October Nutritional Ketosis Thread!

[Kerry]

Im stalking you guys thread!

Question... I love fat fast, fat melts off me.. Is this something to kind of follow then scale back and add more protein and calories? I'm just curious because I feel great while on that and I magically shrink (but then can't lose on induction.. )

[JMCM1]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

I've found something resembling a non-athlete's book about eating a nutritional ketosis diet for weight loss: Sten Sture Skaldeman's "Lose Weight by Eating (Scandinavian diet)." I got the book from Amazon, where it's available on Kindle for $8; since it has recipes but not pictures, I think it would work okay on Kindle. (I bought a paperback version.) This is translated from Swedish and is definitely focused on weight loss for insulin-resistent people by eating a high-fat, lowcarb diet. The author urges people to not only limit carbs but also to make sure that the ratio of fat to protein and carbs is high in whatever they eat (so his many recipes add cream, butter, and/or cheese to most savory dishes). For the most insulin-resistent people (and he places himself in this group), carbs are very low (net carbs around 12-14/day) and fat makes up about 80 percent of calories. He says that it may take multiple months for people's bodies to adjust to burning fat effectively, so that's heartening to people who aren't getting results right away while trying to be in nutritional ketosis. I don't have the book with me, but I'll try to remember to bring it in to work and post some salient quotes and details.

I really appreciate your interest in this subject. Your posts have been instructive from the beginning.

[Buffy45]

Huge congrats to Kristn on getting her CPA, I know that is an extremely hard exam to pass!!

[Pot Pie]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Okay, I know that it's totally off topic but I just have to share with all my NK friends. Some of you know that I am divorced. The ex and I split up not long after I lost my initial weight. At the time I had been a SAH mom for 11+ years and wasn't sure what to do about a career. Over the years I've tried a few different paths, but 4 years ago I started the process that culminated today with my CPA license! I can't tell you how good it feels to have made it to this goal. And I'm at my goal weight too!

Congratulations that is awesome. You are an inspiration!

I am finishing up day 3 of this NK plan. I feel like I could eat a rare ribeye the size of my face. Still craving protein. At least I am not craving carbs. TOM is coming up so I have gained some and not lost but it is early in the process. I feel like my body is eyeing me and wondering what I am doing to it!

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by JMCM1

I really appreciate your interest in this subject. Your posts have been instructive from the beginning.

Just ordered this book, only problem is slow shipping but so glad to hear about it

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by Kerry

Im stalking you guys thread!

Question... I love fat fast, fat melts off me.. Is this something to kind of follow then scale back and add more protein and calories? I'm just curious because I feel great while on that and I magically shrink (but then can't lose on induction.. )

I think you could follow the approach of gradually adding carbs (like leafy greens) and protein to a fat-fast diet, and see how things go. Most of us started with eating low carbs but relatively high protein, so we got to NK by trimming down our protein levels. I know that induction specifications keep carbs low, but there's no limit on protein, and that's where many of us seem to have stalled, with getting our protein levels too high. Do you have a sense of how many grams of protein per day you were eating during induction (tell us how tall you are, too, to evaluate the figure)?

[shelley]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

Kristn, congratuations on getting your CPA license! This is a year of many goals met for you, and I hope things just keep getting better for you.

It's hard to keep up with all the reports here, so I'll just say congratulations to those who are losing or are staying on plan, or both. And sorry about your son's FFA teacher's death, mom_2_4; I hope that he and his friends who were close to this teacher can take some comfort from each other in sharing good memories of that person.

