Nutritional Ketosis (LC/HF/MP) Challenge Anyone?

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Thanks for all the great links and information Rebecca!

You're welcome!

I love the information about overdoing cardio.

There are many people who are overdoing the cardio thing because they have bought into the whole Calories In Calories Out nonsense. If that worked in the human body, it would be very simple for people to acheive their weight loss goals.

Every time I hear someone say, "If you want to lose a pound a week, just decrease your calories by 700 each day, or increase your calorie-burning exercise by 700 each day, and voila! You will automatically lose a pound. It's science." I want to scream!

This morning I saw my lowest weight so far--159.

I'm so happy for you!

I'm going to post my macronutrients in grams as well as % since the grams of protein and carbs are probably more important than the %.

That's right. One thing I have noticed on this thread is that everyone seems to be on pretty low fat percentages and overall calories. I know that Phinney and Volek talk about Nutritional Ketosis involving fat percentages of more like 85%. Is there anyone here who is doing that besides me?

And if you are keeping it low, what is the reasoning behind that? People just feel like that is what is working for them?

I started out a couple of weeks ago at 187g of fat each day (85%) but then reduced it on Sunday to 177g (84.3%) because it was just too hard to eat all the fat. 177g is easier, but if I do not see inches loss, I may decrease it a little more and check to see if I still stay in ketosis according to my blood ketones.

[RebeccaLatham]

I did test my blood glucose one last time before going to bed last night.

1.5 hours after cake and ice cream - 117
2.5 hours after cake and ice cream - 141
3.5 hours after cake and ice cream - 106
This morning before eating - 91

My fasting glucose has been an average of 84. It needs to get back down there.

Also, I tested my blood ketones this morning, and they were only 1.7, which is the lowest they have been so far. Obviously, the cake reduced my blood ketone bodies. I am still in the recommended range, but I want it to go back up to where it was before, which was an average of 2.4.

I will eat what I should today and test ketones again in the morning to see how quickly I will get back to the number I want.

I only have 4 ketone strips left. Time to order more! And, DANG! They're expensive! No more high sugar "experiments" for me! I can't afford the strips to find out the results!

Oh, and by the way, the cake and ice cream I had was a VERY SMALL portion. Everyone else there (including hubby, who needs to be more careful with his blood sugar) was having a slice of cake that was at least three times bigger than the slice I ate. What in the world would my blood sugar have been if I had eaten the slice that I was originally offered???

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

And if you are keeping it low, what is the reasoning behind that? People just feel like that is what is working for them?

Hi Rebecca,
My reading of Phinney/Voleck is that when you are in weight-loss mode some of your daily fat% is made up of your body fat being used for energy. My goal is to stay in nutritional ketosis and utilize body fat as much as possible. I have strugged for so long (9.5 years stalled) to lose these last pounds and have been strictly low-carb that entire time. While I'm so grateful that I maintained my loss, I've come to believe that I need further restriction to get to a lower weight.

Once I've hit goal I will up my fat to the percentages in the book for maintenance with nutritional ketosis.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Hi Rebecca,
My reading of Phinney/Voleck is that when you are in weight-loss mode some of your daily fat% is made up of your body fat being used for energy.

Well, since my book has not arrived yet, I am going by what Jimmy told me a couple of weeks ago. He said the they had told him to stay at 85% fat as intake, not including the body fat that was being burned. So I figured I would do that, too.

Any time where there is a mention of a ketogenic diet being used for medical reasons, they always talk about the percentage of fat as what is actually being eaten, and it's always high, like 80-90%.

When I get my book, I will see what my take is on it. I'll also ask Jimmy.

Recently, Tom Naughton mentioned that he was having trouble getting his blood ketone levels up and losing the last few pounds, so he was going to increase fat, not decrease it.

Of course, we are all different, and what works for one person will not necessarily work for another. If using really high fat percentages ends up not working for me, I will adjust it until it does.

