Nutritional Ketosis (LC/HF/MP) Challenge Anyone?

[Alessandre]

Thanks for the replies.

I think I was unclear as I ran off to watch the Olympics. Sorry! I know I didn't get adequate protein based on Phinney and Volek's and others' calculations. Based on that, I also know gluconeogenesis isn't contributing to the problem. As it can't be the protein, there has to be some hidden source of carbs in my diet.

Reviewing my food intake, the number of carbs per day was easily less than 20 gm, which The only factor I haven't considered is the Splenda. I drink a lot of Splenda-sweetened iced tea each day. I use the granulated Splenda, which has more maltodextrin than the in the individual packets.

I'm now drinking Crystal Light, which most likely has much less maltodextrin than the granulated Splenda: Maltodextrin is added to the Splenda as a filler so it measures the same as sugar, but that isn't necessary with Crystal Light (or the packaged Splenda). I'll retest tonight and see if there's a difference.

If it isn't the Splenda, I'll have to look around to find another explanation. I have consistently kept my carbs below 20 gm/day. And most days my protein is below the level suggested by Phinney and Volek (I'm working on increasing my intake). I'll post here with my results.

Thanks again, and hope everyone is having a great day!

[mom2zeke]

That must be so frustrating Alessandre!

I searched around for svenskemae's list and found it on another thread:

Originally Posted by svenskamae

The factors that Phinney and Volek specify as affecting one's showing up as being in ketosis (via the blood meter) are:
1) limiting carbs
2) limiting protein
3) time of day of testing (lowest results are early in the morning)
4) exercise
5) Type of fat eaten--with ketosis encouraged by fats that the body doesn't store, such as coconut oil

You could try increasing MCTs like coconut oil to see if that makes a difference. I use coconut cream in my coffee, coconut oil to fry my eggs in the morning, and a coconut oil/olive oil combo for making mayo.

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

If it were me, I would test at least once before you enter ketosis, so that you something to compare it to. I did not get my strips until I had been eating this way for several days, and I wished I had gotten them sooner so that I would see if eating this way made any improvement in my ketone levels.

The first time I tested, it was 3.1, in the morning before eating. Since then, my average has been 2.2. I'm really sorry I don't know what it was before I changed my eating pattern.

My only choice was to put off making the eating change until after the strips arrived, but I was just to anxious to start losing weight!

I agree that it would have been good to get a baseline! I was also firmly in ketosis by the time I started testing.

[Jimtoslim]

It seems takes me a long time to get into nutritional ketosis, almost two weeks of induction. Not sure what kicked me out last time, but increasing fat and decreasing protein seems to work. (I am always suspect of those fresh made-in-store sausages.)

There is a big difference in my blood ketone level from the morning to mid day, as per Phinney and Volek. I was 1.1 today, which is my highest morning reading yet. Usually around 09 after fasting.

The last few nights I have not slept that long, seem to wake up after about 6 hours. It seems to have pushed up my fasting glucose levels in the morning as well.

I am off to the lake for our annual two weeks, where temptation is everywhere. Waffles in the morning has become a tradition. I always make them, but never eat them. Then the fresh picked corn, tortilla chips with salsa, pies and ice cream are always around. And did I mention beer? Worse than getting through Christmas! It's amazing how much those teenagers can push back. Dinner is fine, always protein veggies and salad.

The family will look at me funny if I put butter on the veggies. That might be my mark of defiance!

[Alessandre]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Ugh. Serious PMS yesterday--I wish TOM would start again already! I was ravenous when I got home from work yesterday and ate a lot more than I had planned. I ended up eating 91 grams of protein, 20 grams of carbs, and 165 grams of fat for the day. Protein and fat were high for me. I tested for blood glucose and ketones this morning to see how I was effected.

Ketones: 1.8
Glucose: 81

So my little protein fest didn't kick me out of ketosis. I am off the scale for about the next week until TOM subsides. It's too volatile and will make me cranky. I'm just going to stay on the plan without worrying about the scale for now.

