October Nutritional Ketosis Thread!

[SouthernGirl61]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Um. Having been the victim on numerous occasions it is a lot more akin to Granny whipping Jethro all around the mansion than Gibbs with the occasional reality check.

Oh, I completely forgot about that! Yep, that was quite a show! And memories are coming back of Mamma chasing my brother, yes, southern life is amusing at times!

[shelley]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

Shelley, what do you think is going wrong? How many grams of fat, protein and carbs are you eating each day?

Hi Rebecca....don't know what is "wrong", but I've been doing approx 47-50 grams protein (15-17%), 120-160 grams of fat (80-85%) and under 20 total carbs (under 5%). But I have been OUT of ketosis all last week and got a lovely 1.5# gain. (Lost 3# LBM and gained 3# in fat)...I"m going the wrong way.

I have dropped my calories from 1600 to 1200 as well to no avail.

The only thing I can figure is that I'm one of those that the Swedish doc/author talks about who doesn't get into ketosis no matter what for up to 6 months!

I never did get my ketones up like most...usually it was .6 to .9 and then poof, it dropped to .3 on MOnday and was yesterday at .1. I decided to stop testing as it's costly and it doesn't seem to be working for me. I lost 2# in September and have gained back 1.4# in October so far...so a net loss of about 1/2# since Sept. 1st.

I have "no clue" what the deal is. It seems when I added in more fat (raising from 78 to 80's with lower calories is when I started having issues. So, I"m upping my calories (and then promptly gained 1# overnight), but I'm not giving up. I did get into ketosis (1.0) when I did 4 days of fat fast, but I can't stay eating that way for more than 3-4 days.

The other thing is that my glucose levels are going up up up. Used to be 90's and now are 100's and have been 125. But...I also tested with the same drop of blood on 2 different Nova Max meters and got these levels 94/111 and 112/125. So, I gave up on doing that again! ha ha that was pretty funny!

So...got any ideas???

[mom2zeke]

Hi everyone! I'm back from vacation and I'm going to try and catch up with this thread today!

I think I did pretty well with my eating on the trip. DH and I made our own breakfast everyday and I made sure that it was a nice, fatty one! I didn't measure or weigh, just eyeballed. And while I tried not to eat too much protein, I'm sure I ate more in general than usual.

This morning I got on the scale and I was 149. I measured my ketones and they were .5.

We had a fantastic vacation and it's a bit hard to be back to reality today. Tomorrow will be even harder when I go back to work.

How is everyone else doing?

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hi everyone! I'm back from vacation and I'm going to try and catch up with this thread today!

I think I did pretty well with my eating on the trip. DH and I made our own breakfast everyday and I made sure that it was a nice, fatty one! I didn't measure or weigh, just eyeballed. And while I tried not to eat too much protein, I'm sure I ate more in general than usual.

This morning I got on the scale and I was 149. I measured my ketones and they were .5.

We had a fantastic vacation and it's a bit hard to be back to reality today. Tomorrow will be even harder when I go back to work.

How is everyone else doing?

I KNEW you could do it!!! Good Job!

[shelley]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hi everyone! I'm back from vacation and I'm going to try and catch up with this thread today!

I think I did pretty well with my eating on the trip. DH and I made our own breakfast everyday and I made sure that it was a nice, fatty one! I didn't measure or weigh, just eyeballed. And while I tried not to eat too much protein, I'm sure I ate more in general than usual.

This morning I got on the scale and I was 149. I measured my ketones and they were .5.

We had a fantastic vacation and it's a bit hard to be back to reality today. Tomorrow will be even harder when I go back to work.

How is everyone else doing?

Yay....Kristn is back adn she had a marvelous, well-deserved vacation!!!! And amazing that she's still in ketosis and still under 150#. Good going Kristn!!!! Glad you have today off and don't have to return to work until tomorrow. But best of all is that you had a magical time!!!!! Welcome home to us!

[JMCM1]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hi everyone! I'm back from vacation and I'm going to try and catch up with this thread today!

