Nutritional Ketosis (LC/HF/MP) Challenge Anyone?

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by pantograph

I especially enjoy the excellent blog from Dr. Peter Attia , who is a San Diego physician & endurance athlete that performs quite well on NK.

I am really enjoying Peter Attia's blog. I found it interesting that he limits protein to 125g/day (although his calories are in the 4000+ range). It really made me think about how much protein is necessary.

BTW, I could be wrong, but I don't think the JUDDD diet is really a low carb or ketogenic diet. From what I've read, it just alternates low and high calorie days, without any nominal carbohydrate targets. However, I think the EFGT diet is basically a ketogenic approach.

You are right, JUDD isn't ketogenic.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by JMCM1

I can also see you who are losing on this method are exercising and I have not been exercising. So my reduced hunger and reduced calories are probably fine with where I am physically right now.

My excuse for not exercising is over, though, so back to the pool I shall go and see how that affects things.

Just for the record, I am losing and I am NOT exercising.

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

Just for the record, I am losing and I am NOT exercising.

LOL, I am not exercising either! I do think exercise that you don't enjoy is detrimental to weight loss...but exercise that is fun is good (because basically anything that is fun for you is good for weight loss).

We don't have a pool this summer...so no exercise for me. When the temps come down there are some fun activities I can do plus some resistance training in my garage.

[3Kids4me]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I am really enjoying Peter Attia's blog. I found it interesting that he limits protein to 125g/day (although his calories are in the 4000+ range). It really made me think about how much protein is necessary.

Dr. Attia.

He's no longer consuming that many calories because he's dialed back on exercise some now from what I understand. But yes, he follows Phinney/Volek's advice pretty closely from what I've seen.

[3Kids4me]

I am exercising. I notice significantly more body composition changes and losses of inches even when the scale does not move when I include regular resistance training and interval cardio. I've done it both ways and my particular metabolism just really likes me to push my muscles intensely a few times a week.

I also find that I'm much more thoughtful about what I eat and being compliant with healthy eating when I'm moving my body in healthy ways rather than being sedentary. Which I would be if I didn't plan routine exercise.

But I'm also realistic that it's 90% diet that burns the fat and the exercise is for those other reasons. And I have no plans to be an 1+ hours a day exerciser, especially after listening to the Dr. Phinney podcast!

[3Kids4me]

Here are my numbers for today, I guess about Day 4 of serious low carbing and Day 3 of no sweeteners. Scale and measuring tape aren't showing me any amazing results, but it's mid-cycle for me and that means bloat and water retention, even when I'm doing everything else right.

Calories: 1,092
Carbs: 13
Fat: 94
Protein: 50
2 hr post dinner BG: 80

I could stand to eat another meal of some sort but again, not hungry. I had two really good-sized meals today, maybe I need to plan on 3 if I'm not going to eat more than 4 oz of meat at either meal.

Ran 30 minutes this morning, that felt good. But definitely needed some extra salt today to avoid feeling lightheaded.

[JMCM1]

Rebecca said: Just for the record, I am losing and I am NOT exercising.

Originally Posted by paulabob

LOL, I am not exercising either! I do think exercise that you don't enjoy is detrimental to weight loss...but exercise that is fun is good (because basically anything that is fun for you is good for weight loss).

We don't have a pool this summer...so no exercise for me. When the temps come down there are some fun activities I can do plus some resistance training in my garage.

Well I have definitely been losing -just not quickly. I'm in good company then.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by 3Kids4me

Dr. Attia.

He's no longer consuming that many calories because he's dialed back on exercise some now from what I understand. But yes, he follows Phinney/Volek's advice pretty closely from what I've seen.

I'm making my way through his blog piecemeal which is why I probably missed the lower calories. I was quite impressed that he could get that many calories in with low protein and carbs.

I am exercising. I notice significantly more body composition changes and losses of inches even when the scale does not move when I include regular resistance training and interval cardio. I've done it both way and my particular metabolism just really likes me to push my muscles intensely a few times a week.

I also find that I'm much more thoughtful about what I eat and being compliant with healthy eating when I'm moving my body in healthy ways rather than being sedentary. Which I would be if I didn't plan routine exercise.

But I'm also realistic that it's 90% diet that burns the fat and the exercise is for those other reasons. And I have no plans to be an 1+ a day exerciser, especially after listening to the Dr. Phinney podcast!

This is 100% true for me. I love exercise but I am mindful of doing the right amount and not too much. My goal with exercise is to be energized and improve body comp. In my experience too much exercise has been detrimental to these goals and has stopped my weight loss.