That is great that you didn't get out of ketosis! And good idea about the scale. There are times (and TOMs) that I just have to keep away from the thing. I hope you are feeling better today.

Thanks for reply RE ketosis. I already cook primarily with coconut oil. I exercise in the morning and test in the evening. If it is not the Splenda, I'm a bit stumped.

Type of fat eaten--with ketosis encouraged by fats that the body doesn't store, such as coconut oil

To be clear, as this seems like a very science-based crowd, the body will store coconut oil if you eat enough of it. The advantage of mcts is that they can skip being put into chylomicrons, the lipoprotein particles that deliver lipids from the intestines for use in the rest of the body. Instead, mwts can get absorbed directly from the intestines. The guess is that this allows them to be used more readily, resulting in less being stored in fat cells. But if enough is ingested, you will have more than the body can use and the excess will be stored.

Here's a free, full-text article that discusses this: Weight-Loss Diet that Includes Consumption of Medium-Chain Triglyceride Oil Leads to a Greater Rate of Weight and Fat Mass Loss than does Olive Oil, M. St. Onge and A. Bosarge, Am J Clin Nutr March 2008 vol. 87 no. 3 621-626.

HTH.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

Protein and fat were high for me. I tested for blood glucose and ketones this morning to see how I was effected.

Ketones: 1.8
Glucose: 81

So my little protein fest didn't kick me out of ketosis.

Whew!

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by Alessandre

Thanks for the replies.

I think I was unclear as I ran off to watch the Olympics. Sorry! I know I didn't get adequate protein based on Phinney and Volek's and others' calculations. Based on that, I also know gluconeogenesis isn't contributing to the problem. As it can't be the protein, there has to be some hidden source of carbs in my diet.

Reviewing my food intake, the number of carbs per day was easily less than 20 gm, which The only factor I haven't considered is the Splenda. I drink a lot of Splenda-sweetened iced tea each day. I use the granulated Splenda, which has more maltodextrin than the in the individual packets.

I'm now drinking Crystal Light, which most likely has much less maltodextrin than the granulated Splenda: Maltodextrin is added to the Splenda as a filler so it measures the same as sugar, but that isn't necessary with Crystal Light (or the packaged Splenda). I'll retest tonight and see if there's a difference.

If it isn't the Splenda, I'll have to look around to find another explanation. I have consistently kept my carbs below 20 gm/day. And most days my protein is below the level suggested by Phinney and Volek (I'm working on increasing my intake). I'll post here with my results.

Thanks again, and hope everyone is having a great day!

How about getting off the sweetened drinks and just drink water? I know it's an adjustment, but those drinks are filled with chemicals that your body doesn't need and they could be harming you.

Having a sweet drink now and then should not be a problem, but you say that you drink a lot every day.

There are some that say that drinking large quantities of artificially sweetened drinks may cause glucose problems. Not sure if that is true, but if you are having problems, that is the first thing I would try.

What do you think?

[RebeccaLatham]

Same weight and inches this morning. I went to bed late and woke up with a headache. I need to start getting to bed earlier, like I used to.

Here is a question I will just throw out there: If your glucose is good and your ketones are good, how can improving sleep improve losing?

[paulabob]

I know all the hormone levels are changed by inadequate sleep, and you are hungrier when sleep deprived. I guess your body interprets inadequate sleep as stress? Stress raises cortisol. I understand melatonin, prolactin, and other hormones are modified by good or not good sleep.

My sleep always got trashed by the hcg diet. My body interpreted starving as stress bigtime!

I'm still a bad sleeper...wake up at 5 am and can't go back to sleep half the time. It's always a struggle on those days not to overeat cause I really am hungrier. If I can go back to sleep though, I'm fine.

[Alessandre]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

How about getting off the sweetened drinks and just drink water? I know it's an adjustment, but those drinks are filled with chemicals that your body doesn't need and they could be harming you.

Having a sweet drink now and then should not be a problem, but you say that you drink a lot every day.

There are some that say that drinking large quantities of artificially sweetened drinks may cause glucose problems. Not sure if that is true, but if you are having problems, that is the first thing I would try.

What do you think?

