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Old 09-07-2012, 09:28 AM   #1051
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Wow...this thread is active!!!! Kristin, you are doing great with your maintenance schedule and staying in the keto adapted state per Phinney/Volek. I am loving your glucose levels with the ribs (since I have lots of those in the refrig and am trying to only eat 2 instead of 5 at a time!!!!) and "excessive" protein. I think that has been my problem for over a year. Protein around 90-120 and now I've lowered to around 60 and raised my fat from 68-73% up to about 80%. Things are changing! I'm feeling better and happier and my clothes are no longer "tight", but comfy!!! Can't beat that feeling.

Today I tried that "coffee" drink someone posted with the MCT oil in it. I tried 1 TBSP in 1/2 cup with SF cookie dough and cream (Kristn, you're right...it's a yummy flavor!!) and it was delightful, so filled the rest of the cup up and added in the 2nd TSP of that oil. It doesn't taste oily at all, so a great way to get in more fat. Easy. But I also remember someone saying to "eat" with it, and I didn't...tummy wasn't happy within 15 minutes, so had 2 eggs in butter and VOILA....felt great!

Betty...I'm so glad you are also upping the fat. It sure does make a difference, doesn't it! I think I was 600 calories and 90% fat for my breakfast. Too funny! My nurse sister would croak to know that! ha ha

I opened up my ketone meter box from the Diabetes link Kristn gave. Wow...very complicated. I will have lots of reading to do before trying it out for the first time. In the meantime, I'm going to have fun with the MCT oil intake.

Re: coconut balls....there are lots of coconut macaroon recipes that are legal...some using a "bit" of protein powder to help with the fat/protein ratio...and I used to do that to "up" my protein, but now I know better. But you can easily make macaroons with just the coconut (more fiber than in the flour which is higher in carbs I believe), fats and whatever sweetener that you use (I use splenda, but many of my friends love stevia).
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:54 AM   #1052
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Originally Posted by Doggygirl View Post
The way you summarized things is my understanding too, except I'm not sure that "train" is the word I would use. It's really not about training - it's just about how we are wired. If glucose is available as fuel, that's what our bodies use. If not, our bodies use fat. There is an adaptation period where efficiency changes. At least that's the way I sort of understood it from Phinney/Volek! Thoughts?? It will be good to read everyone's interpretation!

DG

The adaptation IS training your body. There are different pathways and enzymes needed to digest fats/ptn/carbs that are genetically coded for and the cells need time to up-regulate these to enable them to produce the ATP needed to run each individual cell. It takes time for the body to change this system. It will change the enzymes/pathways needed in response to food in the diet.

What this tells me is if you are doing LC/HP/MF, the body will up-regulate pathways for protein digestion(gluconeogenesis) and down regulate carb digestion, but will not up-regulate fat metabolism. BUT, if you eat LC/MP/HF, the body will up-regulate the fat burning pathways which "trains" your body to metabolize fat(ketogenesis) and it will easier to switch to using FFA released from your fat cells once it is used to utilizing fat from dietary sources.

I think many LC people have a problem with the concept of eating a higher fat diet thinking that the body should be supplying all the fat and we don't need to be eating it. But, if you aren't eating it as a higher % of your calories, the body will not get the "hint" and switch to ketogenesis. I think the pathways are signaled from dietary input. The fat is supposed to be for emergencies and if you are eating carbs and/or protein as your main dietary sources, it will regulate to what it thinks will be in constant supply and leave the stored fat alone.

This training process will not happen overnight.(turning genes on and off)


I think I have trained my body to use protein VERY efficiently, but not so much with fat. I can use fat when needed as I have been in ketosis for 3 years with no weight loss for the last 2, but the nutritional ketosis levels are proof that the body has fully adapted to using fat as a major fuel source.

I need to down regulate gluconeogenesis and try to up-regulate ketogenesis.


Do I think all LC dieters need to be this strict? NO, but I think those who have stalled on LC may need to consider it.