[3Kids4me]

I'm finally listening to the podcast with Dr. Phinney. So much fantastic information! I'm definitely going to be more mindful about getting in more calories and protein, I've been undereating both of those and don't think there's any benefit to that, only potential LBM loss or slowed metabolism.

[miker295]

Originally Posted by pantograph

Mike - Excellent work!

Thanks Terry! I'll make those updates in the next version.

[MargD]

Originally Posted by paulabob

I have quite a bit of trouble getting enough blood (and I mean for my blood sugar meter as I have never gotten the ketone one). I've noticed it's super easy during TOM, but difficult otherwise. I wash my fingers, warm the tips up for 20 seconds or so, keep my fingers low, and squeeze, squeeze, squeeze afterwards. My lancet only has one setting though. Guess I need the thick fingertip sort. I have found like you it's better to take several pokes rather than waste a strip on too little blood. It certainly hurts enough that I think I should be bleeding really well.

I followed your suggestions and I was able to get a reading this morning. I also used my middle finger instead of my index finger, so maybe that made a difference. Thank you!

The morning of Day 1, my reading was .5. Assuming my strips are here next week, I'd like to test once a week. If not, I'll test again when they arrive.

I had no idea what to expect. I eat a mostly vegetarian diet, so my protein intake was already pretty moderate, but my fat was nowhere near high enough. I obviously need to be higher than .5 for weightloss to occur, because I definitely haven't been losing for the last several months.

I have my menu set for today and I'm really interested to see how things go.

[mom2zeke]

Good Morning Everyone! How are you all doing?

Yesterday was an interesting day. In the mid-afternoon I was suddenly ravenously hungry. I decided to eat fat and ended up eating 2 fat bombs and 4 ounces of cream cheese. I was a bit worried that I wasn't getting satiated and that I was going to overshoot all of my goals for the day if I ate my full dinner. But I ended up not being hungry for dinner! That actually almost never happens for me.

Yesterday my (maintenance) intake was:
Protein: 47.9 (10%)
Carbs: 18.4 (4%)
Fat: 179.5 (88%)
Alcohol: 0 (0%)
Calories: 1831
This morning:
Weight: 148.2 (down 1.2)
Ketones: 1.8
Blood Glucose: 83

So, low on protein but otherwise an okay day after all. Still getting good ketones and my weight is actually down. I do want to make sure that I get enough protein in the future for my body composition goals.

Have a great day everyone!

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by MargD

I followed your suggestions and I was able to get a reading this morning. I also used my middle finger instead of my index finger, so maybe that made a difference. Thank you!

I'm glad to hear that Paula's suggestions helped and you got a good reading. They would probably be a good addition to the FAQ. I know that this finger pricking is new for a lot of us! And we all want to waste as few strips as possible.

The morning of Day 1, my reading was .5. Assuming my strips are here next week, I'd like to test once a week. If not, I'll test again when they arrive.

I had no idea what to expect. I eat a mostly vegetarian diet, so my protein intake was already pretty moderate, but my fat was nowhere near high enough. I obviously need to be higher than .5 for weightloss to occur, because I definitely haven't been losing for the last several months.

I have my menu set for today and I'm really interested to see how things go.

At least you know that you're in ketosis, even if it's at the bottom of the range. Since you're doing mostly vegetarian, how low are you keeping your carbs? I know that can be an issue with the vegetarian version of LC.

Do you want to post your menu for today so we can have a look? It might be helpful for others who are trying to do this as vegetarians also. I know that is a struggle for a lot of people.

[MargD]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I'm glad to hear that Paula's suggestions helped and you got a good reading. They would probably be a good addition to the FAQ. I know that this finger pricking is new for a lot of us! And we all want to waste as few strips as possible.



At least you know that you're in ketosis, even if it's at the bottom of the range. Since you're doing mostly vegetarian, how low are you keeping your carbs? I know that can be an issue with the vegetarian version of LC.

Do you want to post your menu for today so we can have a look? It might be helpful for others who are trying to do this as vegetarians also. I know that is a struggle for a lot of people.

Before today, my net carbs have typically been in the 30-50 range, which probably accounts for my recent weight creep, but I have also been indulging in fruit this summer, which I'm sure isn't helping.

You are correct that doing Atkins as a vegetarian is challenging, but definitely not impossible. I do eat fish 1-3 times per month, but I have had a strong aversion to other meat since I was a kid, so as much as I would like to make my life easier, I just can't.