I think I did pretty well with my eating on the trip. DH and I made our own breakfast everyday and I made sure that it was a nice, fatty one! I didn't measure or weigh, just eyeballed. And while I tried not to eat too much protein, I'm sure I ate more in general than usual.

This morning I got on the scale and I was 149. I measured my ketones and they were .5.

We had a fantastic vacation and it's a bit hard to be back to reality today. Tomorrow will be even harder when I go back to work.

How is everyone else doing?

back!!
And congratulations!

[piratejenny]

Originally Posted by shelley

The only thing I can figure is that I'm one of those that the Swedish doc/author talks about who doesn't get into ketosis no matter what for up to 6 months!

Did they say what causes it?
------------------------------------
I think some of us have livers that are very "good" about making glucose (gluconeogenesis). It's easier for them to make it from protein, but they can convert fat to glucose, too. Do Fat & Protein Turn Into Glucose? | LIVESTRONG.COM I've been low-carbing for almost 2 years and am fighting & fighting to maintain a 15-20lb weight loss...and I still get high fasting blood glucose, so I'm pretty sure my liver is still doing this. Sometimes it seems that the more I lower my carbs (esp at night), the worse my FBG gets.

I've read that about 5 hours after the last time you eat, your liver will dump glucose...up to 45-65g of it!

The plan that I've been (more or less) following lately is called the "Diabetes Miracle" (she also has an earlier version called the "Metabolism Miracle). You eat every 5 hours (or less) in order to prevent liver dump. Step 1 is very low-carb. In Step 2, you eat 11-20g net carb every 5 hours; she calls this a "carb dam".

So, eating as little as 11g carb could prevent as much as 65g sugar from getting into your bloodstream!

Does the NK plan have any emphasis on when carbs should be eaten, or how they should be divided up throughout the day? Or is mainly about the percentages?

PS: One of the ways in which metformin works is to suppress liver dump/gluconeogenesis.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by piratejenny

Did they say what causes it?
------------------------------------
I think some of us have livers that are very "good" about making glucose (gluconeogenesis). It's easier for them to make it from protein, but they can convert fat to glucose, too. Do Fat & Protein Turn Into Glucose? | LIVESTRONG.COM I've been low-carbing for almost 2 years and am fighting & fighting to maintain a 15-20lb weight loss...and I still get high fasting blood glucose, so I'm pretty sure my liver is still doing this. Sometimes it seems that the more I lower my carbs (esp at night), the worse my FBG gets.

I've read that about 5 hours after the last time you eat, your liver will dump glucose...up to 45-65g of it!

The plan that I've been (more or less) following lately is called the "Diabetes Miracle" (she also has an earlier version called the "Metabolism Miracle). You eat every 5 hours (or less) in order to prevent liver dump. Step 1 is very low-carb. In Step 2, you eat 11-20g net carb every 5 hours; she calls this a "carb dam".

So, eating as little as 11g carb could prevent as much as 65g sugar from getting into your bloodstream!

Does the NK plan have any emphasis on when carbs should be eaten, or how they should be divided up throughout the day? Or is mainly about the percentages?

PS: One of the ways in which metformin works is to suppress liver dump/gluconeogenesis.

Interesting....I don't even consume 20 TOTAL carbs (forget net, that is single digits) in a day. Very interesting.....

[mom2zeke]

Thanks for the welcome back everyone! It's great to see everyone and all the new people!!

It's interesting to read people's experiences (and difficulties) of getting into NK. I started eating lower protein (I've been LC for so long that my carb level wasn't much of a change) when I ordered my free meter and was in NK by the time I started testing. I was probably 2-3 weeks in before I started testing. From reading other people's stories it sounds like it was relatively easy for me to get into NK. Not sure why as I was stalled on regular LC for so many years.

Shelley--I'm sorry that it's been such a struggle for you!

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by piratejenny

Does the NK plan have any emphasis on when carbs should be eaten, or how they should be divided up throughout the day? Or is mainly about the percentages?

