Nutritional Ketosis (LC/HF/MP) Challenge Anyone?

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

Question about protein. Do you only count protein from animal sources which is complete protein? I ask this because nut butters, etc. have protein too, but not complete protein, right? If I reach a point where I am pushing the lower limit of my range (which I am not, YET...) would I want to make sure I achieve that lower limit from animal sources?

Ketosis reading this morning = 1.1!!! So excited to have some good news and feel like I'm "on my way" in a sense.
DG

I use an online tracker and count protein from all sources, including nutbutters and dairy products, in evaluating my protein intake. I don't think that having animal versus non-animal protein matters in terms of ketosis. Congratulations on hitting 1.1 this morning.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by paulabob

Wow, I was so hungry today! I have eaten and eaten and eaten. I'm a bit over carbs and protein, but I mostly concentrated on upping my fat. This is just a terrible TOM...eyelids pale, really anemic right now (but at least my mood is great).

Tomorrow should be a better day. I find my Sunday sermon's soothing to the soul. LOL, though, communion makes my tummy gurgle.

I hope that today is going better for you! I really do hate that ravenous feeling that you can never be satiated. Good for you for upping fat in the face of hunger.

Originally Posted by kilogirl78

Down to 172.8 today. Yay! I haven't seen that number in years. Ketosis has been 1.1 yesterday and today. I read that before you wake up your body releases glucose so I have been testing at night. I also finally stopped being lazy and set my protein limit to 50 grams. Wow.... that is a challenge. Definately only eating meat for two meals. I read today that after a certain point your body turns extra protein to glucose. I also found that for me coconut oil is like eating two bran muffins.

I'm off to go listen to that podcast now. It seems every day I learn something new.

Woo Hoo kilogirl78! Limiting protein is a challenge. Is the 50 grams based on your goal weight/lbm?

Buffy45

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

Me too!! It's interesting to actually have a way to KNOW about ketosis status rather than either guessing or relying in unreliable stix.

I love it! If the ketones strips were cheaper I would definitely test more often. Perhaps even throughout the day for a few days to see how ketosis changes during the day.

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

Question about protein. Do you only count protein from animal sources which is complete protein? I ask this because nut butters, etc. have protein too, but not complete protein, right? If I reach a point where I am pushing the lower limit of my range (which I am not, YET...) would I want to make sure I achieve that lower limit from animal sources?

I count all protein, not just from animal sources. I think the complete protein thing only matters if you're a vegetarian and not eating any complete protein at all.

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

Ketosis reading this morning = 1.1!!! So excited to have some good news and feel like I'm "on my way" in a sense.

That's great news!

[mom2zeke]

Good morning everyone! I'm down .6 this morning to 151.4! Loving this new scale. I'm so close I can taste goal. I'm trying not to get impatient right now, but it's hard.

Had a great dinner out with some friends last night. No alcohol this weekend which I believe has helped nudge the scale down.

How is everyone else doing??

[mom2zeke]

I just finished the Phinney interview and he did talk about leptin (after someone asked about Kruse's leptin reset). He said that they measured leptin in their studies and that a well formulated LC diet resulted in greater leptin sensitivity.

After following along with the giant leptin reset thread on Mark's Daily Apple last year I had no results at all. Phinney was dismissive of the plan too, saying that he hadn't seen any published results of a study of the plan.

[mom2zeke]

Jimmy posted a list of the salient points of the interview on his regular blog (it's a long list). He also posted a copy of the protein chart from A New Atkins for a New You. According to that chart I may be undereating protein.

I'm having great scale success, but I wonder if I'm risking losing muscle mass. I might try slightly upping protein this week and testing for ketosis. I hate to make changes when things seem to be working so well...

[clackley]

I am still unclear about the formula for calculating protein needs. I was under the impression that it was .6g per ideal body weight in lbs. but am quite certain I heard Phinney say something different when roughly calculating for a woman at about the 35min. mark in the pod cast and it is not referenced in Jimmy`s list. I will go back and see if I can find it unless someone can repeat it for me...?

The chart seems pretty high for protein even at the lowest figure never mind the high end - I would be under-consuming as well.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by clackley

I am still unclear about the formula for calculating protein needs. I was under the impression that it was .6g per ideal body weight in lbs. but am quite certain I heard Phinney say something different when roughly calculating for a woman at about the 35min. mark in the pod cast and it is not referenced in Jimmy`s list. I will go back and see if I can find it unless someone can repeat it for me...?