[RebeccaLatham]

Because I keep track of everything I eat (even when it is embarrassing), I did an estimate on the cake and ice cream. By eating a very small slice of cake and a very small scoop of ice cream, I added 37g fat, 7.5g protein and 95g carbs to my day.

If I had not had the cake, my total carbs for the day would have been 22. With the dessert, they were 117. YIKES!

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

Recently, Tom Naughton mentioned that he was having trouble getting his blood ketone levels up and losing the last few pounds, so he was going to increase fat, not decrease it.

Of course, we are all different, and what works for one person will not necessarily work for another. If using really high fat percentages ends up not working for me, I will adjust it until it does.

I have been in the ketosis zone (even a bit high at times) every time I've tested so this seems to be working well for me.

Here's something from The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance: As you adjust your body weight and training intensity, your consumption of carbohydrates and protein will remain fairly stable despite changes in goals and activity levels, whereas how much fat you consume will be dictated by your energy demands, body weight and composition goals, and satiety. If you want to lose weight, the total amount of fat consumed will be reduced. If weight loss is not a goal, your dietary fat needs to be maintained at a level that matches your energy expenditure, thus holding your body weight stable.

[clackley]

Here is what I typically shoot for although I must confess that I have been trying to keep calories closer to 1000 range and therefore fat has been under.

Calories =1,200 carb =15g (fiber 14g), fat=107g, protein=45g

Today my #'s should come in at: calories = 1196, carbs = 21g, fiber =4g, fat= 106g and protein=45g

After weeks of this, my weight remains stable.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Here's something from The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance: As you adjust your body weight and training intensity, your consumption of carbohydrates and protein will remain fairly stable despite changes in goals and activity levels, whereas how much fat you consume will be dictated by your energy demands, body weight and composition goals, and satiety. If you want to lose weight, the total amount of fat consumed will be reduced. If weight loss is not a goal, your dietary fat needs to be maintained at a level that matches your energy expenditure, thus holding your body weight stable.

That's very interesting. I can't wait to get my book so I can read this stuff for myself!

I usually make adjustments on a weekly basis, so, unless I start losing again, I am going to decrease my fat another 10 grams starting on Sunday, and see if that helps.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by clackley

Here is what I typically shoot for although I must confess that I have been trying to keep calories closer to 1000 range and therefore fat has been under.

Calories =1,200 carb =15g (fiber 14g), fat=107g, protein=45g

Today my #'s should come in at: calories = 1196, carbs = 21g, fiber =4g, fat= 106g and protein=45g

After weeks of this, my weight remains stable.

Hi, Cathy! Just out of curiosity, why so low on the protein? Are you a wee, bitty thing?

And you say you are maintaining. Is this what you want to do, or are you still trying to lose some fat?

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

That's very interesting. I can't wait to get my book so I can read this stuff for myself!

Honestly, the book is mostly about being an athlete and using ketosis and fat rather than carbs to fuel your training. The tidbits about weight-loss are in there, but not obvious. I'm looking forward to their new book which I hope is more about nutritional ketosis and weight-loss. Because while I'd love to think of myself as an athlete, I don't train at the level that they're talking about. I do find that I'm not hungry after working out which I believe (hope) is because I'm utilizing my fat stores for energy.

[RebeccaLatham]

[clackley]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

Hi, Cathy! Just out of curiosity, why so low on the protein? Are you a wee, bitty thing?

And you say you are maintaining. Is this what you want to do, or are you still trying to lose some fat?

I am under the impression this amount of protein is appropriate based on my desired lean body mass. Maybe I have miscalculated?

I am 5'31/2" and have set goal weigh to 130lbs.. I was under the impression that my current weight has no play in that calculation. I am close to 50lbs. from goal and have been 'unintended maintenance' for close to 2 yrs. now.

[RebeccaLatham]

Cathy, how did you arrive at the 45g of protein? And yes, you are right that you should calculate your protein based on your goal and not your current weight.

What method or formula did you use to come up with the 45 grams?

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by clackley

After weeks of this, my weight remains stable.