Hi Jenny,
The Phinney/Volek plan emphasizes finding the right gram level of protein and carbs to get into NK and then filling in with fat until you're satisfied (see links in my siggy line for more information). In Dr. Phinney's latest interview with Jimmy Moore he said that there weren't any good studies about when protein should be eaten, but that he would speculate that dividing it throughout the day is probably best. I tend to split my protein in the morning and evening eating a fatty "lunch" without much protein to keep me going.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hi everyone! I'm back from vacation and I'm going to try and catch up with this thread today!

I think I did pretty well with my eating on the trip. DH and I made our own breakfast everyday and I made sure that it was a nice, fatty one! I didn't measure or weigh, just eyeballed. And while I tried not to eat too much protein, I'm sure I ate more in general than usual.

This morning I got on the scale and I was 149. I measured my ketones and they were .5.

We had a fantastic vacation and it's a bit hard to be back to reality today. Tomorrow will be even harder when I go back to work.

How is everyone else doing?

Welcome back Kristn!

I hope you are walking around with a smug smile on your face from doing so well while on vacation!! Great job!

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hi Jenny,
The Phinney/Volek plan emphasizes finding the right gram level of protein and carbs to get into NK and then filling in with fat until you're satisfied (see links in my siggy line for more information). In Dr. Phinney's latest interview with Jimmy Moore he said that there weren't any good studies about when protein should be eaten, but that he would speculate that dividing it throughout the day is probably best. I tend to split my protein in the morning and evening eating a fatty "lunch" without much protein to keep me going.

Google 'atlcx-24-layman-protein'.

Dr. Layman specializes in protein and there's a lot of what he says that has to be viewed through the lens of a guy that lives and breathes protein molecules but his considered opinion is that it does matter and you should have at least two 45g+ protein meals a day with breakfast being essential.

[piratejenny]

Ok, sounds like "the missing piece" for some people could be to eat that small amount of carbs every 5 hours! (Or enough protein that some of it is converted to glucose, in order to prevent liver dump?)

I know, I know--11-20g net carbs doesn't sound "small" for serious low-carbers!

I didn't want my other post to get monstrously long, but I did have some success with lower morning BGs when I tried using the "carb dams" before bed...that sometimes included an early-morning snack, if I woke up. But I was sort of skipping ahead to Step 2, just to experiment; now I'm on Step 1, which is much lower carb, and is supposed to last 8 weeks.

Cortisol is also engaged when you fast for 5 hours or longer; some people seem to handle it well, for others it causes insomnia, belly fat, etc. I used to scoff at the "eat 5-6 small meals a day" plans...I prefer to eat only twice a day...but the small meals work better for me in many ways.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Google 'atlcx-24-layman-protein'.

Dr. Layman specializes in protein and there's a lot of what he says that has to be viewed through the lens of a guy that lives and breathes protein molecules but his considered opinion is that it does matter and you should have at least two 45g+ protein meals a day with breakfast being essential.

I think this is all so individual it's hard to know how much protein an individual needs. And IMHO to make a blanket statement that covers menopausal women and young male athletes alike is kind of silly.

That's actually what I love about using the meter, you can raise and lower your protein to get the individual level that maximizes your protein but keeps you in ketosis. And Phinney/Volek seem to think that you don't need as much protein for muscle repair, etc. when you're in ketosis.

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I think this is all so individual it's hard to know how much protein an individual needs. And IMHO to make a blanket statement that covers menopausal women and young male athletes alike is kind of silly.

That's actually what I love about using the meter, you can raise and lower your protein to get the individual level that maximizes your protein but keeps you in ketosis. And Phinney/Volek seem to think that you don't need as much protein for muscle repair, etc. when you're in ketosis.

So, what does that mean Kristn, higher protein promotes higher or lower level of ketones? I haven't read both their books

[Buffy45]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I think this is all so individual it's hard to know how much protein an individual needs. And IMHO to make a blanket statement that covers menopausal women and young male athletes alike is kind of silly.

That's actually what I love about using the meter, you can raise and lower your protein to get the individual level that maximizes your protein but keeps you in ketosis. And Phinney/Volek seem to think that you don't need as much protein for muscle repair, etc. when you're in ketosis.