The chart seems pretty high for protein even at the lowest figure never mind the high end - I would be under-consuming as well.

In The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance it is .6-1 grams of protein per pound of goal or ideal lean body mass.

I agree. The chart seems high for protein.

[clackley]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

In The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance it is .6-1 grams of protein per pound of goal or ideal lean body mass.

I agree. The chart seems high for protein.

Oh good, then I have it right. Thank you!! I have read so much on the topic over the past year or 2 that my head spins sometimes.

I tried to post on Jimmy's blog in the comments to a poster that could have been me and her frustration over the calories in/out thing but couldn't get it to post????

Anyway, what I did hear on a couple of occasions is that under-consuming can be counterproductive in that it down regulates metabolism. He has clinical practice and sited that and I am feeling encouraged because of that. I have been keeping calories pretty low for a long time now in the effort to get weight loss moving. The more severely I restrict the more it seems that I gain or not lose. I started keeping a daily log of my food back in April and at that time I weighed about 3 to 4 lbs. less than I do now and I was up a couple of more lbs. not too long ago until I tightened up on my protein intake.

So all that to say, I still feel hopeful.

[Doggygirl]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

I don't think that having animal versus non-animal protein matters in terms of ketosis.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter in terms of ketosis. I was wondering more about overall health. I am not pushing the lower end of the ranges on protein yet, but I think if/when I do I might want to figure out how to make sure I am meeting my minimum in animal protein and not consider plant based proteins in that number? I don't know - thoughts on that?

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

If the ketones strips were cheaper I would definitely test more often. Perhaps even throughout the day for a few days to see how ketosis changes during the day.

I was thinking of this while on my walk this morning - wondering what time of day everyone tests. Does Phinney recommend any particular time? So many questions!

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I'm down .6 this morning to 151.4! Loving this new scale. I'm so close I can taste goal. I'm

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

He said that they measured leptin in their studies and that a well formulated LC diet resulted in greater leptin sensitivity.

After following along with the giant leptin reset thread on Mark's Daily Apple last year I had no results at all. Phinney was dismissive of the plan too, saying that he hadn't seen any published results of a study of the plan.

I have often been curious about leptin and it's role in all this. I have not been convinced about the Kruse protocol. Mark from MDA commented once - something to the effect - that anything over 30g in protein at a meal (I think that's the number he used) is going to get partially converted to glucose anyway. That has always been my ????? about the whole "75g protein at breakfast" thing. Interesting to hear that you experienced that first hand, and look at you now!!!!!

Cathy - I am SO glad you are feeling hopeful. This stuff can feel positively (batcrapcrazy!) at times!

Having a good day OP so far!

DG

[JMCM1]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

In The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance it is .6-1 grams of protein per pound of goal or ideal lean body mass.

I agree. The chart seems high for protein.

Agree. It was too high for protein from what we now understand.

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

After following along with the giant leptin reset thread on Mark's Daily Apple last year I had no results at all. Phinney was dismissive of the plan too, saying that he hadn't seen any published results of a study of the plan.

I tried it several times. It's true I was completely stuffed after breakfast (but then, who wouldn't be?). I also gained weight on it. His answer to anyone who gained weight was their hormones must be out of whack. Well, something was definitely out of whack and I'm not pinning it on my hormones. The fact was the only ones who gained weight were women...tells you something right there!

If breakfast could have been my only meal of the day...maybe I could have lost weight on it. But I was hungry enough to still need some lunch and dinner. It was perhaps the craziest diet I ever tried...a massive breakfast just wasn't the key to weight loss for me.

[Doggygirl]

Speaking of breakfast.....

I am often not hungry first thing in the morning. I spent many years of my life being a notorious breakfast skipper and until I turned 40 I was pretty weight stable vacilating about 10 pounds up and down mainly related to activity levels. (not related to attempting weight loss)

After reading all the leptin stuff a couple years ago I have been trying to get on the "regular breakfast" bandwagon. Is it really important to eat breakfast every day? Sometimes I think I'm HUNGRIER if I start the eating too early in the day. (maybe that's my imagination)

Just curious what everyone here eats for breakfast and whether you try to eat within a certain time of getting up.

DG

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

After reading all the leptin stuff a couple years ago I have been trying to get on the "regular breakfast" bandwagon. Is it really important to eat breakfast every day? Sometimes I think I'm HUNGRIER if I start the eating too early in the day. (maybe that's my imagination)
DG

That's true for me too about the hunger so I usually skip breakfast. I thought it was because of my hypoglycemia. If I'm hungry for lunch, I just add some heavy cream to my drink and I'm good to go.

