and not having anything else, the test was 103.

I looked up endos for within an hour of me...one group at a hospital an hour away, and it was not recommended by a friend whose husband is diabetic. He drives 2 hours to an NP that does not follow "protocol" at all. So...I guess that's that!

My problem now is that I've invested 2 months into NK and still think that I may be one of those that needs to hang in there for 6 months! so, going back to nonfat would undo that 1/3 timeframe into the 6 months. Oh, what to do, what to do?

I love these little icons!!!!! So happy I was told how to do them. I'm off to the gym to take out my frustration on the weights!

Thanks again Buffy.

[geogeo]

Shelley, I really really know how frustrating this is for you. Wish I could help. Big Cyber Hug.

Did you read the blog post Jimmy put up comparing the nova and the precision? My (much shorter timespan) experience is similar to his in that the nova reads a significant amount lower than the precision. Supposedly the precision was compared by someone who had access to a lab and it was pretty accurate.
I only mention that because it seems like a positive thing if the nova shows ketosis even if it reads low.

Buffy, congrats!! And mmmmmmm chicken skin! Oh, you make me want to take some chicken out of the freezer and cook it before we lose power! If only it was already defrosted!

Love cast iron skillets! My oldest one is one my Dad gave me decades ago. I don't use them that much since I prefer my beef practically still mooing.

[geogeo]

Shelley,

I don't know if it is inappropriate to quote from a blog (i just did a random search for NK and menopause)
and found this at itsthesatiety
This Blog is Written By:
Dr. Deanne M Roberts, MD. (Dea). She is in Victoria, BC,

just quoting a small section. There is a ton more info on that page alone. I think it is the first time I've found that site.

If the blood glucose level is falling and the liver is not keeping up with need, a sudden surge in hormones can bring a surge in glucose output. This most often happens with exercise and during the night, especially in the early morning and pre-dawn hours. When a sudden surge in hormones is triggered, this is not a finely calibrated response. The resulting glucose output is generally more than what is needed. In someone with diabetes or glucose intolerance, this may show as a rise in blood glucose above normal, and insulin secretion will go up if their body has the ability to do so. In someone with normal insulin function, the rise in glucose will not be above the normal range, because insulin will go up to handle the glucose. Any rise in insulin inhibits ketone production.

Besides sudden surges of stress hormones, many people have raised stress hormone levels at various times of the day and night. Many people have chronic elevations of stress hormones, particularly as they get older, and particularly at night.

I wonder if this has a bit of a role to play in why it is so famously difficult for post-menopausal women to lose weight. This is a very large topic and this suggestion is not meant to over-simplify the picture, but, as a general group, post-menopausal women are famous for having poor quality sleep – and even more so if they have hot flashes or night sweats. Some women in this situation may be producing enough glucose at night to trigger enough insulin to suppress ketone production. This would not be detected by blood glucose testing if insulin function was normal.

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by shelley

Thank you Buffy for your post. I haven't gone to the diabetes area at all...stick with these 2 NK threads only.

I just did the 2 hr PP test for glucose and should have stuck with my happy 82 above. But 2 hours after my bfast and not having anything else, the test was 103.

I looked up endos for within an hour of me...one group at a hospital an hour away, and it was not recommended by a friend whose husband is diabetic. He drives 2 hours to an NP that does not follow "protocol" at all. So...I guess that's that!

My problem now is that I've invested 2 months into NK and still think that I may be one of those that needs to hang in there for 6 months! so, going back to nonfat would undo that 1/3 timeframe into the 6 months. Oh, what to do, what to do?

I love these little icons!!!!! So happy I was told how to do them. I'm off to the gym to take out my frustration on the weights!

Thanks again Buffy.

Shelley, a drive of one to two hours is nothing if you can find the help you need. I drive 40 minutes to go to the endo of my choice and pass by dozens on the way.

[One maur time]

Welcome
I hope you can incorporate the valuable information the posters share. Join us on this journey!
Maureen