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Old 09-26-2012, 01:27 AM   #1
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Anyone doing NK within a paleo framework?

I've been eating low carb paleo for several months now, and I feel amazing. Like, AMAZING. Skin is so incredibly clear, great energy, great sleep, no digestive issues, and more. Unfortunately the weight is slow to come off, and I've been at the same weight for 2+ months.

I'm interested in trying nutritional ketosis, but I'm wondering if anyone is making it work without dairy (and the fat it brings with it)? I eat occasional bacon, but the only bacon I've found to be completely sugar-free, nitrite-free, and from naturally raised pigs is too cost prohibitive to eat daily. I do cook most things in butter I've clarified myself, removing all the milk solids as well, but my fat % usually doesn't come in much higher than 55ish percent.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:47 AM   #2
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NK is a perfect fit for paleo LC I think.

The dairy is just a convenient and tasty fat for coffee, floats and shakes.

Any oil that isn't polyunsaturated will work with NK I think. You can have coconut oil on paleo?

Even without CO, real butter has a lot of the MCT that gives CO a lot of its umpf. And, of course, rendered animal fat is all good.
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:15 PM   #3
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Thank you for the feedback!
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Old 09-26-2012, 04:34 PM   #4
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I'm doing NK with a primal framework but not a paleo one. I find it easy to come up with high fat/moderate-to-low protein foods to eat if I allow myself to use organic sour cream, butter, and heavy cream. I imagine that one could do NK as a paleo diet, but you'd have to make judicious use of coconut oil, full fat coconut milk, olive oil, olives, avocadoes, bacon, and nuts, to get to high fat percentages.

I like avoiding processed foods and making what I eat from scratch, so either paleo or primal works well for that. If I weren't so focused on getting a high fat percentage, I'd consider dropping dairy and going paleo, but that's not likely to happen for me until I get close to my goal or find some problem (such as food intolerance) tied to dairy.
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Old 09-29-2012, 12:51 AM   #5
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Thanks for your feedback, sven. Unfortunately for me, I've found I do become symptomatic if I include dairy (other than clarified butter) in my diet. I hadn't considered coconut milk, which I love, as a food to help up the fat percentage.

I've been playing around in ****** trying to come up with a menu to get over 80% fat, and I've been having an exceptionally hard time. Short of including way more butter than I could eat (I LOVE butter, but even I can't bring myself to finish off what's left in the pan or on the plate with a spoon.)

I'm going to keep playing with those menus but add coconut milk in, and I bet I'm going to find I can make it to 80% much more easily!
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Old 09-29-2012, 05:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilly29 View Post
I've been playing around in ****** trying to come up with a menu to get over 80% fat, and I've been having an exceptionally hard time.
Even with no restrictions other than truly LC fats (which excludes PUFAs) it is very, very hard to get to 80%+ fat macro.

Especially if there are other constraints like some control of calories and minimal protein gram intake.

Let me restate that. If you calories are of absolutely no concern then it is easy to get 80+%. So, it isn't hard to do at 3,000 calories. On the other hand, when your goal is 2000 or less it becomes a lot harder and food choices narrow dramatically.

If you add in another constraint of minimum protein grams it becomes even harder at lower calorie goals. And keeping your protein right - not too high or too low - is very important so it should always be a constraint.

I just wanted to let you know it isn't just you that finds it a challenge, it is a challenging goal
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Old 09-29-2012, 04:54 PM   #7
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One fat that might be considered paleo is macadamia nut oil. It has a high smoke point, so it's good for sautéing or frying. It is very high in monounsaturated fat and very low in low polyunsaturated fat (omega-6). It even works for vegans who aren't afraid of fat.

I use it on salads, in place of olive oil (which is pretty good, too, but higher in omega-6 than mac oil). I also put some on my salmon today, to up my fat intake for NK. Sometimes, if I'm still hungry after a small, lower protein dinner, I just swallow a couple of teaspoons and it instantly kills my stomach rumbling. It has a slightly buttery taste, so it's not bad to take straight.

Trading monounsaturated fat for saturated fat may lower your LDL cholesterol, if you're trying to pass an employment or insurance physical with archaic blood lipid targets.

Some of the healthy grocers carry it now, and it's also available from Netrition.

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Old 09-29-2012, 05:31 PM   #8
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Why is 80% your goal? Many people can be in nutritional ketosis at 65% or so. I personally do great at 70% and that's pretty doable, especially if you use coconut oil here and there (I drink a bit in coffee most mornings). The focus for getting into NK is getting carbs and protein in the right range first, I think. If you're *very* insulin resistant, you may need to have higher %, but you could start at 65-70% and go from there. That might be easier for you with a Paleo framework.
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:07 AM   #9
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I pretty much am following Paleo while doing NK. I do use butter on vegetables. Other than that, no HWC, cream cheeese, etc.