I've found something resembling a non-athlete's book about eating a nutritional ketosis diet for weight loss: Sten Sture Skaldeman's "Lose Weight by Eating (Scandinavian diet)." I got the book from Amazon, where it's available on Kindle for $8; since it has recipes but not pictures, I think it would work okay on Kindle. (I bought a paperback version.) This is translated from Swedish and is definitely focused on weight loss for insulin-resistent people by eating a high-fat, lowcarb diet. The author urges people to not only limit carbs but also to make sure that the ratio of fat to protein and carbs is high in whatever they eat (so his many recipes add cream, butter, and/or cheese to most savory dishes). For the most insulin-resistent people (and he places himself in this group), carbs are very low (net carbs around 12-14/day) and fat makes up about 80 percent of calories. He says that it may take multiple months for people's bodies to adjust to burning fat effectively, so that's heartening to people who aren't getting results right away while trying to be in nutritional ketosis. I don't have the book with me, but I'll try to remember to bring it in to work and post some salient quotes and details.

Thank you so much for posting this!!!! I'm one of those that is not losing as quickly as everyone else, and also not getting the ketones high like everyone else. It's reassuring to know that it might take *months* for me. I've been doing 79-83% fat, my "proper protein" and under 15 carbs usually. So, sounds like me! Thanks!

[svenskamae]

Thanks, Kristn, Judy, and Buffy. I'll be interested to hear what you think of the book, if you read it.

I also read "The Scandinavian Diet: Healthy with Low Carbs," by the Norwegian Dr. Sofie Hexeberg. She uses case studies from 35 of her patients (including their blood test results before and after eating lowcarb) to build the case that a diet of 20 or less net carbs per day can improve or control a lot of health problems, such as diabetes, joint pain, migraine, and PCOS. She sees the mechanism as stopping blood sugar ups and downs (too high or low insulin, cortisol, etc), but my guess is that a fair number of the patients were also allergic/intolerant to wheat/gluten, and giving up grains helped them as much as reducing carbs per se. It's an interesting book, but not as much a "how-to" manual as the Skaldeman book, and it doesn't have many recipes. It is clear that Hexeberg assumes that people will replace the carbs they formerly ate with fat or with fat "and a little more protein."

Interestingly, both the Hexeberg book and the Skaldeman book recommend briefly raising carbs and then lowering them again as a remedy for people who stall for a month or longer after being fully acclimatized to the ketogenic diet. I know that can be scary for people to do, though.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by shelley

Thank you so much for posting this!!!! I'm one of those that is not losing as quickly as everyone else, and also not getting the ketones high like everyone else. It's reassuring to know that it might take *months* for me. I've been doing 79-83% fat, my "proper protein" and under 15 carbs usually. So, sounds like me! Thanks!

I was thinking of you, Cathy, and drjlocarb when I posted that, Shelley. I'll be sure to post the passages that specifically refer to this adaptation period, when I have the book in hand and am at the computer (soon).

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by Pot Pie

Congratulations that is awesome. You are an inspiration!

I am finishing up day 3 of this NK plan. I feel like I could eat a rare ribeye the size of my face. Still craving protein. At least I am not craving carbs. TOM is coming up so I have gained some and not lost but it is early in the process. I feel like my body is eyeing me and wondering what I am doing to it!

Based on my experience, it gets way easier to feel satisfied with the fat and live with less protein, eventually, but there were times when I was so hungry at the start that I couldn't think straight. Give it a few weeks, and let yourself eat a substantial amount of fat.

If it's too hard to white knuckle through, cut back 5-10 grams of protein per week until you eventually get to the lower level.

I figured out a bunch of meals that felt filling but had relatively little protein, like a bunch of chard sauteed with 2 strips of bacon and some butter or creamed spinach and a single egg fried in lots of butter. You might want to figure out a way to eat two meals per day with some protein and then eat a high fat snack in between. I find it easiest to skip breakfast, so I had just coffee with cream for that and saved my protein for lunch and dinner.

[Pot Pie]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

Based on my experience, it gets way easier to feel satisfied with the fat and live with less protein, eventually, but there were times when I was so hungry at the start that I couldn't think straight. Give it a few weeks, and let yourself eat a substantial amount of fat.

If it's too hard to white knuckle through, cut back 5-10 grams of protein per week until you eventually get to the lower level.