Generic LC worked great for me in the past, but I think my body has decided LC is normal and the higher protein has made me very efficient at LC/HP WOE and this is why I have high FBG on LC but not on a higher carb diet. I think the gene expression for a LC/HP diet are always sitting in the background waiting to be used, but the HF pathways are not fully in use.


Sorry for the long post, but I needed to get this in writing with the hopes it will make sense and I am looking for some feedback. Thanks for reading.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:00 AM   #1053
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I whole heartedly agree and I think that is me also.....
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:02 AM   #1054
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I have two more thoughts...

Are all the people who are losing at a good rate(2+ lbs/week) actually in nutritional ketosis?

There are 2 different ketones we test for (urine vs blood). Are they used differently in the body? Do the cells "decide" which or how much they prefer?
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:08 AM   #1055
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I am experimenting with LC,MP,HF as well and reading this thread and trying to learn. I have ordered my meter as well. The fat bombs are delish and the butter balls sound very promising. Could someone post a coconut macaroon recipe that would work for us as well, or point me in the right direction? I have figured out my levels of carb, protein and fat and am on my 5 th day, so far so good. Also a type 2 diabetic so being very careful about testing blood glucose and adjusting meds.

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Old 09-07-2012, 10:10 AM   #1056
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Ahhh, finally a group that gets my love of fats!
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:24 AM   #1057
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drjlocarb--I totally agree with what you are saying. I was LC but not losing and I'm pretty sure my body is expert at gluconeogenesis after 11 years. I believe it may have been part of the reason I had such a high cortisol test (the other reason was progesterone cream). Cortisol is used in gluconeogenesis and my numbers were through the roof without any physical signs of Cushing's.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:43 AM   #1058
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Sorry for the absence last week was a bunch of disasters capped off with both my munchkins and me getting sick. I'm finally feeling better. No workouts to speak of since Sunday but I like to baby myself when I'm sick. Thus although I did keep to NK principals I didn't particularly calorie count. I also had PMS so...The important thing is that as of this morning I weigh 145. I'm not sure if I'm done or if I'm going to push for another 10. I'm 5'5" so any opinions on that score are welcome. I really have no idea what I should weigh for my height. I'm also not sure I see myself as I actually am you know? I'll post an after pic once I take one after the bloating goes away. I've been tracking my fasting and it's up a bit to the low 90's I'm assuming this is because I've upped my carbs to closer to 30. I guess I'll have to stick with the 20ish range:/ Anyway now to catch up on what you all have been up to. if I miss anything I'm sorry! 10 pages is a lot to catch up on

Kristn: Well I started trying to shed the baby weight last august and I weighed 195. I wasn't particularly successful and kept gaining and losing the same 5 lbs through feb. After that I got a hold of atkins 72 and started working out more regularly so at that point I was 185. I started NK at 56 and now I weigh 145. I think you're right although the sweet spot to lose for me seems to be 56 on protein. I get overwhelmed to the point I've taken to buying it all and then I try on at home. It's easier on me and I seem to get better clothes although there is always sticker shock at the register. He was...and its really important IMO. Also I really do not understand the obsession with shakes and bars. Don't feel bad I still get hungry too. I'm sorry about your ex and the stress. Hope it all goes in your favor since clearly he's a jerk. My Husband is anti plastic surgery but I also woudn't mind tightening the skin of my pooch. Also I'd get some fat injected back into my boobs since I miss them

Rebecca: I've had a few days where I couldn't quite get up high enough either. I think upping breakfast is a good idea.

atcgirl42: Congrats!

Mike: I didn't like my fat bombs either. I do like cream cheese clouds a whole lot though.

Shelley: I've had to make tweaks too. Your fat bombs sound good! I was thinking about trying to make stuffing from the cream cheese bread...

Paula: you're totally right about protein and stalls.