I would love to post my menu and I'm very receptive to suggestions. This is the plan for today:

Breakfast
1 T MCT Oil (from a shot glass, not cooking with it)
1 T Olive Oil
2 large eggs
1 ounce cheddar cheese

Lunch
1 Avocado
2 T light sour cream (using this up, will replace with full fat version)
1 Fat Bomb (thanks for the recipe, Rebecca!)

Snack
1/4 cup Macadamia Nuts

Dinner
1/6 of White Castle Pie - w/ground beef substitute (1/6 of the pie = 33 g fat/23 g protein/5 g net carbs)
2 T Coconut Butter

My count for the day: 166 g fat / 53.5 g protein / 15.1 net carbs

I've been taking the MCT oil since the beginning of July, I wonder if that accounts for the .5? Hmmmm.

[mom2zeke]

MargD--Thanks for sharing your menu, it looks great! And very helpful for vegetarians who are trying to make this work.

I'm sure you'll be registering more ketones before you know it.

[portcop01]

I would like to join you guys.i learning more about the higher fat!!

[pantograph]

Yesterday my food intake was:
Protein: 94.4 (19%)
Carbs: 34.7 (6%) (11 g of this was fiber)
Fat: 178.1 (75%)
Alcohol: 0 (0%)
Calories: 2096
This morning:
Weight: 179.8 (down 0.4) (down 3.2 since Aug 30, when I started NK)
Ketones (urine): 15 mg/dl
Blood Glucose: 94

Over half my fat came from 8.5 oz of organic heavy whipping cream from Trader Joes (one of the few with no carrageenan). This has only about
0.8 g of carbs and 0.6 g of protein per ounce, so it's a great way to add more fat. I put a little in my 4 egg omelet (cooked in 1 tbsp each of GF butter and virgin CO), some over raspberries, and a bunch mixed 50/50 with hot water and a tsp of unsweetened cocoa powder. (I no longer have a sweet tooth and love bitter chocolate, which the sweetness of the cream tempers a bit.) Eating all this fat totally killed my appetite!

Yesterday afternoon, my urine ketones were 80 mg/dl, which is the highest I've ever seen. Anxiously waiting for my blood ketone meter to arrive...

Keep clam,
Terry

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by portcop01

I would like to join you guys.i learning more about the higher fat!!

portcop01!

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by pantograph

Weight: 179.8 (down 0.4) (down 3.2 since Aug 30, when I started NK)

Yesterday afternoon, my urine ketones were 80 mg/dl, which is the highest I've ever seen. Anxiously waiting for my blood ketone meter to arrive...

Woo hoo! You're off to a great start.

[3Kids4me]

Got my ketone strips, went ahead and tested and I'm at 1.4, so that's pretty great. I'll just keep on doing what I'm doing, the numbers seem to be working for ketone levels.

[Buffy45]

Rebecca,
I made your fat bombs but without the almond butter, they are delish!

[shelley]

Originally Posted by portcop01

I would like to join you guys.i learning more about the higher fat!!

Welcome! I love this group!!!

Terry, I also ordered the ketone meter and strips. I got notification this morning that it's been shipped. I also ordered the "free one" and it said 2-3 weeks for processing, so when it comes, I'll have a backup meter with 1 glucose and 1 ketone strip to add. Can't wait to see where I am on the meter but am "scared" about the lancet and pricking my finger...used to do that for my hormone blood spot testing and just hated it.

Any recommendations on what finger and where on the finger to prick? I remember years ago there being a science to which one and where (other than getting the hands warm, wringing, squeezing, etc. which was mentioned earlier) I want to be prepared! ha ha (I also assume it's best to prick the non writing hand???).

[portcop01]

My bg was 114 is that good or bad?

[Doggygirl]

Originally Posted by portcop01

My bg was 114 is that good or bad?

Hi Portcop. As far as BG goes, it really depends on when you took it relative to your last meal. Fasting BG first thing in the morning needs to be below 100 to be considered "normal" on any of the lab ranges I have seen lately.

Dr. Bernstein and other diabetes experts would say that 83 is what a normal fasting blood glucose level is, period. And as it begins to creep up in our life - even while it is below 100 - that is just a sign of things moving in the bad direction.

If that reading was one or two hours post prandial (after eating) than most people would say it's fine.

Blood Sugar 101 is a really good web site to visit and learn more about blood sugar. I feel very grateful that I happened to check my BG when I got the ketone meter. I already had a BG meter but hadn't checked in a long time. Yikes. Things have changed recently as you already know from my journal!

And to the NK challenge! It's a learning experience and also a great group of folks.

I'm having a NK day here!!!

DG

[3Kids4me]

I found this post by Chris Kresser helpful when I was first starting to pay attention to my blood glucose.

http://chriskresser.com/when-your-%E...-normal-part-2

He has what the conventional numbers doctors categorize people with and then the "ideal" numbers that he encourages.