[clackley]

I forget how I came to that number but it was based on my goal weight and the anticipated amount of lean body mass at that weight. I think the exact # was 48g.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by clackley

I forget how I came to that number but it was based on my goal weight and the anticipated amount of lean body mass at that weight. I think the exact # was 48g.

Well, I'll tell you how I got to my grams of protein, and then you can decide if it is a system you want to use or not.

The first thing I did was to figure out my ideal weight based on my height. I used Dr. Jan Kwasniewski's method(google)for figuring out my ideal weight. The basic premise is this: First, you figure out how many grams of protein you should be eating based on Dr. Kwasniewski's formula. Then you use these ratios to figure out how many grams of fat and grams of carbs you should be eating: For every gram of protein you eat, you should be laso eating 2.5 to 3.5 grams of fat and 0.5 grams of carbs.

PROTEIN : FAT : CARBS
1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.5

I'll use myself as an example and show you how I came up with my numbers. I am 5'3" tall, which is the same as 160 cm. To arrive at my "due body weight", I subtract 100 cm from my 160 cm, and I get 60 cm. The number 60 is now the amount of kilograms I should weigh. I decided a while back that I wanted to weigh 132 pounds with 25% body fat. And guess what! My goal weight of 132 pounds equals 60 kg, which is exactly what Dr. Kwasniewski's says I should weigh! Interesting...

He says that you should eat that same number of grams of protein each day, give or take 10%. I tried it with adding 10%, making my grams of protein 66, but I did not lose weight doing that, so now I am trying it the other way - 60g of protein minus 10%, which is 54. I am now eating 54 grams of protein per day.

Another method is to use Phinney and Volek's calculator - eat 0.6 to 1.0 gram of protein per pound of goal lean body mass. Using me again as an example, with a goal weight of 132 and a desired body fat percentage of 25, I would be 99 pounds of lean mass and 33 pounds of body fat. So I should eat between 59 and 99 grams of protein per day. As I mentioned before, eating more protein did not work for me, so I am staying at the low end.

Just for fun, I also looked up the RDA for protein for a woman. Interestingly, they do not go by height and the RDA for a woman is 46 grams of protein per day. Keep in mind that the RDA is based on the amount you need to avoid disease, not for optimal health. I think that number is pretty low, especially for a taller woman.

The chart in the new Atkins book says a woman my height should eat between 71 and 149g of protein per day. That's a pretty large range, and I can't imagine that 149g of protein per day for a little woman like me would be the right thing to do!

Summary:

54-66g - Kwasniewski
59-99g - Phinney/Volek
46g - RDA
71-149g - Atkins

I chose the first one, because I've tried eating more, and I did not lose weight. Going on the premise that I may have been eating too much protein, I'm trying the lower end.

[mom2zeke]

Thanks for this info Rebecca.

I just did Dr. Jan Kwasniewski's method and according to him my ideal weight is 145. That's not far off from my goal (150). Since I have ~120 pounds of lean body mass 150 lbs is 20% bf. I would love to be there! My protein requirement per Dr.Kwasniewski is between 60 and 72. Phinney & Volek is between 70 & 120. I've been getting around 65/day and that seems to be working so far. I did go to 110 grams last Friday and it didn't knock me out of ketosis. I think that between 60 and 70 grams is a good level of protein for me for weight loss.

[RebeccaLatham]

I'm glad it's working for you!

[svenskamae]

I know this post will sound prickly, but I'd appreciate it we could perhaps follow the YMMV rule in terms of statements about exercise ... Some of us are doing exercise that is based on weights/resistence training and getting good results and enjoying the experience, and that's great. Some of us may be doing exercise that is more traditionally classified as cardio and find that it works better and/or is preferred by us (and I'm in that second group). And the distinction between "muscle building/resistence" exercises and "cardio" exercises may be a bit arbitrary.

