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Old 09-28-2012, 10:19 AM   #751
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Tons of great, informative posts of late! Good to see Rebecca back and good to know about that tonic water! I always wondered what the difference was between tonic and seltzer.

Yesterday was a major challenge - a stressful day at work followed by a business dinner at my boss's home catered by a classically trained (and very obese) French chef. The dinner table was a smorgasbord of glucose. The chef proudly told me that even the beef spare ribs were marinated in an apple cider sauce. And he was right - they were delicious.

I successfully avoided the truffled mashed potatoes and was the only person there who declined the triple layer cake for dessert (and by triple layered I mean three different cakes fused together in a state of sugary bliss). Even with that display of willpower my keytones were cut in half this morning - from 2.2 to 1.1. Still in ketosis though, so I'll take it.

I am just continuously amazed though at how sensitive I am to this stuff. My carb intake at the dinner included one glass of wine, four tiny shirmp appetizers served in a mini pie crust (about 1" in diameter) and the cider on the spare ribs. Goodness, if I had tried the cake I bet my Nova Max meter would have exploded this morning!
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:15 AM   #752
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Mike, you did great under the circumstances.....glad the nova meter didn't have to explode!

Rebecca it's so great to see your name...I tried to post on your blog but couldn't for some reason. But happy you are back on track and coming back to visit us and post what's going on with you.

I can't seem to get my ketone readings above 1.0 no matter what I do......eating "perfectly" has not gotten them to be more than .6, .7, .8 for the last 3 weeks.

When I do mostly fat (3 day fat fast this week to try to get the scale moving), the ketones are stable in that same range, but the glucose goes nuts...107-115!!!! This is very confusing to me. Why would fat and 1200 calories make my glucose levels go up so much. I have to eat 90% fat and 1200 calories to get the ketones above .6, and if I do that, the glucose goes from 90's to 115! Anyone got any ideas about why that happens. And how on earth can I get ketones above 1.0 if even doing 3 days of fat fast doesn't work?

Last edited by shelley; 09-28-2012 at 11:17 AM.. Reason: spelling correction
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:20 AM   #753
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I don't use the Nova for blood sugar at all. It's highly inaccurate, in my experience.
On a whim when I tested ketones Monday I also did blood sugar on both nova max ones 2 times at the same time (blood sample from one drop, test, put in new strip and test again, new blood drop - less than 2 minutes from the first one to the last) and all 4 readings were wildly different - 40-70pts different -and all 4 were at least 20pts higher than my other 2 meters(which were within 2pts of each other).
I don't know if the nova strips (2 different bottles) are just weird, or if the meters themselves are just calibrated wrong, but I don't trust them at all for blood sugar.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:31 AM   #754
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Originally Posted by shelley View Post
When I do mostly fat (3 day fat fast this week to try to get the scale moving), the ketones are stable in that same range, but the glucose goes nuts...107-115!!!! This is very confusing to me. Why would fat and 1200 calories make my glucose levels go up so much. I have to eat 90% fat and 1200 calories to get the ketones above .6, and if I do that, the glucose goes from 90's to 115! Anyone got any ideas about why that happens. And how on earth can I get ketones above 1.0 if even doing 3 days of fat fast doesn't work?
No ideas Shelley, but if you try something that works, let us know! I would have thought the fat fast would have done it...that is so low protein and carb.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:44 AM   #755
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Mike, you did great under the circumstances.....glad the nova meter didn't have to explode!

Rebecca it's so great to see your name...I tried to post on your blog but couldn't for some reason. But happy you are back on track and coming back to visit us and post what's going on with you.

I can't seem to get my ketone readings above 1.0 no matter what I do......eating "perfectly" has not gotten them to be more than .6, .7, .8 for the last 3 weeks.

When I do mostly fat (3 day fat fast this week to try to get the scale moving), the ketones are stable in that same range, but the glucose goes nuts...107-115!!!! This is very confusing to me. Why would fat and 1200 calories make my glucose levels go up so much. I have to eat 90% fat and 1200 calories to get the ketones above .6, and if I do that, the glucose goes from 90's to 115! Anyone got any ideas about why that happens. And how on earth can I get ketones above 1.0 if even doing 3 days of fat fast doesn't work?
I think that drjlocarb posted about having a similar reaction when eating a ketogenic diet, and her conclusion was that she needed to give the ketogenic approach some time, for her body to adjust to fatburning. (What the mechanism is behind this, I'm not sure). Drjlocarb, I hope that I didn't misrepresent your experience; if you are checking this thread, you might want to weigh in here.