Don't miss this comment: "*If you’re following a low-carb diet, fasting blood sugars in the 90s and even low 100s may not be a problem, provided your A1c and post-meal blood sugars are within the normal range."

I've seen that information elsewhere. I know my fasted BG may be in the 90-100 range even while very low carb, but 2 hours postprandial I'm in the 80s usually.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

Hi Mike! I lurk but don't post here often...struggling with a few issues.

I think a recipe section (in the menu section) would be a great addition to your FAQ idea. There is always a problem with "WHAT THE HECK DO I EAT TO UP THE FAT?".

I have a bunch of recipes that I've been collecting to "up the fat," and I'd be happy to share them. I find that older cookbooks and British cookbooks do much better in terms of including recipes with substantial fat and ingredients like cream. This weekend I made chicken liver pate with 1 cup butter to 1 pound chicken livers, and palak paneer (Indian curried spinach with paneer cheese) with a cup of cream; both turned out well and have high ratios of fat relative to protein.

[Flavia]

drjlocarb, I up my fat with coconut oil, pecans (cause they are cheaper then macadamia nuts) or MCT oil. U can google that one...its made from coconut oil but basically more concentrated if that makes sense......it has the taste of slight butter to me....and its clear
anyways....just trying to be of help

[svenskamae]

I was away from the computer for the long weekend (which felt great) and just got caught up on reading this thread. It's good to hear how everyone is doing, and the NK FAQ sounds like a great idea!

I finally made myself read through the information about my testing meter, lancets, etc. and tried to test yesterday, but I couldn't get a valid reading. (I used up one test strip on testing the meter--it worked fine, one on getting a message of error in testing [maybe not enough blood on the strip?], and one strip on another blood test where the meter didn't seem to register anything.) I guess I have to try again--maybe next weekend, since it's hard to fit that in before work. I'll try re-reading the "Blood Sugar 101" sections on doing blood testing with a meter, to see if that helps me figure out how to do this right.

Some questions about the blood testing: Did you order a bunch of extra lancets to go with your meter? I have just a few of them, which were sent along with the meter. The directions say to replace your lancet every time you test. Do you do that, or just clean the needle with alcohol? Will the meter work right if you re-use a cleaned lancet (i.e., don't replace it between tests)? Do you need to order lancets that go with that particular meter, or are lancet needle sizes standard and other brands (available from a drugstore, say) a workable alternative to the Nova Max ones?

Also, did you find that you needed quite a lot of blood for the NK testing to work? I might need to do blood glucose testing to learn how to do this better, to avoid wasting those expensive ketosis strips, but I am worried about running out of lancet needles.

Thanks for your advice/help on doing the test right. It was a struggle to make myself go through the directions and screw up my courage to prick myself (not a fan of needles), and it's disappointing to feel like I'm still not doing it right and wasting the strips.

[mom2zeke]

3Kids4me-I'm glad to hear that you're registering in ketosis--it looks like you're on the right track.

svenskamae-I order a box of lancets when I ordered my replacement strips. They are super cheap and you could probably pick up replacement lancets at the drugstore. I have also been cleaning and re-using mine a few times without any problems. I also have to get a pretty good sized drop of blood for the ketone strips (not exactly sure how to describe it). Less is needed for the glucose strips.

It sounds like there are a lot of questions about using the meter. I haven't had any trouble so hopefully there are more experienced people to answer these questions.

We definitely need instructions for using the meters in the FAQ!

I had a really busy day at work after the holiday so I'm just catching up now.

g3rmanchik and anyone else that I missed! This is turning into quite a lively thread.

[MargD]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

Some questions about the blood testing: Did you order a bunch of extra lancets to go with your meter? I have just a few of them, which were sent along with the meter. The directions say to replace your lancet every time you test. Do you do that, or just clean the needle with alcohol? Will the meter work right if you re-use a cleaned lancet (i.e., don't replace it between tests)? Do you need to order lancets that go with that particular meter, or are lancet needle sizes standard and other brands (available from a drugstore, say) a workable alternative to the Nova Max ones?

Also, did you find that you needed quite a lot of blood for the NK testing to work? I might need to do blood glucose testing to learn how to do this better, to avoid wasting those expensive ketosis strips, but I am worried about running out of lancet needles.

I'm glad you asked about the lancets, because I'm wondering the same thing. I wish I had ordered some when I ordered my ketone strips.

As for the amount of blood, I felt that I used the same amount both times I tested (the machine counted down from 10 both times) and only one of the tests was successful.