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Old 09-14-2012, 10:53 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by laceymichelle View Post
Ok I have found some fat bomb recipes but all contain nut butters. Any recipes with no nuts? I want to try fat bomb for lunch to lower my protein
Hi laceymichelle,

You mentioned being tired on the old thread when eating LC. It may not be the protein, it may be low minerals. Remember to get in plenty of sodium, magnesium, and potassium. When I start dragging it's almost always low sodium or not enough fat calories overall.

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Old 09-14-2012, 10:59 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ravenrose View Post
I find it hard to understand why protein needs to be restricted so much while carbs are still relatively high.
I wonder if I missed something in the other 50+ page thread?

Carbs are restricted. For me the formula I use results in 37 grams of carbs but I haven't been over 30 (not net) since starting several days ago.

But I use the low number for Protein and, frankly, I ignore the carb number except that I am aware of them and actively keep them low.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:32 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
I saw a post about that in some other thread somewhere.

They were adamant about spreading your macros out during the day.

After thinking about it for a bit, and at great risk to my anonymous internet poster credibility, I find that I do not agree that it is absolutely mandatory, or even very important, to do that.

It strikes me as a hold over from the indoctrination of the 'well balanced meal' thinking that has resulted in epic obesity.

What if you aren't someone that has time or enjoys a meal for breakfast? What about not being hungry after a high fat breakfast and you only want a fat snack for lunch to hold you over till you get home to make healthy food?

Lots of people are in that situation by choice or circumstance and they are stunningly successful at weight loss and maintenance.

And, I think, it is an added layer of complexity that fosters failure for newbies.

One thing that someone said that I strongly disagreed with was that loading your protein at mostly one point in the day, breakfast, lunch, dinner whatever, was bad because lean body mass would suffer. *That* is what made me think that that whole thing wasn't very well thought out. It doesn't really matter how you eat, your body is constantly depleting and replenishing your lean body mass. If you are getting enough protein every day, even it if is only at one time all day long, your body is going to replenish LBM from it as needed. And that is the extreme of protein at only one point in the day. Most people eat some form of protein at least twice a day even if it isn't the right ratio.

On the other hand, there is zero downside to doing it so if you can then there is no reason not to do it.

Dr. Phinney talks about this in his interview on Jimmy Moore's site. Some of it is that people tend to do well with that sort of routine, psychologically. Dr. Phinney has worked in weight loss clinics, so I think he probably has some good insights into what patterns tend to work for losing weight *for most people*.

Dr. Attia has done some self-experimentation with IF and it sounds like it was too much protein for him to have most of it in one meal based on a few comments here and there on his blog. He hasn't done a full post on that n=1 experiment yet.

It probably just depends on how much protein a person needs to eat as well. I work out pretty intensely and have a good amount of LBM that I want to hold onto, so I eat 70-80 grams. Which is on the higher end for my 5'6" height based on the recommendations floating around. So eating 50+ grams at one meal is too much for my blood glucose, I know because I had a 60 g. night with hot wings and my 2 hour post-prandial BG was 91, compared with the mid to low 80s after most meals.

I certainly agree that the fat/protein meals don't have to be in a perfect ratio each meal. Whether that's 2 or 3 or more with small snacks. Sometimes I have almost all fat for breakfast and then more protein at lunch.

For me, as a recovering binge eater, spreading my meals out and not trying to restrict eating artificially helps me feel less deprived overall. I've done IF on purpose, but it starts to mess with my head pretty quickly. Now just not eating when not hungry, I think that happens to all of us. But again, Dr. Phinney (and I really think he knows his stuff from clinical and research experience) cautions against eating protein below minimum or very low calories, even on a ketogenic diet.