Try not to give the ketone meter too much power. So long as your readings are .5 or above, Phinney and Volek would say that you are in ketosis. Are you experiencing other indicators of being in ketosis, like losing weight and having appetite suppression? Those are more important than what the meter says, since the meter is just a tool. If you really want higher readings, try emphasizing coconut oil as a source of fat.
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:56 AM   #756
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Originally Posted by svenskamae View Post

Try not to give the ketone meter too much power. So long as your readings are .5 or above, Phinney and Volek would say that you are in ketosis. Are you experiencing other indicators of being in ketosis, like losing weight and having appetite suppression? Those are more important than what the meter says, since the meter is just a tool. If you really want higher readings, try emphasizing coconut oil as a source of fat.




I prioritize control of hunger and cravings, energy, and weight loss. If those things are all optimal, then I'm happy. And weight loss = loss of inches primarily, since the scale loves to mess with me EVERY TIME I increase exercise, have a hormonal swing, whatever. But I'm shrinking in the important places so... to the scale.

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Old 09-28-2012, 02:19 PM   #757
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Thanks for the responses.....especially the one from Dottie about the Nova Max meter not being accurate for glucose readings. I just bought 3 boxes of 50 strips! Yikes. Maybe that is why the ebay seller had them for sale...not accurate with this meter???

My main oil is coconut oil...next is a bit of olive oil, macadamia nut oil, MCT oil and butter. I'm never below 79% fat and the 3 day fat fast is 91-93% fat for me. So, I think I"m having all the right oils. But still can't get my ketone numbers up.

Thanks svenskamae about the theory that it just takes some longer. I had heard 2 weeks to a month. I've been Atkins induction for basically years, and then lowered the protein/upped the fat for NK eating the start of September...so it's been about a month.

The scale is not budging unless I exercise and drop my calories to 1200 and then I'm lucky to lose 1/2# in a week or in 2 weeks. But at least I am not longer gaining. I have lost just under 2# for this month. I know...I'll take it...a loss is a loss!!!!

Measurements take place on Sunday mornings, so I'll know more then. My goal is to get back into my fall/winter corduroy jeans and my mens jeans from Penneys that I adore (and can't even pull up any more!) I've got 1.5 sizes to drop to get into them.

I'll be patient......it's just frustrating as you all know....and reading of all the high ketone numbers and weightlosses makes me crazy to wonder why *not* me??? ha ha But I"m truly delighted for those of you that are having such great success. My 3 day fat fast is up, so today I'm back to lots of fat, my 60 grams of protein (thereabouts...58-62) and usually under 15 total carbs.
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:31 PM   #758
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Shelly have you tested your b/g during the day and after meals?
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:18 PM   #759
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I just received the latest issue of Consumer Reports magazine. They tested blood glucose meters and the Nova Max Plus was ranked 18th out of 21 meters.

They received a Good for accuracy, Very Good for repeatability and convenience. In the short article that accompanied the rankings, CR noted that most of the tested meters were Very Good or Excellent for accuracy.

This makes me question how accurate they are for ketone or glucose testing. The article didn't address ketone testing, at all.

Last edited by MargD; 09-28-2012 at 04:19 PM.. Reason: clarity
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:07 PM   #760
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No boxes on the shelve to pluck just feathers.....

I do think it is an evolution and if you research and question enough, you will come to the conclusions that make the most sense to yourself. In the meantime, I support the suggestion that you read Phinney and Volek's book "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living".
Thanks for the welcome everyone. I look forward to keeping up with you guys.