So, what does that mean Kristn, higher protein promotes higher or lower level of ketones? I haven't read both their books

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

So, what does that mean Kristn, higher protein promotes higher or lower level of ketones? I haven't read both their books

Higher protein promotes lower ketones through gluconeogenesis.

Once your body is used to running on glucose it will do anything to make glucose (gluconeogenesis) if it has the right ingredients (carbs or protein). You have to force your body to use a different energy pathway (fat through ketosis) by reducing carbs and protein.

Eating higher fat along with lower carbs and protein may also help to prime this energy pathway.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I think this is all so individual it's hard to know how much protein an individual needs. And IMHO to make a blanket statement that covers menopausal women and young male athletes alike is kind of silly.

That's actually what I love about using the meter, you can raise and lower your protein to get the individual level that maximizes your protein but keeps you in ketosis. And Phinney/Volek seem to think that you don't need as much protein for muscle repair, etc. when you're in ketosis.

The good Dr. Protein doesn't feel that protein levels are negotiable because he was emphatic lol - [edit: When Jimmy asked he did say that there was no practical upper limit on protein but felt that up to 3g/kg was safe!]

As I said, he lives and breathes protein so he has a heavy bias towards it. But it is a very interesting interview.

Like everything I read and listen to, I critically appraise what's being said and make informed decisions about what to do going forward. As I'm sure we all do.

[One maur time]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hi everyone! I'm back from vacation and I'm going to try and catch up with this thread today!

I think I did pretty well with my eating on the trip. DH and I made our own breakfast everyday and I made sure that it was a nice, fatty one! I didn't measure or weigh, just eyeballed. And while I tried not to eat too much protein, I'm sure I ate more in general than usual.

This morning I got on the scale and I was 149. I measured my ketones and they were .5.

We had a fantastic vacation and it's a bit hard to be back to reality today. Tomorrow will be even harder when I go back to work.

How is everyone else doing?

Dear Kristn:
Great new photo! Glad to hear that you were successful at enjoying yourselfand not going too far out of bounds!
Maureen

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by One maur time

Dear Kristn:
Great new photo! Glad to hear that you were successful at enjoying yourselfand not going too far out of bounds!
Maureen

Thanks Maureen!

[mom2zeke]

Good morning everyone! I'm on my way back to work this morning and feeling a bit jet lagged. Ketones are down this am (.4) and weight is up 1.4 lb. TOM arrived yesterday afternoon so I expect that I'll be bouncing around for a while. I want to get back into pretty strong ketosis so I will be tracking that number pretty closely for a while.

How is everyone else this morning??

[Buffy45]

Kristn, I know TOM will add to your being so tired from the jet lag and all but what perfect timing

My BS was up a little and my ketones down but I have no idea of why. And, my calories were a little higher than I like yesterday, protein was a little lower than it should have been. But, I am in this for the long term so not worried about that.

[dianajlane]

And why I hate the EMB (Evil Metal Box, aka the bathroom scale).

So this morning, I get on the scale and I weigh the same as yesterday.
That was disappointing in itself, as I had been up slightly yesterday, so I had been hoping to have at least returned to Monday's weight.
After weighing myself, I wandered about my apartment for a while, fed some ducks, loaded the dishwasher, etc. Then I realized I was still wearing my watch. So I decided to reweigh myself (like my watch totally weighs 4 oz - Not!) and, you know, give the scale a second chance. And what does the damn thing do? I'm sure you can guess the punchline: up 0.7.

So what do I weigh this morning? Who knows.
I'm afraid to go for the tie-breaker.
I'll probably be up another pound!

So either the scale is an evil beast or I gain weight from breathing (which I've always suspected).

At least my blood ketones were also up: 1.5

Have a great day everyone.
cross-posted from my journal

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by Buffy45

Kristn, I know TOM will add to your being so tired from the jet lag and all but what perfect timing

You're right, it was perfect timing for TOM, but I'm definitely dragging right now.

My BS was up a little and my ketones down but I have no idea of why. And, my calories were a little higher than I like yesterday, protein was a little lower than it should have been. But, I am in this for the long term so not worried about that.