I figured out a bunch of meals that felt filling but had relatively little protein, like a bunch of chard sauteed with 2 strips of bacon and some butter or creamed spinach and a single egg fried in lots of butter. You might want to figure out a way to eat two meals per day with some protein and then eat a high fat snack in between. I find it easiest to skip breakfast, so I had just coffee with cream for that and saved my protein for lunch and dinner.

I decided I would eat protein at breakfast and dinner to try and space it out evenly. I have been having fatty lunches. I don't have any idea if spacing it out matters but I figure it can't hurt.

I am white knuckling a little bit but I'm pretty good at it. Weighing and logging works for me, and reading this board. I really appreciate your reply, it's good to know this weird craving feeling won't last forever. Thank you.

[clairie]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Okay, I know that it's totally off topic but I just have to share with all my NK friends. Some of you know that I am divorced. The ex and I split up not long after I lost my initial weight. At the time I had been a SAH mom for 11+ years and wasn't sure what to do about a career. Over the years I've tried a few different paths, but 4 years ago I started the process that culminated today with my CPA license! I can't tell you how good it feels to have made it to this goal. And I'm at my goal weight too!

Congratulations!!!! That's really great!

[Miles]

Hey, sorry if this sounds dumb, but what do you guys mean by "white knuckling"? (Pot Pie, svenskamae)

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

I think you could follow the approach of gradually adding carbs (like leafy greens) and protein to a fat-fast diet, and see how things go. Most of us started with eating low carbs but relatively high protein, so we got to NK by trimming down our protein levels. I know that induction specifications keep carbs low, but there's no limit on protein, and that's where many of us seem to have stalled, with getting our protein levels too high. Do you have a sense of how many grams of protein per day you were eating during induction (tell us how tall you are, too, to evaluate the figure)?

I imagine I ate way to much protein and with that comes to many calories.. blegh lol

I'm 5'8

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Kerry

I imagine I ate way to much protein and with that comes to many calories.. blegh lol

I'm 5'8

No, not really Kerry. Boneless skinless chicken breasts are very low calorie but lots of protein. It isn't hard to get a lot of protein in for very little calories. Protein and Carbs are only 4 calories a gram.

[reddarin]

Congrats on your accomplishment Kristn. I know that was a lot of work!

[Kerry]

Originally Posted by reddarin

No, not really Kerry. Boneless skinless chicken breasts are very low calorie but lots of protein. It isn't hard to get a lot of protein in for very little calories. Protein and Carbs are only 4 calories a gram.

Skinless is not in my vocabulary! I love me done dark meat with skin
But half a London broil can be to much lol

[route66]

Totals for today:

Cals 1565
C: 59
P: 59
F: 129

On cue I went up a couple pounds water weight on the weekend. Down today, but not as far as last week's low.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Kerry

Skinless is not in my vocabulary! I love me done dark meat with skin
But half a London broil can be to much lol

It is funny, up until about 25 years ago I never ate dark meat chicken. They use a lot of it in Korean dishes so I got to liking it back then.

[clackley]

Originally Posted by Miles

Hey, sorry if this sounds dumb, but what do you guys mean by "white knuckling"? (Pot Pie, svenskamae)

White knuckling means that a person is just barely accomplishing what they are trying to do. It comes from the idea that we hold on so hard that our knuckles appear white in appearance.

Sven, thank you so much for that reference from the book Sten Sture Skaldeman's "Lose Weight by Eating ". I would love to hear more about the science he has to offer. It is encouraging to know that it may be a question of time!

Originally Posted by mom2zeke
Okay, I know that it's totally off topic but I just have to share with all my NK friends. Some of you know that I am divorced. The ex and I split up not long after I lost my initial weight. At the time I had been a SAH mom for 11+ years and wasn't sure what to do about a career. Over the years I've tried a few different paths, but 4 years ago I started the process that culminated today with my CPA license! I can't tell you how good it feels to have made it to this goal. And I'm at my goal weight too!

I love to hear stories like yours! Congratulations.