Last edited by 3Kids4me; 09-14-2012 at 11:34 AM..
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:43 AM   #34
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I work out pretty intensely and have a good amount of LBM that I want to hold onto, so I eat 70-80 grams. Which is on the higher end for my 5'6" height based on the recommendations floating around. So eating 50+ grams at one meal is too much for my blood glucose, I know because I had a 60 g. night with hot wings and my 2 hour post-prandial BG was 91, compared with the mid to low 80s after most meals.
Yes I agree with this. One-off situations are always self-leveling I think.

And, interestingly, knowing your protein requirements encourages spreading out the macros. That is, I know I *must* eat around 75g of protein so I'm thinking about that while making breakfast and lunch choices because, like you, I do not want to be faced with having to face plant a plate of a pound of meat at dinner time to get my minimums in.

Quote:
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But again, Dr. Phinney (and I really think he knows his stuff from clinical and research experience) cautions against eating protein below minimum or very low calories, even on a ketogenic diet.
That is something that I did not really grasp when I started a year ago. I mostly followed the HF/LC woe but, unlike now, I was not focused on at least minimum protein grams daily. I mean, I knew about LBM loss but I wasn't as concerned about it as I now feel I should have been.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:58 AM   #35
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Subbing. Just got my first tub of CO this morning - am enjoying it made into cocoa bark.

eta: mom 2 4 - are you using granulated splenda or the tablets? The granulated is 1g carb per tsp because they add a carby declumping agent to stop it sticking together. Tablets are more like 0.10g per tablet. I use hermestas liquid sweetener which is 0 carb.
Ugh, I use the packets of Splenda, had no idea! will definitely switch to liquid from now on, thanks for the info!
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:01 PM   #36
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That is something that I did not really grasp when I started a year ago. I mostly followed the HF/LC woe but, unlike now, I was not focused on at least minimum protein grams daily. I mean, I knew about LBM loss but I wasn't as concerned about it as I now feel I should have been.
I dabbled with low carb off and on for years, starting Atkins over and over. But I was always also drawn to weight training plans: Body for Life, New Rules of Lifting, etc. As I read about dieting in general the emphasis on not losing LBM so that one can maintain a lower weight without starvation was really central in a lot of those plans. When a person is in a caloric deficit, the body finds muscle easier to break down for energy in part to protect the brain. Now this is greatly minimized in ketosis since ketones are used by the brain and there's less reason to rob muscle. Enough protein in the diet also helps not make muscle the go-to energy with lower calories. And I really want to have a comfortable maintenance level of calories at goal so it's fairly easy to keep my 60+lbs (hopefully 90 lbs when all is said and done) off. Adequate muscle and never eating very low calories will help with this I hope.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:34 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
I saw a post about that in some other thread somewhere.

They were adamant about spreading your macros out during the day.

After thinking about it for a bit, and at great risk to my anonymous internet poster credibility, I find that I do not agree that it is absolutely mandatory, or even very important, to do that.
...

On the other hand, there is zero downside to doing it so if you can then there is no reason not to do it.
One group for whom this spreading-out-your-macros approach may make sense are people who are diabetic and controlling their blood sugar levels through diet. The "Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution" book emphasizes using predictable levels of carbs and protein spread across 3 meals, and I find his argument persuasive that this helps control blood glucose levels in diabetics. But people who are not diabetic do not face as many challenges in terms of avoid overly high or low blood sugar levels and fluctuations.

People who have to cope with hypoglycemia in the absence of diabetes may also need to balance out their intake across meals.

It's a YMMV sort of thing, I imagine, but those are the two groups that occur to me for whom this approach might be especially pertinent.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:39 PM   #38
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One group for whom this spreading-out-your-macros approach may make sense are people who are diabetic and controlling their blood sugar levels through diet. The "Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution" book emphasizes using predictable levels of carbs and protein spread across 3 meals, and I find his argument persuasive that this helps control blood glucose levels in diabetics. But people who are not diabetic do not face as many challenges in terms of avoid overly high or low blood sugar levels and fluctuations.