I don't think I would drink enough water while in ketosis if I switched to plain water. Given the increased need for fluids in ketosis, this would be a problem.
I will, however, try to add more plain water into my day. Thanks for the suggestion!

In terms of artificial sweeteners, all the studies I have seen find no change in blood glucose and insulin levels with sucralose. Phinney, Volek, and Attia have said the same. The problem with Splenda is that it is sucralose plus other stuff, including maltodextrin as a filler. Maltodextrin is, unfortunately, a form of sugar. The liquid sucralose doesn't contain any maltodextrin as it doesn't need a filler for measuring purposes.

Aside from the maltodextrin, I don't see a problem with Splenda. Yes, it contains a lot of chemicals, but everything contains chemicals, from water (hydrogen and oxygen) to fat (carbon and hydrogen). In terms of a danger of manufactured/"artificial" aspect of it, I guess I don't worry about it. Given the wide potential uses and consumption levels, sucralose has and continues to be rigorously tested for safety, both in the longer- and short-term. If you go into Google Scholar, for example, you can search "sucralose safety", refine your search from there, and pull up hundreds of articles. I haven't seen one that shows any safety issues with it, aside from issues like a migraine trigger.
In contrast, the stuff I have seen on the web warning against it never has any solid evidence to back it up.

So for me, at the moment, it is a balancing of risk: I have stopped drinking the Splenda-sweetened tea and will recheck my ketone level tonight. I am, however, drinking Crystal Light, which has less maltodextrin. I will try to add more plain water, but I don't want to get insufficient amounts of fluid, as this poses a real risk while in ketosis due to great fluid needs and increased fluid losses.

I'll keep my fingers crossed until I recheck and let you all know. Thanks!

[Alessandre]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

Same weight and inches this morning. I went to bed late and woke up with a headache. I need to start getting to bed earlier, like I used to.

Here is a question I will just throw out there: If your glucose is good and your ketones are good, how can improving sleep improve losing?

There have been some studies showing that leptin levels decrease and cortisol levels increase with a lack of sleep. There are also have been studies that show that obese individuals generally get poorer quality and duration of sleep that normal weight folks. It seems like there is a potential for a vicious circle involving sleep and weight.

But I'm in the same situation: I keep telling my husband that we need to go to bed earlier, but we almost never do. That kid-free time at night goes too quickly!

[RebeccaLatham]

About sleep...

But if your glucose is good and your ketones are good, how is cortisol or stress affecting weight loss?

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by Alessandre

I don't think I would drink enough water while in ketosis if I switched to plain water. Given the increased need for fluids in ketosis, this would be a problem.
I will, however, try to add more plain water into my day. Thanks for the suggestion!

I did not think I could do it, either, but I did it by just doing it. What I did was to set my little timer for an hour and a half, and when it went off, I would down 8 oz. of water, like I was taking medicine. After a while, my taste adjusted and I do not desire sweetened drinks any more.

I think the closer we get to just eating real food and drinking real water (like our hunter/gatherer ancestors did), the better off we will be.

[Alessandre]

If you are not getting enough sleep, you could be decreasing your leptin levels. Decreased leptin can cause increased appetite. You also could be increasing your cortisol levels. Higher levels of cortisol has several possible effects, including stimulating gluconeogenesis (the pathway by which amino acids from proteins and other substances are converted into glucose - this is the danger of too much protein in terms of ketosis). The effect of high cortisol on fat is more controversial and mixed, with the potential to increase fat burning.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by Alessandre

If you are not getting enough sleep, you could be decreasing your leptin levels. Decreased leptin can cause increased appetite. You also could be increasing your cortisol levels. Higher levels of cortisol has several possible effects, including stimulating gluconeogenesis (the pathway by which amino acids from proteins and other substances are converted into glucose - this is the danger of too much protein in terms of ketosis). The effect of high cortisol on fat is more controversial and mixed, with the potential to increase fat burning.

Okay, this touches on my question...

First of all, my lack of sleep is not affecting my appetite. Even if it was, I eat what I decide ahead of time to eat and I stick to it. Even if my appetite was increased, it would not affect what I am eating.

