Nutritional Ketosis (LC/HF/MP) Challenge Anyone?

[mom2zeke]

Welcome paulabob!

Nutritional ketosis is described in the Phinney/Volek book The Art and Science of Low-Carbohydrate Performance. svenskamae has a bunch of posts on this thread about what's in the book, and I have a few myself.

[Carli]

Ive been absent for a few days and am now catching up on the board...I need some help figuring out my ratios I was very interested in Rebecca's blog and formula, but Im struggling with it...

Im 5'10" so 177.8cm tall. If Im understanding correctly, I reduce that by 100 to get 77.8 kilograms, or 171 pds as my ideal weight.

From there...I don't know how to figure out my lean body mass. I think I followed the formula on the blog and came up with 78g of protein (give or take 10%) but aren't I supposed to be using my lean body mass weight, not goal weight? Its late...Im confused...help..haha

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by Carli

Ive been absent for a few days and am now catching up on the board...I need some help figuring out my ratios I was very interested in Rebecca's blog and formula, but Im struggling with it...

Im 5'10" so 177.8cm tall. If Im understanding correctly, I reduce that by 100 to get 77.8 kilograms, or 171 pds as my ideal weight.

From there...I don't know how to figure out my lean body mass. I think I followed the formula on the blog and came up with 78g of protein (give or take 10%) but aren't I supposed to be using my lean body mass weight, not goal weight? Its late...Im confused...help..haha

It sounds like you are going by the Dr. Jan formula, and yes, he says to use your goal lean body mass to set the amount of protein to eat. If your goal weight is 171 pounds, then you need to decide what body fat percentage you want to be. Once you know that, you can just do the math to figure out what your goal is for lean body mass. Example:

171 pounds
43 pounds body fat (25%)
128 pounds lean body mass (75%)

Or, if you want your body fat to be lower, how about this:

171 pounds
34 pounds body fat (20%)
137 pounds lean body mass (80%)

Remember, the lower your body fat, the more muscle you will have to put on. So if you are not into resistence training (lifting weights), you may have to settle for a greater body fat percentage. As for me, I have decided that if I reach 25% body fat, I will be happy.


I have had my body fat measured by DEXA and Bod Pod, and the numbers I got for those were less than a percentage point off what I got by plugging in my numbers on the thing I mentioned in the paragraph above! It's not perfect, but it is certainly good enough to get you going in the right direction, and it's a lot cheaper than the real tests!

[mom2zeke]

Good morning everyone!
Still holding steady at 157 this morning!!! All of my "skinny clothes" are getting too big. Last night I ate a larger serving of ribeye (5.5 ounces compared to my now normal 3 ounces) and I was worried that eating most of my protein for the day in one sitting might effect my ketones and blood glucose so I decided to test both this morning. Blood glucose was 84 (I've been in the 70s all week) and ketones were 4.1.

With over a week of testing I think that I can pretty much say that I'm in the nutritional ketosis zone! I got my order of new test strips but I'm going to try to save them to test when I get to goal. It's really hard! Testing kind of becomes this way of assuring yourself that you're doing the right thing. But the strips are too expensive to use every day. I will continue to use the glucose strips since they're relatively inexpensive.

This morning's stats:
Food 7/27/12
Carbs: 16 grams - 5%
Protein: 72 grams - 25%
Fat: 98 grams - 71%
Alcohol: 0 grams - 0%
Calories: 1226

7/28/12
AM fasting blood ketones: 4.1
AM fasting blood glucose: 84
Weight: 157

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

I have had my body fat measured by DEXA and Bod Pod, and the numbers I got for those were less than a percentage point off what I got by plugging in my numbers on the thing I mentioned in the paragraph above! It's not perfect, but it is certainly good enough to get you going in the right direction, and it's a lot cheaper than the real tests!

I really want to do the DEXA scan. It's pretty pricey so I thought I'd wait until I got to my goal weight. I found a place nearby that is having a summer special through 8/31. If I reach goal before then I think I'll have it done.

[hippyatheart]

I am down another pound this morning! Yeah!