[Doggygirl]

That's interesting Paula. I think I'm going to try just going with the flow in the mornings and see how that feels. For the next couple of days, I will have the option of cooking breakfast later in the morning going without all the way until lunch is a problem. Thanks.

DG

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

I was thinking of this while on my walk this morning - wondering what time of day everyone tests. Does Phinney recommend any particular time? So many questions!

I have been testing first thing am. That's supposed to be the time of day where ketones are the lowest. I figure that if I'm in ketosis at that time then I'm pretty much guaranteed to be in ketosis the rest of the day if I stay on plan.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

Just curious what everyone here eats for breakfast and whether you try to eat within a certain time of getting up.

DG

I always eat breakfast, usually within 1/2 hour of getting up. I am out the door at 6:30 so it's pretty much a rush out the door in the morning.

My breakfast these days is a large cup of coffee with 2 tbs coconut cream, 2 eggs scrambled, 2 tbs sour cream, and 2 tbs salsa.

I need my coffee in the morning and if I don't eat breakfast I get shaky and cranky by midmorning.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by clackley

Anyway, what I did hear on a couple of occasions is that under-consuming can be counterproductive in that it down regulates metabolism. He has clinical practice and sited that and I am feeling encouraged because of that. I have been keeping calories pretty low for a long time now in the effort to get weight loss moving. The more severely I restrict the more it seems that I gain or not lose. I started keeping a daily log of my food back in April and at that time I weighed about 3 to 4 lbs. less than I do now and I was up a couple of more lbs. not too long ago until I tightened up on my protein intake.

So all that to say, I still feel hopeful.

Yes, Dr. Phinney stressed that undereating (and overexercising) were counter productive. But also that you have to stay in a calorie deficit. I guess everyone must have a sweet spot where they can lose without reducing their metabolism so much that weight loss stalls.

I'm glad that you still feel hopeful! Are you going to make any specific changes based on the podcast?

[mom2zeke]

Went shopping at Goodwill this afternoon and I'm now an 8-10 rather than a 10-12! Got 4 pairs of work slacks--half were size 10 and half were size 8. A lot of the slacks I tried on in 10s were just too big. I also bought some new shorts in 10s and 8s and new size m pajama bottoms as the old ones were starting to fall down. 11 years ago I was wearing a size 22. 6 months ago I was wearing a 12-14.

I can't ever remember fitting into a size 8 in my adult life.

I'm very happy with all of this, but starting to get concerned about maintaining this lower weight. I have boxed up all of my 12s and moved the too large hanging clothes to the side of the closet. I'm not ready to get rid of stuff at this point. I will have to maintain for a while before I believe that it's permanent.

[Doggygirl]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

11 years ago I was wearing a size 22. 6 months ago I was wearing a 12-14.

I can't ever remember fitting into a size 8 in my adult life.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! What an inspiration!

Thanks for your feedback on time of day for testing and also breakfast.

FWIW, I did test ketones again this afternoon since I was already pricking for BG. It was 3PM - prior meal was at noon. Best news all day on BG - it was under 100. Ketones only .3 though, despite being 1.1 in the AM. I'm not going to draw any conclusions this early in the testing process, but figured I would throw it out there. And now I feel sorta guilty for burning an extra $2 strip today! (I'll get over it I think)

I had urges to eat more (not necessarily sugarcarbies - just "more") this afternoon but saw that BG meter screen in my mind, and did not. I really want to get to 3 (or 2) squares a day and that's it for my eating. I'm done for the day and OP. Whew.

Thanks again to all for sharing your experience and your hope! Kristn I think you will maintain beautifully if you keep doing what you are doing. My mistake was drifting away from my support system and gradually, my plan. That "drift" is what killed me. No matter where I end up weight wise this time, I know I can never afford to take my eye off the ball if I want to be the healthiest possible me. It just doesn't come "naturally" to me and I'm learning to accept that I will always have to work at it.

DG

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by Doggygirl

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! What an inspiration!

Thanks!

FWIW, I did test ketones again this afternoon since I was already pricking for BG. It was 3PM - prior meal was at noon. Best news all day on BG - it was under 100. Ketones only .3 though, despite being 1.1 in the AM. I'm not going to draw any conclusions this early in the testing process, but figured I would throw it out there. And now I feel sorta guilty for burning an extra $2 strip today! (I'll get over it I think)

I wouldn't feel guilty--this is all a grand n=1 experiment. I think it's interesting that your ketones were down in the afternoon. What did you have for lunch?