And if I am increasing cortisol and stimulating gluconeogenesis, then why would it not show up as higher blood glucose or lower blood ketones?

[Mobear]

Alessandre You might want to try adding some Mio to your plain water. It is sweetened with liquid sucralose and is sold as a liquid in a little squirt bottle. I used to use the powdered drink mixes but gave them up because of the maltodextrin. Anyway I really like Mio Pomegranit/Berry, Peach Tea, Strawberry/Watermelon and will try the Cherry if I ever find it.

Just a thought! I can't drink as much plain water as I need so this helps.

[mom2zeke]

Interesting discussion about cortisol and how it effects weight. I don't have any answers, but I love the information that you all have!

When I was tested for everything under the sun earlier this year I did have high cortisol. Most people with high cortisol have obvious physical symptoms which I don't have. I had saliva, urine, and blood samples taken. They did not all correspond perfectly and my new endo wasn't concerned. My naturopath took me off of progesterone cream (which can cause high cortisol) and has me taking Seriphos, DHEA, and DIM (for excess estrogen).

I now think that the combo of gluconeogenesis (I was eating pretty high protein at the time) and the progesterone cream were part of the high cortisol problem.

I have actually been thinking a lot about the interplay of high-protein and cortisol/thyroid issues. A lot of people find that their T3 downregulates when they eat a low-carb diet. But now I wonder if it has more to do with protein than carbs. Lately I've read that T3 is inversely related to protein intake and cortisol, so lower protein means higher T3. Could this be because of cortisol and its role in gluconeogenesis?

This could relate to Rebecca's question about how high cortisol could effect weigh-loss without actually eating more. Low T3 could make it harder for you to lose weight. I don't think this would show up on ketones or blood glucose.

Anyway, this is all conjecture and thinking out loud.

[Alessandre]

Originally Posted by Mobear

Alessandre You might want to try adding some Mio to your plain water. It is sweetened with liquid sucralose and is sold as a liquid in a little squirt bottle. I used to use the powdered drink mixes but gave them up because of the maltodextrin. Anyway I really like Mio Pomegranit/Berry, Peach Tea, Strawberry/Watermelon and will try the Cherry if I ever find it.

Just a thought! I can't drink as much plain water as I need so this helps.

Thanks very much! I have seen that advertised but never looked into it. I will give it a try!

[Alessandre]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

Okay, this touches on my question...

First of all, my lack of sleep is not affecting my appetite. Even if it was, I eat what I decide ahead of time to eat and I stick to it. Even if my appetite was increased, it would not affect what I am eating.

And if I am increasing cortisol and stimulating gluconeogenesis, then why would it not show up as higher blood glucose or lower blood ketones?

I would think that the most concrete effect would be the increased leptin, resulting in an increased appetite. If that isn't an issue, then I agree: I don't think there would be an effect that would occur without affecting ketosis or glucose levels.

[paulabob]

Originally Posted by RebeccaLatham

First of all, my lack of sleep is not affecting my appetite. Even if it was, I eat what I decide ahead of time to eat and I stick to it. Even if my appetite was increased, it would not affect what I am eating.

Perhaps you need less sleep than typical folks, or less sleep than at another period in your life?

I know when my chronic fatigue syndrome was bad...12 hours a day wasn't enough. And when it's good...7 hours is perfect. It's quite a personal range but I think good health probably means less sleep needed?

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

I now think that the combo of gluconeogenesis (I was eating pretty high protein at the time) and the progesterone cream were part of the high cortisol problem.

I have actually been thinking a lot about the interplay of high-protein and cortisol/thyroid issues. A lot of people find that their T3 downregulates when they eat a low-carb diet. But now I wonder if it has more to do with protein than carbs. Lately I've read that T3 is inversely related to protein intake and cortisol, so lower protein means higher T3. Could this be because of cortisol and its role in gluconeogenesis?.