I have been dealing with some major cravings the past couple of days. I Sooooo wanted to eat the pizza the family got to watch the Olympic opening ceremonies with. My blue cheese brat was not satisfying AT ALL! I know I could make the low carb pizza crust but that does nothing for me. I went to bed pissed off that I couldn't have even a slice! My dreams all last night was about having a cheat day and eating what I want. Ugh.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by hippyatheart

I am down another pound this morning! Yeah!

Yeah hippy!!

I have been dealing with some major cravings the past couple of days. I Sooooo wanted to eat the pizza the family got to watch the Olympic opening ceremonies win. My blue cheese brat. Was not satisfying AT ALL! I know I could make the low carb pizza crust but that does nothing for me. I went to bed posses off that I couldn't have even a slice! My dreams all last night was about having g a cheat day and eating what I want. Ugh.

That must have been hard--good job toughing it out! How do you feel this morning? Whenever I have one of those moments I usually wake up feeling very glad that I didn't cave. And you got a 1 pound reward on top of that!

I had a bunch of cravings in the days before my 3 pound weight drop. I think perhaps our bodies are trying to fight the inevitable loss. I find that if I can hold steady I will be rewarded, but it is tough!!

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

There's some interesting discussion of different recommendations for protein intake, especially a recent post by Auntie Em, in the Rosedale Diet thread on the main board, so consider checking that out, folks.

I guess I'm dense, because I looked and I can't find the Rosedale thread. Could you post a link to that, please? Thanks!

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Does anyone find this to be true? I know that I'm keto-adapted but I still have to make an effort to reduce fat. I'm not starving, but I would definitely eat more if I wasn't trying to lose.

I try to think back to when I was eating low-fat and I was starving all of the time. That is not what I experience now, but I am not full either.

Since I have been eating so high fat recently, I do NOT have to make an effort to reduce fat. It has been a pleasure to get to cut back a little!

By the way, after a bunch of number crunching, I decided to eat like this for the next week to see if I can start losing again:

1539 calories
135g fat (79%)
54g protein (14%)
27g carbs (7%)

I'm not going to test ketones every day, but I will every few days, and I will test glucose now and then, too.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by hippyatheart

I am down another pound this morning! Yeah!

I have been dealing with some major cravings the past couple of days. I Sooooo wanted to eat the pizza the family got to watch the Olympic opening ceremonies with. My blue cheese brat was not satisfying AT ALL! I know I could make the low carb pizza crust but that does nothing for me. I went to bed pissed off that I couldn't have even a slice! My dreams all last night was about having a cheat day and eating what I want. Ugh.

First of all, congratulations!

Second of all, it always bugs me when people say things like, "I love eating low carb and I NEVER feel deprived!"

I am committed to eating low carb for the rest of my life, but I am NOT going to say that I never feel deprived. When I am at a party and everyone is eating high carb goodies, I feel deprived.

[Tatsnook]

I read the article The Scientist and The Stairmaster, why most of us believe that Exercise makes us thinner-And why we are wrong by Gary Taubs.
Does Exercise Really Make Us Thinner? -- New York Magazine
If to tell his idea short, exercise makes us hungry and it's uphill battle trying to lose weight and exercise at the same time. I have been exercising regularly whole July: weight lifting 3 times a week and do I have any results? No! I feel I am stronger. I can do more push ups, but weight and body composition are the same! So, I decided to stop exercising in August and just do ketogenic diet. Let's see what's happened.
I finally got my blood glucose and ketone meter. Blood glucose is good, 85, but blood ketone is low :-( I expected it because my diet was not good last 2 days (had a few drinks). Will recheck it again in a couple days after I straighten my diet.

[Tatsnook]

I also think that I have been eating too much (about 1900 cal). May be dropping exercise will help me to low my calorie intake.

[JMCM1]

Rebecca I am so glad you are posting here - I had already found your blog. I am interested that you are eating so many calories and to my mind - your losses of fat and addition of lean body weight, plus a loss of almost 2 inches around the waist are fantastic.

Are you diabetic? Sorry I didn't read back far enough to see.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by Tatsnook

I read the article The Scientist and The Stairmaster, why most of us believe that Exercise makes us thinner-And why we are wrong by Gary Taubs.
Does Exercise Really Make Us Thinner? -- New York Magazine
If to tell his idea short, exercise makes us hungry and it's uphill battle trying to lose weight and exercise at the same time. I have been exercising regularly whole July: weight lifting 3 times a week and do I have any results? No! I feel I am stronger. I can do more push ups, but weight and body composition are the same! So, I decided to stop exercising in August and just do ketogenic diet. Let's see what's happened.