Doggygirl: Just put it past you and make better choices today. My mom's an alcoholic and I've noticed when she's forced to stop for any reason she can't stop eating sugar. She's underweight though so I never say anything. I always say I look like a carebear

Pantograph: Welcome. Sounds like I need to pick up his book.

Juliekaboolie: Welcome! I'm insulin resistant and hypothyroid. It is possible.

3kids: Good luck! I have been eating under 60 but I workout so much usually I really do not want to shed LBM. I just have grown to enjoy my workouts. For that time all I have to think about is hitting form you know? Thanks for the info about BG numbers. I've been adding some carbs back in (pushing it closer to 30) and I was worried. However if I can keep them there WAHOO

MargD: hiya!

PortCop01: Welcome!

g3rmanchik: Welcome! Also Hypo here

Amlyjo: Welcome. It's all about finding what works for you. I've had some seriously long stalls but then I tweaked things and suddenly...woosh.

Deb34: Welcome! I start off the day with bulletproof coffee and I do occasionally snak on butter

Svenskamae: That's an awesome idea.

Betty: Since I usually cook the occasion food....I'll do LC versions for me I guess. Totally taking a cheat day for my Bday though I really love LC like Kristn though so it's not such a big deal. That's awesome!

drjlocarb: Awesome post.

Buffy: Welcome.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:50 AM   #1059
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Thanks for the welcome Zyllah,
just a quick note. I am 5'6" and it said I should have a goal weight of 143lbs. But I do know my feel good weight is around 135-130lbs....hope this helps
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:01 AM   #1060
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I think the coconut thingies will work better without the cream cheese.

I'll have to try again and let you all know
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:07 AM   #1061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyllah View Post
The important thing is that as of this morning I weigh 145. I'm not sure if I'm done or if I'm going to push for another 10. I'm 5'5" so any opinions on that score are welcome. I really have no idea what I should weigh for my height. I'm also not sure I see myself as I actually am you know? I'll post an after pic once I take one after the bloating goes away.
Congrats on making it to 145 Zyllah!!! I think it's hard to figure out exactly what your goal should be. It depends on body type, how much muscle you have, bone structure, etc.

I am 5'5.5 (I used to be 5'6") and 150 is just about right for me. I would like to change a few things but those are more about body composition than about absolute weight.

If you feel pretty good you could try staying this weight for a while. If it turns out that you want to lose more that's always an option.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:12 PM   #1062
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Lots of interesting posts today and yesterday. Nice to see so many people on NK.

Here's what I consumed yesterday:
Protein: 93.3 g (18%)
Carbs: 30.4 g (5%) (8.3 g of this was fiber)
Fat: 181.6 g (76%)
Calories: 2,087 (Est. burn rate 2,818)

This morning:
Weight: 178.0 (down 1.0) (down 5 since starting NK Aug 30)
Ketones (urine): 40 mg/dl
Blood Glucose (fasting): 93

Not sure why my weight dropped a pound. I've been averaging a 700-1000 daily caloric deficit, so I'd expect about 1/4 pound, on average. Dr. Phinney says your weight can fluctuate within a +/- 1 kg (2.2 pound) range for no particular reason, so it could just as likely go up tomorrow. As long as the overall trend is down, I'm happy.

I had 2 oz of HWC and 1 Tbsp of MCT oil last night when I started to get hungry around 8 pm. Nice to have low carb/low protein foods that won't mess with ketosis.

I found some Creamy Goat Cheese at TJs yesterday that I'll try when my block of TJ's Goat Milk Cheddar is gone. I prefer goat or buffalo milk products which don't have A1 beta-casein. I wish A2 cow's milk products were available in the US. (Google "A2 milk", if you wonder why.)

My blood ketone test strips should be here any time!

Keep clam,
Terry
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:25 PM   #1063
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are clams high fat/low protein Terry?
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:31 PM   #1064
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Terry what do you eat?
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:38 PM   #1065
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Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
There are 2 different ketones we test for (urine vs blood). Are they used differently in the body? Do the cells "decide" which or how much they prefer?
[I didn't see any reply to this -- sorry if I missed it.]