[Pot Pie]

I slept like a rock the last few nights. Usually on low carb I don't sleep very well at first. Have trouble falling asleep and wake up too early. But I've been sleeping great. I have been taking 500mg magnesium and a couple of 99mg potassium tablets in the evening every night. Getting salt isn't a problem as I am a salt monster. I wonder if it's just that I have been taking these supplements faithfully instead of forgetting sometimes?

[drjlocarb]

Low carb DOES cause insulin resistance. BUT, it is physiological insulin resistance. I have this problem and with the high protein levels and the VERY efficient liver, it was driving my FBG too high. But the minute I increased the carbs, my FBG fell to normal levels. At no point did my BG go sky high after meals..LC or not.

My understanding of physiological insulin resistance is that as the supply of glucose decreases and the supply of ketones increases, some cells turn off the receptors for glucose and that makes them insulin resistant. It is like they are just being polite and will use ketones and save the glucose for the cell that NEED glucose. It is not a permanent thing, just a physiological thing.

My liver thinks it's being a real hero and will pump out too much glucose for everyone even if they want to use ketones. So the poor little ketones get shuttled back into the fat cells.

I am hoping by decreasing the protein available and increasing the dietary fat, I will convince my liver that there is no famine and to just let fat do what fat is supposed to do.

The adaptation IS training your body. There are different pathways and enzymes needed to digest fats/ptn/carbs that are genetically coded for and the cells need time to up-regulate these to enable them to produce the ATP needed to run each individual cell. It takes time for the body to change this system. It will change the enzymes/pathways needed in response to food in the diet.

What this tells me is if you are doing LC/HP/MF, the body will up-regulate pathways for protein digestion(gluconeogenesis) and down regulate carb digestion, but will not up-regulate fat metabolism. BUT, if you eat LC/MP/HF, the body will up-regulate the fat burning pathways which "trains" your body to metabolize fat(ketogenesis) and it will easier to switch to using FFA released from your fat cells once it is used to utilizing fat from dietary sources.

I think many LC people have a problem with the concept of eating a higher fat diet thinking that the body should be supplying all the fat and we don't need to be eating it. But, if you aren't eating it as a higher % of your calories, the body will not get the "hint" and switch to ketogenesis. I think the pathways are signaled from dietary input. The fat is supposed to be for emergencies and if you are eating carbs and/or protein as your main dietary sources, it will regulate to what it thinks will be in constant supply and leave the stored fat alone.

This training process will not happen overnight.(turning genes on and off)


I think I have trained my body to use protein VERY efficiently, but not so much with fat. I can use fat when needed as I have been in ketosis for 3 years with no weight loss for the last 2, but the nutritional ketosis levels are proof that the body has fully adapted to using fat as a major fuel source.

I need to down regulate gluconeogenesis and try to up-regulate ketogenesis.


Do I think all LC dieters need to be this strict? NO, but I think those who have stalled on LC may need to consider it.

Generic LC worked great for me in the past, but I think my body has decided LC is normal and the higher protein has made me very efficient at LC/HP WOE and this is why I have high FBG on LC but not on a higher carb diet. I think the gene expression for a LC/HP diet are always sitting in the background waiting to be used, but the HF pathways are not fully in use.

Shelly, these^^^ are re-prints of 2 past posts I made to try to explain what I feel is the problem for those of us who are long time LC, stalled(years), have high f/g, and low b/k readings on NK.

[mom2zeke]

Good morning everyone!

Pot Pie--glad to hear that you're sleeping well!

drjlocarb--great post! I totally agree that if you're eating high protein/LC that your body may get to be extremely good a gluconeogenesis and resist burning fat. Getting those ketogenic pathways primed with dietary fat and lowered protein seems to be the key to making the switch.

This morning ketones were 1.9, BG 87, weight 148.6 (up .2). It's going to be hard to rip off the band-aid and stop testing ketones. I find it reassuring to see that number every day.

And thanks for the kudos everyone. I am so happy to be part of this group!