People who have to cope with hypoglycemia in the absence of diabetes may also need to balance out their intake across meals.

It's a YMMV sort of thing, I imagine, but those are the two groups that occur to me for whom this approach might be especially pertinent.
Yes, of course, I totally agree with that. But one-off groups like that are almost always self leveling.

But the 'spread your macros' meme isn't promoted with the asterisk of 'health or other issues present' it is, when I've seen it, presented as the only smart way to do it. Except the reasons for it being smart are usually fuzzy at best or flat out wrong (in my non-doctor anonymous internet poster opinion) as with the example of LBM I gave.

=)
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:53 PM   #39
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It's interesting to note that the amino acids that make up the proteins we eat fall into two groups, the ones that can be converted into glucose through gluconeogenesis and the ones thatcan be converted into ketone bodies through ketogenesis, plus the ones that do both. A few of the essential ones are in that first group, and some swing both ways. .
That's interesting I"m not sure which are which? Although I've read a lot about BCAA being the "bad" one and the one that *some* but not all people do convert to glucose. Makes sense to me and explains why I gained weight after following the shake plan in the Cure for the Middle Age Middle since whey shakes are mostly bcaas.

My general understanding is
1) Not all folks convert protein to glucose or find it a problem. But the obese and formerly obese are much more likely to have this metabolic pathway active.
2) Some of the folks here doing gangbusters weight loss came from a prior carb eating WOE
3) Those of us who are slow/constant stallers are finding some success. Some really fast...and then some of us more like a pound a month. Any pound better than no pound though.

I've been one of those eating slightly higher carbs, but I think I'm going to restrict 15-25 net. I don't think those extra carbs are particularly important but it made sense when I was coming from the Optimal Diet readings on the matter.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:03 PM   #40
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:30 PM   #41
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To lighten things up, here's what I ate yesterday...

B - Smoothie with 1T CO, 1/3 C strawberries, 1/4 c Almond Milk, 1/2 C full fat greek yogurt, 1 pkt splenda

Snack - diet root beer with 3 T HWC

L - 1.6 oz Tuna, 3 oz cherry tomatoes, 2 T olive oil, 2 oz Avocado, 1 C lettuce, 1.5 T ranch

D - 4 oz pork tenderloin, home made cream sauce, 1 C Lettuce, .5 T CO, 1/4 C each carrot and celery, .5 T Olive Oil,

Dessert - 4 T HWC, whipped and sweetened with splenda/vanilla - ate it right off the spatula. Yum!!

CALS: 1606
C - 37g
F - 141g
P - 48g

Close enough...and .6 down from yesterday - I'll take it!
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:33 PM   #42
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B - Smoothie with 1T CO, 1/3 C strawberries, 1/4 c Almond Milk, 1/2 C full fat greek yogurt, 1 pkt splenda

Close enough...and .6 down from yesterday - I'll take it!
May I ask, what type of Almond Milk did you use? Was it unsweetened vanilla or plain?

Congrats on the loss =)
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:46 PM   #43
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I'm not sure how long it takes to start gluconeogenesis, but I have tested after eating 1/2 my protein for the day (around 40 grams) in one meal and I was still in ketosis 2 hours later.

I am happy to eat most of my protein in two meals (breakfast and dinner). That makes for a more satisfying "hunk" of meat at dinner (even though it's still much less than I used to eat). Lunch is almost all fat and it seems to keep me satisfied.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:05 PM   #44
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May I ask, what type of Almond Milk did you use? Was it unsweetened vanilla or plain?