I think the ketones being measured are the same, but like glucose, the amount in the urine may not correlate well to the amount in the blood, which the body tends to regulate (partly by dumping excess into the urine).

In some of the early Atkins books, he suggested using the urine strips. Now that meters are available for blood ketone measurments, Volek & Phinney recommend using them instead, since they are more representative of what we're seeking.

Jimmy Moore, in his recent "n=1" experiments, has plotted both, but there doesn't seem to be much correlation.

Too bad the blood ketone strips are so costly, especially compared to blood glucose strips or urine ketone strips.

Keep clam,
Terry

Last edited by pantograph; 09-07-2012 at 01:58 PM..
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:56 PM   #1066
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Terry what do you eat?
I did a screen capture of my ****** food for yesterday.

[IMG]http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/members/pantograph-albums-******-picture5234-******-2012-sept_06.jpg[/IMG]

Unfortunately, this is pretty fuzzy. I'll see if I can find a better way to post this in the future.

Keep clam,
Terry
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:00 PM   #1067
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Wow! I love all the back-and-forth going on!!! What a great thread!

I'm on day 2 of tracking on my HFLC plan and I actually think I feel like I have a touch of the carb flu which I find extremely interesting considering I've been doing this since January 2011!! I must've been overeating carbs/protein without realizing it especially since I wasn't tracking. Once you get used to lc'ing you just know what to eat, so maybe I was overeating on protein and it was turning into glucose Md that's why I'm experiencing the carb flu! Interesting stuff! Btw, I'm down exactly 1 lb from yesterday fwiw. . I hope you all are having a wonderful Friday! I'm off to do some grocery shopping!!!
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:06 PM   #1068
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Woo hoo juliekaboolie! Congrats on 1 pound down. You're off to a great start!
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:22 PM   #1069
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Woo hoo juliekaboolie! Congrats on 1 pound down. You're off to a great start!
THANKS!!!!!!
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:04 PM   #1070
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Originally Posted by pantograph View Post
[I didn't see any reply to this -- sorry if I missed it.]

I think the ketones being measured are the same, but like glucose, the amount in the urine may not correlate well to the amount in the blood, which the body tends to regulate (partly by dumping excess into the urine).

In some of the early Atkins books, he suggested using the urine strips. Now that meters are available for blood ketone measurements, Volek & Phinney recommend using them instead, since they are more representative of what we're seeking.

Jimmy Moore, in his recent "n=1" experiments, has plotted both, but there doesn't seem to be much correlation.

Too bad the blood ketone strips are so costly, especially compared to blood glucose strips or urine ketone strips.

Keep clam,
Terry
They DO measure 2 different ketones. The blood meters measure beta-hydroxybutyrate (B-OHB) and urine sticks measure aceto-acetate (AcAc).

The fact that they DON'T correlate is what makes me ask the question.

Last edited by drjlocarb; 09-07-2012 at 03:05 PM..
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:12 PM   #1071
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Zyllah.....love your long post. congratulations on the weightloss, and it really "reads" that you are a happy happy person (even with all the illness in the family). Love your attitude!!!!

Terry...thanks for the info on your food intake. I like the idea of the HWC and MCT oil late when hungry and not wanting a meal....and needing that additional fat.

Drjlowcarb....loved all you wrote...and I agree that the missing link for many of us now seems to be that we had too high of protein intake and too low (68% is low???) of fat! I've never done more than 20 total carbs since starting this with one exception...to try to rid myself of hot flashes by ingesting 30 grams....but it didn't help! Upping the fat and lowering the protein seems to have changed everything about how I feel.

Juliekaboolie....good going on the 1# loss!!!! I am so glad that you are having the same experience I have had with over a year of low carb, Atkins '72 and not any results that were good for me. Very frustrated until now. It seems that I'm now shrinking from the inside out. I feel different even though the scale is not changing much....but measuring tape day is Sunday morning and this week I am anxious to see the numbers.