I use coconut oil for frying/sauteing. I will also have a TB of coconut oil right off the spoon as well. I use a good amount of cocnut milk creamer in my coffee to keep the fat up as well. I also use mayo. I would like to make some homemade, but have chickened out so far.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:21 PM   #10
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I don't feel like I eat much in the way of dairy (even thought I love it) and although I don't eat as high fat as some - I think it can be done and done fairly easily.

My current main sources of fat are from meats (I love ground pork), fatty salmon (always buy wild), coconut oil, coconut cream, coconut butter, avocado, homemade dressing (olive oil), olives.....and the list goes on. I don't eat as high fat as some and in fact I don't generally aim to eat high fat per say but rather shoot to limit carbs to less than 20 net grams and 55g of protein as a limit. The fat usually falls in around 90 to 110g and that is around 75% fat. It is quite enjoyable and although it took some time to develop a menu plan, I am very happy with it.
I think N.K. is totally doable without dairy.
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"The energy content of food (calories) matters, but it is less important than the metabolic effect of food on our body." Dr. P. Attia

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Old 01-06-2013, 04:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
My current main sources of fat are from meats (I love ground pork), fatty salmon (always buy wild), coconut oil, coconut cream, coconut butter, avocado, homemade dressing (olive oil), olives.....and the list goes on. I don't eat as high fat as some and in fact I don't generally aim to eat high fat per say but rather shoot to limit carbs to less than 20 net grams and 55g of protein as a limit. The fat usually falls in around 90 to 110g and that is around 75% fat. It is quite enjoyable and although it took some time to develop a menu plan, I am very happy with it.
I think N.K. is totally doable without dairy.
I do the same. Aim for less than 20 net carbs and aim for around 100g of protein. I eat fatty cuts of meat and add all the high fat condiments you mention. I haven't been tracking and honestly don't have any idea what my fat grams (and therefore overall calories) are right now.

I agree, NK without dairy is very doable.
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:57 PM   #12
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BigRunner: I've done many, many experiments on the best homemade mayonnaise. Hands down, the best oil to use is walnut oil..... olive oil is just too strong, even extra virgin light.

Also, hollandaise sauce is paleo and super yummy! You can make a big batch, then warm it up and pour it over your eggs, veggies, or fish.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unna View Post
BigRunner: I've done many, many experiments on the best homemade mayonnaise. Hands down, the best oil to use is walnut oil..... olive oil is just too strong, even extra virgin light.

Also, hollandaise sauce is paleo and super yummy! You can make a big batch, then warm it up and pour it over your eggs, veggies, or fish.
Thanks for the advice about the walnut oil mayo, Unna. Like BigRunner, I've been putting off making my own mayo (using sour cream instead), but I've got a supply of walnut oil in the cupboard.

I'm planning to try a month of dairy-free NK in the spring (once the weather isn't so miserably cold in Minnesota), to see how giving up dairy affects my losses and health, so I've been reading this thread with interest.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unna View Post
BigRunner: I've done many, many experiments on the best homemade mayonnaise. Hands down, the best oil to use is walnut oil..... olive oil is just too strong, even extra virgin light.

Also, hollandaise sauce is paleo and super yummy! You can make a big batch, then warm it up and pour it over your eggs, veggies, or fish.
Hi Unna....have you tried macadamia nut oil? I just got out my recipe for macadamia nut oil mayonnaise and was going to make it tonight. But think I'll wait to see what you say if you have tried it. Of course, it's all relative to each of our taste buds. I didn't mind it with the extra light virgin olive oil, but didn't like it with the lemon being too strong or the flavored mustards that some use. I have always loved my Best Foods/Hellman's, but that's with soybean oil so don't use that any more. Anyone do the macadamia one?
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:39 PM   #15
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I have dairy allergies too,casien specifically.
I use coconut milk ,not the beverage kind which is stripped of its fat but canned ones which is the coconut flesh milk.
I don't usually have symptoms with half and half and sour cream but I don't use them often.
I also make homemade mayo,coconut butter,macadamia butter and coconut cream form scratch.By eating fatty meats,you can up your fat easily.
in the beginning I was confused too bcoz most recipes I looked at always contained HWC.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:40 PM   #16
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sorry for the typos,LO in hand.
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:59 AM   #17
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I would think macadamia nut oil would be similar to walnut oil.... but, in my experience olive oil makes terrible mayonnaise.