I think following the trend is more important than day-to-day.

Originally Posted by dianajlane

And why I hate the EMB (Evil Metal Box, aka the bathroom scale).

So this morning, I get on the scale and I weigh the same as yesterday.
That was disappointing in itself, as I had been up slightly yesterday, so I had been hoping to have at least returned to Monday's weight.
After weighing myself, I wandered about my apartment for a while, fed some ducks, loaded the dishwasher, etc. Then I realized I was still wearing my watch. So I decided to reweigh myself (like my watch totally weighs 4 oz - Not!) and, you know, give the scale a second chance. And what does the damn thing do? I'm sure you can guess the punchline: up 0.7.

So what do I weigh this morning? Who knows.
I'm afraid to go for the tie-breaker.
I'll probably be up another pound!

So either the scale is an evil beast or I gain weight from breathing (which I've always suspected).

At least my blood ketones were also up: 1.5

Have a great day everyone.
cross-posted from my journal

I hate the scale myself, but have come to terms with it. I actually stopped weighing myself over the past few years and just went by how my clothes fit. It was very freeing in a way, but didn't get me any closer to goal. I got back on the scale by promising that I would only follow trends and not worry about any one day up.

I do think that some of these digital scales can give widely fluctuating readings. You might want to take 3 readings and record the average.

Good job on the ketones. I really want to get mine up again. I think I've been eating too much protein at one sitting, so I'm going to try to cut back slightly and eat more fat instead.

It was tough walking into work this morning, but the day just flew by. My boss is out of town at a training so I've been working my way through emails and piles of paper. My large project at work didn't explode while I was gone which is a huge relief.

[dianajlane]

I have been using the following scale recently:

Weight Watchers By Conair Ww24w Digital Painted Glass Scale, Painted Glass

I decided to check out the Amazon reviews today because of the weird thing the scale did this morning, where my weight jumped up 0.7 lbs after I removed my watch.

I believe I have found an explanation:

The scale "remembers" your previous weight until your weight has changed by 2 or more pounds.

So now I have the explanation: I weighed myself this morning and got yesterday's weight. Then DH weighed himself, and there was more than 2 pounds difference from my weight yesterday, so he got a true reading. Then I weighed myself again (minus the watch), and because my weight is more than two pounds different from his, I got what I guess is my true weight for this morning (so the higher reading was actually true)

But the scale is pretty much worthless for daily tracking of weight loss

Time to get another scale...
It's too bad because I like the look of it and the easy cleanability.
But a scale has to be accurate!

On second thought, I guess I could trick it by weighing myself while holding something that weighs more than two pounds;
then I could really weigh myself and get my true weight. But I'm annoyed that the scale instructions said nothing about this "feature".
I should probably send in a complaint to the manufacturer.

I am pleased to have found an explanation though.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by dianajlane

I have been using the following scale recently:

Weight Watchers By Conair Ww24w Digital Painted Glass Scale, Painted Glass

I decided to check out the Amazon reviews today because of the weird thing the scale did this morning, where my weight jumped up 0.7 lbs after I removed my watch.

I believe I have found an explanation:


So now I have the explanation: I weighed myself this morning and got yesterday's weight. Then DH weighed himself, and there was more than 2 pounds difference from my weight yesterday, so he got a true reading. Then I weighed myself again (minus the watch), and because my weight is more than two pounds different from his, I got what I guess is my true weight for this morning (so the higher reading was actually true)

But the scale is pretty much worthless for daily tracking of weight loss

Time to get another scale...
It's too bad because I like the look of it and the easy cleanability.
But a scale has to be accurate!

That's crazy! You definitely need a new scale.

[piratejenny]

I just get on the scale with a 3- or 5lb weight, or my cat (lol), step off, put it down, then step back on again.

I always thought it was a "quirk" of my scale, but I'm actually happy to hear that it's normal, cuz I felt a little not-right-in-the-head getting on & off my scale so often!

So...maybe you could just keep a dumbbell or something near the scale, instead of buying a new one?