I have been doing the ketostix and got all the instructions out on the meter/strips I got in the mail. Have to do more reading before doing this!

Question for everyone. I just had lunch with a friend whose husband is in his 70's. Goes to a cardiologist....had stents put in last year. He's also diabetic. He's unbelievably fit and bikes about 20 miles up/down hills for "fun" and he's very thin. He "used to" eat Atkins style for heart health and diabetes. And after a couple years had to have 2 stents done as his heart arteries were clogged. The cardiologist said it was all the saturated fat he was consuming so now he's not "allowed" ANY saturated fat. So, my friend sort of freaked when I told her about the MCT oil and the high fat ketogenic eating plan I was on, etc. So....anyone want to comment. I have no cancer in my family, but heart disease is all over the place on both my fathers and mothers side....everywhere. That's how I got started on Atkins to begin with! Thanks.

Sorry if I missed anyone.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:49 PM   #1072
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shelley- that sounds scary when you think about it.
maybe he was eating more than what he needed?

But are we??

I ate a lot today..pretty hungry and have some cravings. I want chocolate and ice cream and chinese food, lol.

I get extra hungry when tom is approaching

I drove right past the drugstore while i was out so I didn't get my meter
I'll get it tomorrow.

ETA- I still stuck to plan, my calories were just higher. eatin that fat!

Last edited by betty301; 09-07-2012 at 04:11 PM..
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:21 PM   #1073
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I do know that we are seeing numerous studies coming out about how dietary fat does not correlate with heart disease. I think that doctor needs to bring himself up to date on the research and also get his hands on a couple of Gary Taubes books. Here's a good link with some great readable articles. Not to mention just doing a quick google about whether or not saturated fat "clogs" our arteries. Your friend needs to know the science and not be sold a bill of good by their doctor.

How many doctors have we been to over the years dispensing bad science and especially poor nutritional advice?!
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:41 PM   #1074
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Question for everyone. I just had lunch with a friend whose husband is in his 70's. Goes to a cardiologist....had stents put in last year. He's also diabetic. He's unbelievably fit and bikes about 20 miles up/down hills for "fun" and he's very thin. He "used to" eat Atkins style for heart health and diabetes. And after a couple years had to have 2 stents done as his heart arteries were clogged. The cardiologist said it was all the saturated fat he was consuming so now he's not "allowed" ANY saturated fat. So, my friend sort of freaked when I told her about the MCT oil and the high fat ketogenic eating plan I was on, etc. So....anyone want to comment. I have no cancer in my family, but heart disease is all over the place on both my fathers and mothers side....everywhere. That's how I got started on Atkins to begin with! Thanks.
I think that a well formulated low carb diet strictly adhered to should be helpful rather than hurtful with regards to heart disease. This is not controversial here on LCF and the LC 'net, but in the real world you will run into a much different opinion.

I guess my question would be how are your numbers and risk factors? What does your doctor say? Don't take what someone else is doing as gospel for you. You really don't know anything about his very personal history or what he was actually eating day-to-day. Thin people often don't feel the need to be as strict as the rest of us. And many doctors assume that because someone has heart issues it's the saturated fat that's the problem (because that is their very strongly held belief system).
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:54 PM   #1075
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I see there is another monster thread here in the challenge area where someone is doing a "modified fat fast". I got through a lot of the thread and wondered if any of you had (I think I see some names in common).

As far as I can tell the biggest difference is lowering the protein. It looks like she and the others call it "modified" because it's higher protein than a true Fat Fast, which you would only want to stay on for a short time because of muscle loss, right? How do you know how low is too low on the protein?

I tell you my goal right now is to get this danged fat off of me sooner rather than later. That modified fat fast thing is not looking so different from what we are doing here. What am I missing?