For myself I do not find this to be totally true. If I can keep my diet in check then I find exercise to be very motivating. For me I have to be eating well when I start and not change my eating pattern because of exercise. I know that a lot of people fall into the trap thinking that they can eat more or are just hungrier because of exercise, but that hasn't always been my experience. I actually think that being keto adapted helps not to eat too much with exercise because your body taps into your fat stores for energy. But, as always, YMMV.

I finally got my blood glucose and ketone meter. Blood glucose is good, 85, but blood ketone is low :-( I expected it because my diet was not good last 2 days (had a few drinks). Will recheck it again in a couple days after I straighten my diet.

I'm sure you'll get right back on track!

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by JMCM1

Rebecca I am so glad you are posting here - I had already found your blog. I am interested that you are eating so many calories and to my mind - your losses of fat and addition of lean body weight, plus a loss of almost 2 inches around the waist are fantastic.

Are you diabetic? Sorry I didn't read back far enough to see.

If you look at my Week 1 Results on my blog, you will see that I did initially lose weight and inches even though I was eating a lot of fat. But, about a week and a half into it, I stalled out and then started gaining again. So, now I am not eating high calorie any more, and I talk about what I am eating on my blog under Week 3 Results. I reduced my fat by 50g per day, and after a day or so of that, I started losing again.

I am not diabetic, although my blood sugar goes up very rapidly when I eat carbs. So I am not going to do that any more. My husband has been pre-diabetic for years, got it under control with low carb eating for a couple of years, but has spent the last year eating higher carb. Just last night, he ate one and a half cobs of sweet corn, and an hour later, his blood glucose was 184. This is the first time we have checked it in almost a year. We had a long talk about it today, and he agreed that he will start eating what I tell him to again. I will put him on the same plan that I am on and see if we can get his blood glucose back under control.

We checked his glucose again this morning and it was 95, and an hour and a half after breakfast, it was 106. Not terribly high, but not ideal. I would like to see his fasting BG at least in the 80s and his postprandial no higher than 100, or even 90, ideally.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Great post Rebecca! I love how you're tracking everything and your charts. Hopefully the changes that you're making will help you start losing again.

Thanks, Kristn! I hope so, too!

[mom2zeke]

Went out last night bowling with friends and elected myself designated driver. I had a great time without: alcohol and the loaded fries that the other couple ordered. They didn't even look good.

I woke up this morning and scale read: 155! I seem to be on a roll this week. I am now down 20 pounds since I was weighed 175 at the doctor's office in March. On 5/17 at the doctors' office I was 171. A week after that appointment I started taking kettlebell classes and trying to adjust my diet. I don't think it was long after that I read Jimmy's blog about nutritional ketosis, bought the book, and ordered the meter. At that time I started to lower my protein without measuring or counting. When I got the meter and started to log my stats into ****** things really jelled for me. It's been so helpful for me to adjust what I'm eating to fit the parameters when I plan everything the day before. I've never really done this before.

Anyway--I'm really, really happy that this seems to be working for me!

This morning's stats:
Yesterday's Food 7/28/12
Carbs: 19 grams - 5%
Protein: 61 grams - 19%
Fat: 116 grams - 76%
Alcohol: 0 grams - 0%
Calories: 1346

7/29/12
AM fasting blood ketones: not done
AM fasting blood glucose: 77
Weight: 155

[mom2zeke]

If you ordered the Nova Max Plus meter remember to register it! I registered mine last week and yesterday got two free ketone strips in the mail!

[JMCM1]

Krstn that is amazingly wonderful.

[RebeccaLatham]

I just found a chart.

It says that body fat should be adjusted by age, which means that, at my age of 56, 25% body fat may be too low. Possibly 30% is more realistic.

What does everyone else think? What body fat percentages are you shooting for?

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I woke up this morning and scale read: 155! I seem to be on a roll this week. I am now down 20 pounds since I was weighed 175 at the doctor's office in March. On 5/17 at the doctors' office I was 171.

That's fantastic!