Can't get to the store just yet for A CHICKEN. I'll have to call around to find free range ones. I guess I'll have to change my lazy ways. No Trader Joes or Whole Foods here, but a small food coop downtown might be my best bet. Had salt in my green tea, not too horrifying. I did make super easy delish yogurt out of 1/2 and 1/2 yesterday using a cooler, a heating pad and a blanket. Very little if any lactose, and very filling.
Ordering my book. Thanks for the recommendation.
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:22 PM   #761
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Just for fun:
Could cheese be the missing piece in the French Paradox puzzle? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22981595
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:03 PM   #762
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Shelly have you tested your b/g during the day and after meals?
Nope, I haven't. One time I tested before lunch, and it was about the same as in the morning.....but this last week of well over 100 has me not very happy.
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:05 PM   #763
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I just received the latest issue of Consumer Reports magazine. They tested blood glucose meters and the Nova Max Plus was ranked 18th out of 21 meters.

They received a Good for accuracy, Very Good for repeatability and convenience. In the short article that accompanied the rankings, CR noted that most of the tested meters were Very Good or Excellent for accuracy.

This makes me question how accurate they are for ketone or glucose testing. The article didn't address ketone testing, at all.
Wow...that's scary. This matches what Dottie has been saying about the Nova Max Plus for the glucose readings. I understand they are good for ketones though.

What did Consumer Reports say was the best meter for glucose??? You sort of left me hanging and wondering. :-)

Thanks for the info.
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:07 PM   #764
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Shelly have you tested your b/g during the day and after meals?
Hi Drjlocarb again...I just realized that you are the one someone had mentioned earlier knew all about this. So, tell me about testing b/g during the day and after meals. My levels have ranged from 96 to 107 for the last few years, but this week hitting 111, 107, and 115 really spooked me, especially when I was doing a fat fast and didn't even have much in the way of protein/carbs as they would both share about 7% of the calories....i.e., not much! (2-3% for protein and 2-3% for carbs) Thanks for any info you can share. I'm the one that has not gotten my ketones up either, and I think I'm doing everything "right".
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:22 PM   #765
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Wow...that's scary. This matches what Dottie has been saying about the Nova Max Plus for the glucose readings. I understand they are good for ketones though.

What did Consumer Reports say was the best meter for glucose??? You sort of left me hanging and wondering. :-)

Thanks for the info.
Sorry to leave you hanging!

1. Accu-Chek Aviva
2. Freestyle Freedom Lite
3. Accu-Chek Compact Plus
4. FreeStyle Lite
5. Bayer Breeze 2
6. Up & Up (Target)
7. ReliOn Micro (Walmart)
8. OneTouch UltraSmart
9. TrueResult

These are, in order, the models CR recommends. They all scored Excellent for accuracy.

If anyone wants to check out the issue, it's November, 2012, but this article and the ratings don't even take up a full page, so maybe you can look at it at the library if you're interested in reading the entire article.
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:35 PM   #766
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Just for fun:
Could cheese be the missing piece in the French Paradox puzzle? Could cheese be the missing piece in the Fren... [Med Hypotheses. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI
Oh that is funny. I'd better run out and buy more brie.

Here's another theory to test - perhaps speaking in a french accent causes subtle shifts in the vocal chords which vibrate the blood vessels and shake loose all of that terrible saturated fat they eat.
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Old 09-29-2012, 04:50 AM   #767
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My boyfriend moved in in May and I have gained SO much weight. I was down to 141 before he moved in and not too far from goal. I really need to halt and reverse this weight gain and with a weight loss competition at work (winner gets a day of PTO, there are 4 of us at my office) I have extra motivation to fix this. In the past I have lost weight just eating low carb but when I look through my logs I lost most efficiently when I was eating 1200-1300 calories and had lower protein (accidental lower protein). I felt pretty deprived on that amount of food but felt I had to keep it that low. What I am seeing in my food logs is that when I did eat more calories I was eating 90-100 grams of protein and perhaps that is why I couldn't lose. So I find this thread very interesting and I am going to try reducing my protein to 60 grams, carbs under 20, and eating fat up to 1500 total calories or so.