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by Pot Pie

I slept like a rock the last few nights. Usually on low carb I don't sleep very well at first. Have trouble falling asleep and wake up too early. But I've been sleeping great. I have been taking 500mg magnesium and a couple of 99mg potassium tablets in the evening every night. Getting salt isn't a problem as I am a salt monster. I wonder if it's just that I have been taking these supplements faithfully instead of forgetting sometimes?

Yes, the magnesium does help a lot of us sleep much better. Just went on a trip with 6 other family members, I was the only one who slept well every night.

[Buffy45]

Thanks for that post Drjlocarb, it helps me understand this a little better but I still have a long way to go and much to learn. I am printing it out for my NK info file.

[Buffy45]

Happy to report that I got on the scale this morning after my 4 day trip, which included flying and still showed a loss for this past week. A new low this AM so I am very happy.

Sure wish I knew the number of calories I ate each day b/c I am pretty sure I ate higher calories than I have been at home and would love to know that I could do that and continue to lose, then, when I get lower in weight and hit a stall, it will give me some wiggle room to reduce calories. I did feel like I was eating more protein and calories than at home but wasn't going to take the chance of getting too hungry and then being tempted to eat something I shouldn't.

[mom_2_4]

Good morning everyone!!! I was down a pound this morning which puts me exactly at 210 so that is pretty darn good!!! It seems like in the last week I have been averaging about a pound a day so I guess my ratios are where they need to be!

I got an email last night saying that my meter has shipped, although I have seen some of you discussing there accuracy. I have still been using the urine strips at lest once a day and usually twice if I think about it. I went completely out of ketosis according to them when I went off track, took a couple of days to get back into ketosis but now that I have I've been getting a constant "moderate" reading and it was even high once! I know everyone says there not accurate either but I think it gives some kind of indication I'm doing something right Hope everyone has a FABULOUS day!!!

And Kristin congrats on getting your CPA, you go girl cause that math crap blows my mind LOL

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Happy to report that I got on the scale this morning after my 4 day trip, which included flying and still showed a loss for this past week. A new low this AM so I am very happy.

Sure wish I knew the number of calories I ate each day b/c I am pretty sure I ate higher calories than I have been at home and would love to know that I could do that and continue to lose, then, when I get lower in weight and hit a stall, it will give me some wiggle room to reduce calories. I did feel like I was eating more protein and calories than at home but wasn't going to take the chance of getting too hungry and then being tempted to eat something I shouldn't.

Congratulations on your loss! Especially when traveling. Amazing job!!

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by mom_2_4

Good morning everyone!!! I was down a pound this morning which puts me exactly at 210 so that is pretty darn good!!! It seems like in the last week I have been averaging about a pound a day so I guess my ratios are where they need to be!

I got an email last night saying that my meter has shipped, although I have seen some of you discussing there accuracy. I have still been using the urine strips at lest once a day and usually twice if I think about it. I went completely out of ketosis according to them when I went off track, took a couple of days to get back into ketosis but now that I have I've been getting a constant "moderate" reading and it was even high once! I know everyone says there not accurate either but I think it gives some kind of indication I'm doing something right Hope everyone has a FABULOUS day!!!

And Kristin congrats on getting your CPA, you go girl cause that math crap blows my mind LOL

Thanks mom_2_4!

And congratulations on your losses!!! Keep up the good work!

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by Miles

Hey, sorry if this sounds dumb, but what do you guys mean by "white knuckling"? (Pot Pie, svenskamae)

Just forcing yourself to put up with something difficult, rather than modifying your behavior to be less uncomfortable. So "white knuckling" while you get used to less protein means eating the low amount of protein, even though you are hungry, and just putting up with the hunger (until, eventually, your body gets used to a high fat diet).

I suppose another analogy would be quitting cigarettes cold turkey and just hanging in there, avoiding nicotine in any form, until the cravings finally died off (i.e., white knuckling it through quitting smoking).