My standard exercises are walking--everywhere, I don't drive and normally walk around 7.5 miles a day without making any special effort--and sometmes using an elliptical machine at home. Those exercises are generally classified as cardio, not resistence training (like lifting weights)--and yet, doing them for years and years--I've managed to build up a lot of muscle. My lean body mass is 116 pounds, though I'm just 5'3''; I test as being in the top 98th percentile, in terms of women of my weight, for my leg strength; I have had people giving me a massage comment on how unusually developed my shoulder muscles are (because I sling on shoulder bags full of books or groceries and walk for miles, just to accomplish errands on foot). I push against a level of resistence when doing elliptical exercise, so there's a combination of resistence and cardio happening there.

I don't have unrealistic expectations that if I exercise a certain amount of time, I'll automatically lose a certain amount of weight, but I find on average that I do lose weight more easily when I am more active (for example, making time to do the elliptical machine, or walking 15+ rather than 7+ miles a day while on vacation). I also have a low resting pulse rate, great endurance, and feel good doing the exercise that I choose.

I don't think that we can judge what is "excessive" exercise for another person, unless we know how much that person is used to doing, and how their body is responding to that exercise (in terms of how they feel physically as well as how their weight loss is proceeding).

Stalls can happen for all sorts of reasons, and while "excessive cardio" may be at the root for some people some of the time, I wouldn't assume that is true for everyone who is doing cardio exercise and happens to be stalled. Other possible factors for me, during a recent stall that I posted about in frustration, are excessive protein (eating toward the top of the amount suggested by various formulas) and/or raised cortisol from overly long work hours and too little sleep and/or eating too little and/or my body just getting used to a new weight (at around 20% loss of my body weight, a point where many people stall until their bodies adjust).

I appreciate that the comment and advice was well-intended, and I do thank you for taking the time to post the response to me.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by hippyatheart

This morning my blood keytones for the first time! I am doing it fasting like mom2zeke.

This morning's readings:
Blood glucose 76
Blood keytones 1.4
Urine keytones in the high range (80's)

I need to go back and read what a good level is for blood keytones and to see if it is comperable to the urine level reading.

I just finished reading the Performance book by Volek and Phinney and happen to have it with me. Here's what they said about good levels for blood ketones: "a therapeutic range of blood ketone levels for an athlete [comment by svenskamae: and presumably for the rest of us] starts at 0.5 BOHB at the lower end and improves up to 3.0 millimolar. There do not appear to be any benefits in pushing blood ketone higher than 3" (p. 91). They display the "optimal ketone zone" in the form of a graph, which makes it a bit hard to assess, but I'd say their optimal zone is around 1.5ish (maybe a bit above) to 3.0.

They also say that time of day of testing affects blood ketone levels. Specifically, "In people adapted to a very low carbohydrate diet, there also appears to be a small diurnal variation in ketones with lowest levels observed in the morning after an overnight fast with levels gradually increasing over the day." (p. 94) So doing morning fasting results will apparently give you your minimal level results, so your morning 1.4 might well have been within their "ideal" range.

Thanks for posting.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by clackley

Here is what I typically shoot for although I must confess that I have been trying to keep calories closer to 1000 range and therefore fat has been under.

Calories =1,200 carb =15g (fiber 14g), fat=107g, protein=45g

Today my #'s should come in at: calories = 1196, carbs = 21g, fiber =4g, fat= 106g and protein=45g

After weeks of this, my weight remains stable.

I'm so sorry to hear that your weight remains stable on this regime. From what I have read of your posts, you have tried modifying every conceivable variable in a sustained and intelligent way. I have nothing to suggest, but you do have my sympathy and admiration for hanging in there and having done so much to educate yourself and others on this board.

[mom2zeke]

clackley (and anyone else struggling to lose while trying everything)--I'm sure it's been suggested before, but have you had your thyroid checked? I had mine checked for years and was always told I was fine. Last year my new GP discovered that my TSH was higher than it should be (but not out of range by older standards). I had further more extensive testing and my thyroid hormones were in the dumps. I've spent the last year going to 4 different doctors trying to get it all straightened out and get the correct level of hormone treatment. I got great advice in the thyroid area here on LCF!