I made leftover fowl salad this morning (turkey and chicken, with horseradish, mayo, miracle whip, sugar free relish, and celery) and couldn't finish the single serving I made. For lunch I will finish off that portion and probably make some jalapeno poppers. For dinner a half a chicken breast sauteed in olive oil and garlic on a salad with avocado and spicy ranch dressing. Wish me luck!
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Old 09-29-2012, 05:00 AM   #768
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Pot pie make sure you measure you will be surprised if you don't already
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Old 09-29-2012, 05:01 AM   #769
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I log everything by the gram already, thank goodness!
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Old 09-29-2012, 05:46 AM   #770
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Pot Pie! Glad to have you here on our NK adventure.

Interesting about the BG meters. I've only been testing glucose on a lark, but will probably not buy more BG strips for the Nova Max meter when mine run out.

Of course this leads to the question, I wonder how accurate the ketone readings are? I'm going to keep testing because I have the strips and I find the data interesting.

Today I am down .2 after the last 3 days of seeing my weight go up. That is still .8 up from my goal weight which does not make me happy, but it is within the bounds of normal weight fluctuations so I'm trying not to stress about it. I'm still testing in ketosis (1.2), and my BG was 81.

How is everyone else doing??
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:26 AM   #771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley View Post
Hi Drjlocarb again...I just realized that you are the one someone had mentioned earlier knew all about this. So, tell me about testing b/g during the day and after meals. My levels have ranged from 96 to 107 for the last few years, but this week hitting 111, 107, and 115 really spooked me, especially when I was doing a fat fast and didn't even have much in the way of protein/carbs as they would both share about 7% of the calories....i.e., not much! (2-3% for protein and 2-3% for carbs) Thanks for any info you can share. I'm the one that has not gotten my ketones up either, and I think I'm doing everything "right".
When I tested during the day and after meals, I found the readings fall all throughout the day. Never did I have a reading higher than the morning fasting b/g. By bedtime, I had readings in the 80's and 90's.

I would love to know if yours are the same.
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Old 09-29-2012, 07:39 AM   #772
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These are, in order, the models CR recommends. They all scored Excellent for accuracy.
I have an online subscription so just checked out the article. So annoying they didn't check the model I use (clever choice voice). I've been pretty happy with the meter, easy to use and readings do seem consistent. Plus I can pick up the strips online for cheap.
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Old 09-29-2012, 08:47 AM   #773
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Yesterday's totals:

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Today's weight: 148.6 - a new low (as I thought...) Yay!

Now I am expecting to go up a little this weekend - it is hard to manage my numbers as easily on the weekends...but that is okay. If the trend continues i'll go up then down again...we'll see.

Hope everyone is having a great weekend!
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:54 AM   #774
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Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
When I tested during the day and after meals, I found the readings fall all throughout the day. Never did I have a reading higher than the morning fasting b/g. By bedtime, I had readings in the 80's and 90's.

I would love to know if yours are the same.
I am a type 1 diabetic, so my blood sugars reflect highs and lows differently. I need more insulin during the morning, to offset "get up and go" hormones and cortisol from stress, even happy stress. My insulin needs go down in mid afternoon when I am the least resistant to insulin. Then I need more at night to cover my dinner- even with such few carbs and low protein I still need extra just to keep my body going.
so, different, but hopefully a picture of what our bodies are like and that our needs change during the day.We tend to be less resistant as the day goes on.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:42 AM   #775
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Sorry to leave you hanging!

1. Accu-Chek Aviva
2. Freestyle Freedom Lite
3. Accu-Chek Compact Plus
4. FreeStyle Lite
5. Bayer Breeze 2
6. Up & Up (Target)
7. ReliOn Micro (Walmart)
8. OneTouch UltraSmart
9. TrueResult

These are, in order, the models CR recommends. They all scored Excellent for accuracy.
.
Thank you!!!!!!
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #776
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When I tested during the day and after meals, I found the readings fall all throughout the day. Never did I have a reading higher than the morning fasting b/g. By bedtime, I had readings in the 80's and 90's.

I would love to know if yours are the same.
OK....is there a good time to test for how you would like me to do it? Like before lunch and dinner or after (how many hours after...I've heard 2?) and before bed?