Congrats on the loss =)
Thanks!! Trader Joe Unsweetened Vanilla Almond Non Dairy Beverage or something like that. Sometimes I will use whole milk or HWC - whatever I have around, I guess.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:11 PM   #45
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Here are my totals for today:

Calories 1338
Fat 115 77%
Carbs 15 4.5%
Protein 62 18%

B - Coffee with 1 T CO
2 fried eggs
L - 1 fat bomb
D - 5 oz roast beef, 2 T low sugar catsup, 1 T HWC mixed with beef juices
1/2 cup broccoli salad and 1/2 cup jello/CC/Greek yogurt concoction I made
S Diet root beer float with 1T HWC
2 Fat bombs
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:15 PM   #46
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Thanks!! Trader Joe Unsweetened Vanilla Almond Non Dairy Beverage or something like that. Sometimes I will use whole milk or HWC - whatever I have around, I guess.
I have the unsweetened vanilla almond but the Silk brand.

Gosh, the coconut milk was so awful I almost didn't get the almond milk to try. I'm glad I did though. It is really good in shakes/creme type drinks.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:20 PM   #47
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1 T HWC mixed with beef juices
Yummy!
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:38 PM   #48
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I have the unsweetened vanilla almond but the Silk brand.

Gosh, the coconut milk was so awful I almost didn't get the almond milk to try. I'm glad I did though. It is really good in shakes/creme type drinks.
Glad to hear I'm not the only one who did not care for the coconut milk.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:53 PM   #49
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I think I'll probably try and eat a bit more yet before bed. Some grass-fed cheddar perhaps. But my post-dinner BG test was 84, which is right where I want it.

Here's where I am right now, I had chicken in a couple of meals and that means lower fat overall instead of a fatty meat. I'll probably try and eat 2-300 more calories before bed and 10 g. of protein. If I weren't planning to work out in the morning I'd worry less about it, but I want to have enough energy first thing to hit it hard.


Calories: 1,179
Carbs: 10
Fat: 98
Protein: 65


After 2 weeks without sweeteners, I think I'm going to cut my experiment short. I'm heading into PMS week and I just feel like I may need a fall-back option to keep me from waking up covered in brownie crumbs. I'm feeling pretty craving-free, but less strong than I was a couple days ago. If any of my numbers show that the sweeteners mess with me, or cravings increase at all, I'll cut them back out. But this is the week of the month I just need a little more wiggle room, psychologically.

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Old 09-14-2012, 06:27 PM   #50
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I think I'll probably try and eat a bit more yet before bed. Some grass-fed cheddar perhaps. But my post-dinner BG test was 84, which is right where I want it.

Here's where I am right now, I had chicken in a couple of meals and that means lower fat overall instead of a fatty meat. I'll probably try and eat 2-300 more calories before bed and 10 g. of protein. If I weren't planning to work out in the morning I'd worry less about it, but I want to have enough energy first thing to hit it hard.


Calories: 1,179
Carbs: 10
Fat: 98
Protein: 65


After 2 weeks without sweeteners, I think I'm going to cut my experiment short. I'm heading into PMS week and I just feel like I may need a fall-back option to keep me from waking up covered in brownie crumbs. I'm feeling pretty craving-free, but less strong than I was a couple days ago. If any of my numbers show that the sweeteners mess with me, or cravings increase at all, I'll cut them back out. But this is the week of the month I just need a little more wiggle room, psychologically.

--Jamie
Hi Jamie,

I hope you *did* eat some more. Your fat is pretty low and that is what keeps you from having cravings or being hungry....you are also low on calories, and fat is good about getting those numbers up.

I'm with you on the splenda/SF syrups and such....I have not had any issues in staying in ketosis with having them. And they are yummy!
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:27 PM   #51
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Glad to hear I'm not the only one who did not care for the coconut milk.
I love coconut. You should have seen the look of utter disbelief on my face lol
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:30 PM   #52
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OK...am done eating for the day and had the most yummy pizza for dinner....yup, legal! I used a cheese slicer to slice pieces of a nice little zucchini...salted it and stuck it in the oven to get rid of all the "water". Then put some low carb pizza sauce on top (put the slices in a silicone pan), then slices of pepperoni and then covered it with shredded mozzarella. Put it in the oven until it was "ready" and then ate it all. My calories/fat, etc. stayed right where I want them.