Wow, interesting thoughts! I've worried if I should up carbs due to this T3 issue...and have tended more towards the Optimal Diet (25-40 carbs for me) rather than nutritional ketosis. However, even with good fasting glucose, I am a messed up person. I have inherited hypoglycemia/tachycardia and excess carbs are just never good for me. The highs are followed by the inevitable dip in blood sugar.

I wish I could afford testing and see my reverse T3 levels right now versus 6 months ago....

[mom2zeke]

Originally Posted by paulabob

Perhaps you need less sleep than typical folks, or less sleep than at another period in your life?

I know when my chronic fatigue syndrome was bad...12 hours a day wasn't enough. And when it's good...7 hours is perfect. It's quite a personal range but I think good health probably means less sleep needed?

It's true that it's variable. I am very committed to 8 hours a night and guard it like a hawk. We have installed blackout curtains and worked to make our bedroom very dark (important for the short nights in the PNW). My husband does not need the full 8 hours and usually comes to bed after me. But the dark room has done wonders for both of our sleep.

Wow, interesting thoughts! I've worried if I should up carbs due to this T3 issue...and have tended more towards the Optimal Diet (25-40 carbs for me) rather than nutritional ketosis. However, even with good fasting glucose, I am a messed up person. I have inherited hypoglycemia/tachycardia and excess carbs are just never good for me. The highs are followed by the inevitable dip in blood sugar.

I wish I could afford testing and see my reverse T3 levels right now versus 6 months ago....

I never thought I'd say this, but I love all these tests! I just had my ongoing panel of thyroid tests (not reverse T3 this time) and I find it fascinating. Both my free T4 and free T3 were better than they've ever been since I started testing a little over a year ago. I'll test again in 4 months and it will be interesting to see if there's any change.

[mom2zeke]

On my shopping trip today I bought all of the ingredients for the fat bombs. I may make them tomorrow to bring into work for lunch. I have an insulated lunch box with some ice packs that will hopefully help get them to work unscathed on the bus.

[RebeccaLatham]

Originally Posted by mom2zeke

On my shopping trip today I bought all of the ingredients for the fat bombs. I may make them tomorrow to bring into work for lunch. I have an insulated lunch box with some ice packs that will hopefully help get them to work unscathed on the bus.

I'm sure they will make it there okay!

[DiggingDogFarm]

Thank you for this thread!
I ordered the books today and the free Nova Max monitor.

~Martin

[mom2zeke]

Good morning everyone! How are you all doing today? Summer seems to have finally arrived in the PNW (it only took until August) and it's beautiful outside here.

Hi DiggingDogFarm! Glad you have found the thread useful!

Winemaker friends are in town for a few days and we saw them for dinner last night. Ended up drinking a bit more wine than I planned (it's harder to refuse when your friend is pouring great wine that he made). So two consecutive days of protein on the higher end (90s). Yesterday with carbs (because of the wine) higher than I would have liked (34 grams).

With all of that I saw my lowest ketone reading ever this morning: .9
Blood glucose was 74

This is not trending in the correct direction. But this has to work while living life, correct? So I'm back to my normal eating plan today and for the rest of the week.

We're spending next weekend with friends so my eating will also not be as controlled as I'd like. Luckily these friends are also LC and not winemakers!

[paulabob]

Great fat loss Rebecca!

This has definitely been a hard weekend for me with 3 of my 4 meals eaten out. A few boo boos yesterday, but scale is still sticking at the bounce back 126 number. I'm sure I'll get some downward movement during the week.

My church potluck ended up just fine. Ate one fried chicken leg plus a flour free lemon pepper chicken wing, plus the legal cole slaw I brought and deviled egg.

[mom2zeke]

paulabob--great news on the church potluck. Navigating weekend eating is so tricky!

I have 24 fat bombs setting up in the freezer. I made Rebecca's recipe but substituted macadamia nut butter and liquid splenda. I'm excited to see how they turn out!

[RebeccaLatham]

[RebeccaLatham]

Good for you, Paula!

[mom2zeke]

I just tried one of the fat bombs. YUM! I can see how these can be dangerous. I will definitely work them into my plan so that I don't over eat them.

Thanks for the recipe Rebecca!