[dianajlane]

Yeah Jenny,

It took me a few minutes to think of that
And I will definitely start doing that tomorrow -
after all, I can't be asking DH to jump on every day between weighings.

Thanks

[SouthernGirl61]

Welcome back Kristn. Your pic is beautiful! And you held your numbers! I am getting caught up after a few days. You are dead on with that on "statement covering p-m women and young men"....since 50, the stall and lower metabolism hit me between the eyes. I was quite smug about eating liberally -- until 49 and 364 days.....!
Yea, no TOM on vacation!

PJ, you have a good post, interesting. I have a friend with Fatty Liver and she is miserable trying to lose weight. Told her about this NK, and she is slowly moving this way, and losing weight now. VLC messed her up first; her doc put her on 80% grains/oatmeal junk.
I eat my carbs throughout the day, protein twice a day I think, if I get hungry I eat pure fat, that shuts it down ASAP. I have never felt so in control as with this NK. Hunger would get me, even eating way to much protein.

Red - Dr Protein sounds like an interesting, intense person. Hummmm.

Hi Maureen!

Hi Diana and PJ! Kill the scale! I have one from BBB, it's pretty good, digital, It's Health-O-Meter. One day I ran up to private surgery assessment room (pre-op) locked the door; got main clothes off, and weighed first thing at work, within 1 hour of rising at home. They were within .75 of each other. Risky adventure, but DH has been on LC and was thinking his doc office was better than home...much to his dismay. What we do for love.

[One maur time]

Originally Posted by SouthernGirl61

Welcome back Kristn. Your pic is beautiful! And you held your numbers! I am getting caught up after a few days. You are dead on with that on "statement covering p-m women and young men"....since 50, the stall and lower metabolism hit me between the eyes. I was quite smug about eating liberally -- until 49 and 364 days.....!
Yea, no TOM on vacation!

PJ, you have a good post, interesting. I have a friend with Fatty Liver and she is miserable trying to lose weight. Told her about this NK, and she is slowly moving this way, and losing weight now. VLC messed her up first; her doc put her on 80% grains/oatmeal junk.
I eat my carbs throughout the day, protein twice a day I think, if I get hungry I eat pure fat, that shuts it down ASAP. I have never felt so in control as with this NK. Hunger would get me, even eating way to much protein.

Red - Dr Protein sounds like an interesting, intense person. Hummmm.

Hi Maureen!

Hi Diana and PJ! Kill the scale! I have one from BBB, it's pretty good, digital, It's Health-O-Meter. One day I ran up to private surgery assessment room (pre-op) locked the door; got main clothes off, and weighed first thing at work, within 1 hour of rising at home. They were within .75 of each other. Risky adventure, but DH has been on LC and was thinking his doc office was better than home...much to his dismay. What we o for love.

Dear Southern Girl:
That is a funny story about the scale investigation. My luck I would've gotten caught and had some explaining to do. I actually try to only weigh myself on Sunday mornings- I also take some measurements to offset the fickle/obessive nature of the scale.

I have been struggling to get any real traction with the Ketones. I can get to .5 and if I'm super strict a .7- I don't know if that qualifies as ketosis. I have been following this WOE since early September and have faithfully tested ketones and glucose. I definitely see a correlation with lower Ketones and a heavy protein ladden meal the evening prior ( I test in a fasting state first thing in the AM).

I struggle with fat later in the day- In the mornings I have my own version of a fat bomb ( 2 Tbs of kerrygold butter with coconut cream in Chai Tea) preceded by 2 Tbs of Coconut oil diluted in warm water. Then maybe a strip or two of bacon maybe 1/2 avocado. As you might imagine I don't typically eat for 8-10 hours. But when I do I am starving.

I am thinking of incorporating Pirate Jenny's suggestion of spreading the carbs more evenly during the day to see if I have either cortisol stress from the lengthy fast or glucose dumping when I don't have an even stream of carbs and a large meal heavy on protein.

I would love any suggestions of fat consumption beyond the fat bombs. I find it difficult to get the fat later in the day other then consuming protein or butter on vegetables.

Maureen