However, after you finish the mayonnaise with another more neutral oil, you could add a dash of olive oil in it if you want a light olive oil flavor.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:05 AM   #18
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The big issues with the paleo diet for someone doing NK, is using meat as a protein source and a lot of low fat carbs (veggies and fruits). It doesn't really lend itself well to NK, and I think it works best for people who can tolerate moderate carbs. For most people paleo would be an excellent diet, especially considering there are no processed foods allowed.

I'm technically not a vegetarian, however, I have cut my meat down to almost nothing because most of our meats are so lean that they don't do me much good as a protein source. Instead I use the protein that comes from dairy (cheese) and tofu. And eggs. I eat almost no fruit, and veggies I have drastically cut those as well. In doing this I have been able to meet my macro goals for NK. Some veggies are almost freebies with respect to carbs: things like lettuce, celery and mushroom. You'll have to do some research on which ones, I don't know the specific details of the paleo diet to know if it is possible, you might have to tweak it alot and call it something else, other than Paleo.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:17 AM   #19
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I eat meat, eggs, and vegetables and add coconut products (canned milk, oil) to keep my fats up.

Basically:
No wheat
No sugar,
No dairy (or very, very little).

Exactly Paleo.
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:49 AM   #20
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paleo NK ideas

I'm on a controlled quantity NK plan. We eat a "paleo-informed" low carb lifestyle in general in the house, and I do most of the cooking. I still do dairy, but my husband doesn't do dairy or eggs. Anyway, here are my NK suggestions for the paleo-leaning NK crowd:

Breakfast ideas:
- nothing
- Fry 2 eggs in coconut oil. Break the yolk while cooking. Spice however you like. Slice into strips and put in a bowl. Eat strips with hands while driving :-)
- coffee with coconut oil or ghee in blender

Lunch ideas:
- pork rinds with guacamole (pork rinds in soybean oil not exactly paleo though)
- pork or beef liver pate
- salted bone broth
- 2-3 c lettuce, oil and vinegar, meat if you can spare the protein

Dinner ideas:
- same as lunch

Snack ideas:
- almond butter fat bombs (my recipe is 1/2 c crunchy almond butter, 1/4 c coconut oil, 1/4 c dark cocoa powder, 4 packets stevia, 1/2 t vanilla; divide into 12 paper muffin tin liners; freeze)
- breakfast sausage with homemade mayo
- herbal tea
- broth

Lately, I've been adding sour cream to a lot of things to increase fat. I think you could easily substitute avocado or guacamole.

Good luck!
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:53 AM   #21
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Homemade mayo to die for... Note: I use earplugs while food processor is going.

Lemon herb mayonnaise

★★★★★
Prep Time: 10 mins | Cook Time: 0 hr 0 min | Makes: 16 | Difficulty: Easy
Ingredients:

2 egg yolks
2 cloves garlic
1 tsp dried dill
1 tsp dried basil
1/2 tsp salt
2 tbsp lemon juice
1/2 tsp lemon extract
1/4 cup coconut oil
3/4 cup sunflower or other neutral oil
Directions:

Combine everything except sunflower oil in food processor and puree. With the machine running, add the sunflower oil in a thin, steady stream. I use a picnic condiment bottle. After you've added 1/2 of the oil, the mixture will thicken. You may note a change in the sound of the motor. You can begin adding the oil a bit faster at this point.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:16 AM   #22
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In my efforts to keep my NK macros in line, I was eating a vast amount of cheese. Last week, I decided maybe it was too much. So this week I'm trying a primal form of NK. In other words, I still use heavy cream in my coffee, but no cheese. (No cheese! I'm a Wisconsin cheesehead! This experiment may be shortlived, or else they'll never let me return to WI)

Instead, I've been eating:
coconut cream, coconut oil, coconut milk (the canned kind full of fat), coconut flakes, and a little coconut flour
some veggies (especially arugula and spinach)
salmon in all forms. Yum!
egg yolks
a little chicken. I'd eat fatty red meats, but I haven't yet found meat here in Sweden that tastes delicious to me, so I stick to salmon and chicken and eggs.
vast quantities of avocado
a little olive oil on my arugula
and a little butter (I'm too lazy to clarify it)
macademias and the occasional hazelnut


I clearly could not do this without coconut in all its glorious forms. I love coconut based curries, and those lovely curry pastes are very low carb.

If I could find the perfect substitute for heavy cream in my coffee, I'd drop the cream for a week or so. But the coconut milk/egg yolk mixture doesn't quite work for me.

Last edited by tiva; 01-17-2013 at 11:18 AM..
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:32 PM   #23
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Good fats

To eat a good amount of fat:

avocados
coconut oil
pastured butter
canned coconut milk
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