Today:

1439 calories
131.0 fat (81%)
53.3 protein (15%)
13.0 carb (4%).

Glucose this AM was 92 and my ketones dropped back down to .7...no idea why, but at least they are still in the right zone.

Last edited by shelley; 09-14-2012 at 06:33 PM..
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:43 PM   #53
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My totals for today:

2,030 calories
28 carb (net)
170 fat
79 protein

Today was a high day. My breakfast was too early, then a light lunch. I was quite hungry when I got home at 4 and scarfed 3 fat bombs (mine are smaller so it was more like 1.5). Then we had pizza for dinner. I only eat the toppings but still, that's a lot carbs/protein/cals. It's okay, it's not like a cheat or anything.

B: coffee w/HWC, bacon, avocado
L: salad with egg/chicken/pickles/mayo
Sn: fat bombs
D: pizza toppings

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Old 09-14-2012, 06:44 PM   #54
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Hi Jamie,

I hope you *did* eat some more. Your fat is pretty low and that is what keeps you from having cravings or being hungry....you are also low on calories, and fat is good about getting those numbers up.

I'm with you on the splenda/SF syrups and such....I have not had any issues in staying in ketosis with having them. And they are yummy!
I did indeed. Kerrygold reserve cheddar with butter and some dill pickles.

New numbers for today:

Calories: 1,545
Carbs: 11
Fat: 131
Protein: 81
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:54 PM   #55
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from eating 50 grams of carbs a day
Ah, I think I figured out the confusion.

No one doing the NK in this thread is following the Optimal Diet. A few of us are just using his formula for to calculate the protein requirements. And, I think, it is from the first phase of his plan.

(Height in cm - 100) +/-10% = Protein range.

Fat = P*2.5 to 3.5
Carbs = P*.5

The others are using the LBM method to calculate the protein range.

=)
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:03 PM   #56
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I did indeed. Kerrygold reserve cheddar with butter and some dill pickles.

New numbers for today:

Calories: 1,545
Carbs: 11
Fat: 131
Protein: 81
Kerygold makes cheese too? Is it as good as the butter?
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:05 PM   #57
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Kerygold makes cheese too? Is it as good as the butter?
Costco sells a big block (2 lbs?) of the Reserve Cheddar. It's WONDERFUL. My regular grocery store also sells Gouda and that's fantastic as well.
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:07 PM   #58
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Hmmm, wonder about SAMs? Don't belong to costco
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:53 PM   #59
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WOE: LC/MP/HF
Start Date: Restart 7/1/2014
I just ate a T of butter! Just butter. I was going to have my last fat bomb on today's plan but decided to try this new grass fed butter I bought today. Humbolt Creamery. I took a sliver and decide I would just have a T of that instead of my fat bomb. Oh, it was yummy! Who needs popcorn?
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:17 PM   #60
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 103
Gallery: mom_2_4
Stats: 298/210/150ish
WOE: Atkins for the first 100 lbs now doing NK
Start Date: August 2006
Ok, I definitely need to work on my foods. My fat jumped up pretty quickly. Made worse by the fact I tried CO this morning, along with hwc in my coffee. Haven't eaten since lunch but I don't know what to eat cause my fat seems a little high. My numbers are
Fat:144.8
Carbs:9.5
Protein:11
Calories:1323.1
I had coffee w/hwc and Splenda til one when I ate lunch, lunch I had 3oz of chicken and 3 cups of salad w/ avocado, feta, 2tbsp ranch, 2 tbsp vinaigrette and a diet Pepsi. Other than that just water all day. I'm pretty hungry now but don't know what to eat that will be filling and not make the fat number skyrocket. Seems high enough already. Definitely takes some getting used to to watch ALL of these numbers just going to drink more water and go to bed. Will work on better planning tomorrow now that I see how this happens lol nighty night everyone!
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