Looks like today I will hit:
calories 2,077
net carbs 22
fat 179
protein 64

I had a really wonderful and luxurious day with all that fat, so I hope this shows up on the scale!! Wish the carbs were even lower though, but I haven't really been able to be below 20-24 at all.
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:08 PM   #1076
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Stats: 257/144.8/150
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis--Maintenance!
Start Date: August 6, 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlyjo View Post
I see there is another monster thread here in the challenge area where someone is doing a "modified fat fast". I got through a lot of the thread and wondered if any of you had (I think I see some names in common).

As far as I can tell the biggest difference is lowering the protein. It looks like she and the others call it "modified" because it's higher protein than a true Fat Fast, which you would only want to stay on for a short time because of muscle loss, right? How do you know how low is too low on the protein?
I haven't been through that thread, but it's probably very similar to what we are doing. The EFGT plan is also similar.

I think using the monitor to gauge ketosis is helpful in making sure you can get an adequate amount of protein while maintaining ketosis. This will help preserve LBM.

Quote:
I tell you my goal right now is to get this danged fat off of me sooner rather than later. That modified fat fast thing is not looking so different from what we are doing here. What am I missing?
They are very similar--follow whichever plan is working for you!


Quote:
Looks like today I will hit:
calories 2,077
net carbs 22
fat 179
protein 64

I had a really wonderful and luxurious day with all that fat, so I hope this shows up on the scale!! Wish the carbs were even lower though, but I haven't really been able to be below 20-24 at all.
I hope that this brings you success on the scale! I think your carbs look good, is there a reason you want them to be lower?
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:10 PM   #1077
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I am over there....its modified because the protein is....its mostly fat....
lc, mp, hf......kinda the same as here...hence I am over here...lololol
we just don't test....we just tweak as we go....but we have great results also. Personally I had lost 14.4lbs in about 2-3weeks. Its like a rubber band though up and down up and down...but the over all trend is down
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:11 PM   #1078
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Stats: 202/196/155
WOE: Atkins Induction
Start Date: March 1, 2013
I had hot wings for dinner. We'll see how that plays out in terms of blood glucose in a couple of hours. The carbs were still under my 20 g. for the day, but more at once than I've had for awhile.
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:32 PM   #1079
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: TX
Posts: 155
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Stats: 332/310/175
WOE: LC-HF-MP
Start Date: June 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
I hope that this brings you success on the scale! I think your carbs look good, is there a reason you want them to be lower?
Grabbing at straws I guess. Most of them come one or two at a time in sneaky little things like stevia.

I made a "milkshake" that was SO UNBELIEVABLY awesome today.

1 1/2 c unsweetened vanilla almond milk
1/2 c HWC
2 Tbsp SF vanilla Davinci syrup
tiny sprinkle of cinnamon

Heavens it was good. Like a melted vanilla milkshake. Stats:
540 cals 4 net carbs 53 fat 2 protein

It was my breakfast at 8 am and I was just getting hungry at 12!
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:33 PM   #1080
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Lewisville, TX USA
Posts: 8,765
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Stats: Type 2 Diabetic as of 6/1/08
WOE: LC/MP/HF
Start Date: Restart 9/3/2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlyjo View Post
I see there is another monster thread here in the challenge area where someone is doing a "modified fat fast". I got through a lot of the thread and wondered if any of you had (I think I see some names in common).

As far as I can tell the biggest difference is lowering the protein. It looks like she and the others call it "modified" because it's higher protein than a true Fat Fast, which you would only want to stay on for a short time because of muscle loss, right? How do you know how low is too low on the protein?

I tell you my goal right now is to get this danged fat off of me sooner rather than later. That modified fat fast thing is not looking so different from what we are doing here. What am I missing?

Looks like today I will hit:
calories 2,077
net carbs 22
fat 179
protein 64

I had a really wonderful and luxurious day with all that fat, so I hope this shows up on the scale!! Wish the carbs were even lower though, but I haven't really been able to be below 20-24 at all.
Can you give the name of the other challenge, would enjoy reading through it.
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