I really do think that getting the correct level of thyroid hormone medication has made it possible for me to finally lose weight again. It's not like the weight just started falling off, I definitely have to work at it. But before I would work at it and it would go nowhere. Now I'm seeing numbers that I haven't ever reached as an adult.

[mcchimento]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

They also say that time of day of testing affects blood ketone levels. Specifically, "In people adapted to a very low carbohydrate diet, there also appears to be a small diurnal variation in ketones with lowest levels observed in the morning after an overnight fast with levels gradually increasing over the day." (p. 94) So doing morning fasting results will apparently give you your minimal level results, so your morning 1.4 might well have been within their "ideal" range.

Thanks for posting.

I just got my meter today. Glad you posted this since I wasn't sure when I should test. I am going to wait until tomorrow morning or do you think this mean I should test tonight.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by mcchimento

I just got my meter today. Glad you posted this since I wasn't sure when I should test. I am going to wait until tomorrow morning or do you think this mean I should test tonight.

I think you should test whenever it's easiest for you to do it on a regular basis. For me, that would be right after I got up. Also, if you do a fasting test upon awakening, your numbers will be more comparable to those of other people posting here. But the most important thing is probably to always do it under the same conditions, regardless of when you pick.

Good luck with your meter. I need to send off for mine, now that I've managed to read the book.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by mcchimento

I just got my meter today. Glad you posted this since I wasn't sure when I should test. I am going to wait until tomorrow morning or do you think this mean I should test tonight.

I've been testing fasted in the am. But I agree with svenskamae, test at a time that works for you. Once you've established when that is, just test at the same time for subsequent tests.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

Good luck with your meter. I need to send off for mine, now that I've managed to read the book.

What did you think of the book?

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

What did you think of the book?

I agree with you that it was more oriented toward elite/high performance athletes than I would have liked, but I found some information tucked in there to be useful, especially the chapter called "Personalization," about using a meter. I read a hardcopy with pen in hand, marking up the useful bits, so that I could easily find the relevant sections again. I hope that they do publish a version that is more geared toward non-athletes trying to lose weight.

It irritated me that they included the same high-fat recipes as in their "Art of Living" book. Sheesh! If the authors have been eating 80% fat for years, as they claim, or have putting athletes on that sort of diet for weeks at a time, surely they have figured out a fair number of recipes (or their wives have). They may not have wanted to publish recipes from other cookbooks by other authors, but one can tweak a recipe to give it some originality, and recipes can't actually be copyrighted (or they could have credited the original recipe creator).

[Tatsnook]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

You're welcome! So, in hindsight, how much protein do you think you should have been eating?

Hm... I am 5'0" and my ideal weight wouldbe 110 with maybe 20% body fat. So, (110-20%)*0.6=52.8 g
I checked my last few days and my protein consumption average 80g!

[svenskamae]

Hi, Tatsnook. As I recall, you have ordered and are awaiting the arrival of your blood ketone meter, right? Maybe you should keep to your current level of protein consumption--if that feels satisfying to you--and then test to see where you come out on the nutritional ketosis meter. If you are testing within the ideal ketone range, well, then maybe you can eat 80 grams of protein a day and stay in nutritional ketosis, so long as your carb level is low. On the other hand, if you don't get good numbers with the meter, you can try dialing down your protein amount and see how that affects your testing results. Just a suggestion ...

Most formulas about how much protein one "should" eat while doing lowcarb fit a range (for example, my range is from about 70 to about 116 grams a day). I don't really know whether eating 116 grams of protein actually takes me out of nutritional ketosis unless I test, though I have been trying to eat toward the lower end of the range. (The best that I think I can do today is 77 grams of protein, 93 grams of fat, and 26 carbs, and that's eating way more fat and way less protein than I would naturally chose...)

[hippyatheart]

I am always over my 58 grams of protein a day. I am consistantly in the 90's for my intake. How in the word do I get a lower protein amount? I am 5'3" as well with an idea weight of 132. Can someone post their sample menu for the day with low protein amounts?