[mom2zeke]

Interesting! I am shooting for 20%, but at 49 that falls into the underfat category. I am now seriously considering that DXA scan.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Interesting! I am shooting for 20%, but at 49 that falls into the underfat category. I am now seriously considering that DXA scan.

How did you happen on 20% as a good number for you?

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

How did you happen on 20% as a good number for you?

When my body fat % was measured in the past I've always had 120 pounds of LBM. I was once 150 (I was going through my divorce and couldn't eat--I was choking down 1 Atkins bar a day) and I liked the way I looked at that weight. At 150 with 120 pounds of lbm that's 20% BF. Of course, it's been a while since I was measured so my LBM may have gone down. That's why I'm curious to do the DXA scan.

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

I just found this chart.

It says that body fat should be adjusted by age, which means that, at my age of 56, 25% body fat may be too low. Possibly 30% is more realistic.

What does everyone else think? What body fat percentages are you shooting for?

That's never made sense to me, since fat looks even worse at 42 (for me) than it did at 22. When I was younger fat went into curves, now just my poochy belly.

I'm aiming for 20%...at 28% right now, and have 30 1/2 inch waist, 37 1/2 inch "belly", and just under 39 inch hips. I still have plenty of flab.

That said, pretty sure I won't be close to my aim body fat when I hit 110. I know my aunts with my frame all topped out at 95 pounds, but can't imagine going there... I'll just be so proud to hit 110...that's been since I was 18.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by paulabob

That's never made sense to me, since fat looks even worse at 42 (for me) than it did at 22. When I was younger fat went into curves, now just my poochy belly.

I agree that the fat looks worse as you get older. But that's more about vanity (and trust me I'm there!). I think the chart is more about being healthy, and you can certainly be healthy at a higher body fat % than you feel good naked at.

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I agree that the fat looks worse as you get older. But that's more about vanity (and trust me I'm there!). I think the chart is more about being healthy, and you can certainly be healthy at a higher body fat % than you feel good naked at.

I think the fact that...on me, it piles on in the belly only is a sign it's not healthy. As far as cellulite or appearance of the fat...I don't think it looks any worse due to age (except for drooping).

So in my 20s, at 27% body fat I looked good and it was healthy. Now, it neither looks good nor is healthy I don't think, since "they" say belly fat isn't healthy. If all my fat was back in those rocking curves I used to have...I'd be happy right at this weight. But it isn't.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by paulabob

I think the fact that...on me, it piles on in the belly only is a sign it's not healthy. As far as cellulite or appearance of the fat...I don't think it looks any worse due to age (except for drooping).

So in my 20s, at 27% body fat I looked good and it was healthy. Now, it neither looks good nor is healthy I don't think, since "they" say belly fat isn't healthy. If all my fat was back in those rocking curves I used to have...I'd be happy right at this weight. But it isn't.

My fat is in my curves (butt and thighs) and I'm not happy with it. It used to be nice firm fat, but is firm no longer. Like I said, mine is purely vanity. At this point I don't think that there are health issues with it.

[mom2zeke]

I just want to share with you guys how great it feels to finally be losing weight after all these years! DH and I went to Goodwill yesterday and bought a bunch of new (to us) clothes. My 14s don't fit at all and all of my 12s are getting loose. I bought a bunch of cute summer tops, a skirt, a pair of black pants for work, and 2 pairs of size 10 jeans--including a pair of super cute Lucky jeans that are a bit tight but should be perfect at goal.

I would say I'm between a 10 and 12 right now. Some 10s fit me, some are a bit snug. I would rather wear loose 12's than tight 10's--I just don't like the feel of tight clothes.

I also went through all my old clothes and found a bunch of things I hadn't worn in years that now fit me. I sent a large bag of clothing to Goodwill. Not my good larger clothes, I'm storing them just in case. But all the stuff that I know I will never wear again, large and small. It felt great to do the purge and also see so many choices in my closet.

I will probably go shopping for new clothes when I get to goal and have maintained for a while. I have clothes that I bought new that I never wore because I didn't stay at that weight and I don't want to repeat that!

I really want this to stick and I hope that the ketone meter will help me determine the correct ratios to keep this weight off.

[Alessandre]

That is wonderful, Kristn, and very inspirational! I hope you are enjoying your new clothes!