I had urges to eat more (not necessarily sugarcarbies - just "more") this afternoon but saw that BG meter screen in my mind, and did not. I really want to get to 3 (or 2) squares a day and that's it for my eating. I'm done for the day and OP. Whew.

Good job! I have spent probably over a year training myself to only eat 3 meals a day. It was pretty tricky in the beginning, but after a while it really does become a habit that's not too difficult. You just have to stick with it long enough to make it a habit.

Thanks again to all for sharing your experience and your hope! Kristn I think you will maintain beautifully if you keep doing what you are doing. My mistake was drifting away from my support system and gradually, my plan. That "drift" is what killed me. No matter where I end up weight wise this time, I know I can never afford to take my eye off the ball if I want to be the healthiest possible me. It just doesn't come "naturally" to me and I'm learning to accept that I will always have to work at it.

DG

Thank you! I plan to keep doing what I'm doing increasing things gradually. I do think that the meter is going to be a tremendous help getting just the right mix of carbs, protein, and fat.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Jimmy posted a list of the salient points of the interview on his regular blog (it's a long list). He also posted a copy of the protein chart from A New Atkins for a New You. According to that chart I may be undereating protein.

I'm having great scale success, but I wonder if I'm risking losing muscle mass. I might try slightly upping protein this week and testing for ketosis. I hate to make changes when things seem to be working so well...

The Atkins protein needs are very high compared to what Phinney/Volek say. According to Atkins, I should be eating no less than 71g of protein per day. According to Phinney/Volek, I should be eating no less than 57g per day. That is quite a difference, in my opinion. I'm sticking with Phinney/Volek.

I am eating less than Atkins says to, and I am gaining muscle mass, not losing it.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by clackley

I am still unclear about the formula for calculating protein needs. I was under the impression that it was .6g per ideal body weight in lbs. but am quite certain I heard Phinney say something different when roughly calculating for a woman at about the 35min. mark in the pod cast and it is not referenced in Jimmy`s list. I will go back and see if I can find it unless someone can repeat it for me...?

The chart seems pretty high for protein even at the lowest figure never mind the high end - I would be under-consuming as well.

It is between 0.6g and 1.0g per each pound of LEAN BODY MASS, not total body pounds.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I can't ever remember fitting into a size 8 in my adult life.

I remember that day,too. It was a great day. I told a total stranger in the fitting room about it.

But you know which day was even better? The day I bought a size 6. I tried them on this morning for fun, and they are comfortable again. A few months ago, the button in the front was inches apart.

[clackley]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

It is between 0.6g and 1.0g per each pound of LEAN BODY MASS, not total body pounds.

current or at ideal weight and how does one determine lean body mass?

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by clackley

current or at ideal weight and how does one determine lean body mass?

I use ideal lean body mass pounds, because that is what you are trying to get down to.

Not sure if that is correct, but that's what I do.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

The Atkins protein needs are very high compared to what Phinney/Volek say. According to Atkins, I should be eating no less than 71g of protein per day. According to Phinney/Volek, I should be eating no less than 57g per day. That is quite a difference, in my opinion. I'm sticking with Phinney/Volek.

I am eating less than Atkins says to, and I am gaining muscle mass, not losing it.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Well, Phinney/Vokek wrote the Atkins book and Stephen Phinney referred to that chart in the podcast! I guess I'll wait until I hit goal to start messing with protein.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Well, Phinney/Vokek wrote the Atkins book and Stephen Phinney referred to that chart in the podcast! I guess I'll wait until I hit goal to start messing with protein.

Me, too!

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by clackley

current or at ideal weight and how does one determine lean body mass?

Goal or ideal weight. I would use your goal weight and goal body fat% to calculate goal lean body mass.

My goal is 150 with 25% BF. So 150*.75=112.5 of goal lean body mass.

112.5*.6=67.2 grams of protein/day.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

I remember that day,too. It was a great day. I told a total stranger in the fitting room about it.

But you know which day was even better? The day I bought a size 6. I tried them on this morning for fun, and they are comfortable again. A few months ago, the button in the front was inches apart.

Congrats on the 6's fitting again!

I don't think that I'll ever see a 6. I have a pretty large frame and carry a lot of muscle. I'm really happy with an 8! My goal size was 10.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I'm really happy with an 8! My goal size was 10.

That's fantastic! My goal was an 8, and I now have a pair of slacks and a pair of shorts that are 6s. I never thought I'd see the day.