My fasting b/g reading this morning was 91....yesterday 95, the day before 115, and then before that 111,94, 107. I'm all over the place and my eating is pretty much the same with 80-83% fat, 14-17% protein and usually 3-5% carbs. Other than the fat fast days when fat was 91-93% fat and about 3% protein and 3% carbs. My ketones were .6 I just don't know how to get them to raise. I also gained .6#. I consumed 1341 calories, 119.8 fat (80%), 52.3 protein (16%) and 12.7 carbs (4%). I ate more carbs than normal...had some lettuce and 1/2 of a cooked zucchini in olive oil at dinner.


Last edited by shelley; 09-29-2012 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 09-29-2012, 12:49 PM   #777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clairie View Post
I am a type 1 diabetic, so my blood sugars reflect highs and lows differently. I need more insulin during the morning, to offset "get up and go" hormones and cortisol from stress, even happy stress. My insulin needs go down in mid afternoon when I am the least resistant to insulin. Then I need more at night to cover my dinner- even with such few carbs and low protein I still need extra just to keep my body going.
so, different, but hopefully a picture of what our bodies are like and that our needs change during the day.We tend to be less resistant as the day goes on.
I am not diabetic so the info is interesting. Thanks.

I jumped off the wagon for a few months to check it all out and found the fasting b/g dropped to normal within days(120 to 84). Even with a high carb meal, the 1 and 2 hr b/g didn't rise to 100. After 3 months, my A1c dropped from 5.6 to 4.3. The high morning b/g was driving up my A1c too.

Within 2 days of vlc, the f/g was right back to the 100's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley View Post
OK....is there a good time to test for how you would like me to do it? Like before lunch and dinner or after (how many hours after...I've heard 2?) and before bed?

My fasting b/g reading this morning was 91....yesterday 95, the day before 115, and then before that 111,94, 107. I'm all over the place and my eating is pretty much the same with 80-83% fat, 14-17% protein and usually 3-5% carbs. Other than the fat fast days when fat was 91-93% fat and about 3% protein and 3% carbs. My ketones were .6 I just don't know how to get them to raise. I also gained .6#. I consumed 1341 calories, 119.8 fat (80%), 52.3 protein (16%) and 12.7 carbs (4%). I ate more carbs than normal...had some lettuce and 1/2 of a cooked zucchini in olive oil at dinner.

I was doing everything right too. I tested before each meal and 1 and 2 hours post. I also tested first thing in the morning and last thing at night. I never did get up at 2 am and check, but would have liked to.
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Old 09-29-2012, 12:53 PM   #778
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Shelly, what were your %'s like before starting NK and for how long?
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Old 09-29-2012, 04:09 PM   #779
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WOE: Nutritional Ketosis
Start Date: LC: 2010 NK: September 29 2012
So I'm done eating for today, my first day of NK, and I did pretty well I think. 65g protein, 17 grams carbs, about 1600 calories altogether. I definitely don't feel as full as I normally would if I ate lots of protein so I think I am in for a few days of cravings.

I bought an artichoke to cook for lunch tomorrow. I'm looking forward to the butter!
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Old 09-29-2012, 04:32 PM   #780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pot Pie View Post
I made leftover fowl salad this morning (turkey and chicken, with horseradish, mayo, miracle whip, sugar free relish, and celery) and couldn't finish the single serving I made.
Welcome to the thread, Pot Pie.

Your mention of mayo and miracle whip brought to mind Dr. Phinney's comments that his bike racers on NK in the metabolic ward found they just could not eat mayo or anything with high omega-6 oils after a few days into ketosis. There is a lot of other info around condemning industrial seed oils (soybean, cottonseed, safflower, sunflower, corn, canola, etc.) as unhealthy and probably part of the cause of our current obesity epidemic, but it was interesting that the bike racers found them so sickening in a short time. I guess it shows how smart the body can be about what to eat (or not) under the right conditions.

Naturally, it was the registered dieticians associated with Phinney's study that thought that these oils were healthy!

I was looking for mayo with olive oil at the local (supposedly) healthy food market this week, but all they had was full of disgusting junk high omega-6 oils (and all labeled as Heart Healthy). In a few years, you'll probably see lots of class action law suits against the purveyors of this dreck when the conventional wisdom finally shifts and people learn that this was part of what gave them metabolic syndrome.

Keep clam, Terry
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