Eating at a surplus

[stz]

Hello!

I've been on a weight loss diet which I guess I'd describe as low carb. I aim for 1.4g - 1.7g of protein per kilo of bodyweight a day and 50g of carbohydrates a day, targeted with workouts. The rest of my 1,500 calories a day come from fats.

The idea being that I'm eating at a deficit and I'm going to burn body mass, the high protein consumption should help spare muscle tissue, the low carbohydrates mean I'm regularly burning fat and with a more stable insulin response, the targeted carbohydrates prevent excessive protein burning during weight lifting 4 days a week and the lifting itself is helping to maintain muscle.

Anyway. It has been working out as I'm down 50lbs and I'm not that upset with my lifts. I lifted a starting strength style program for the first three months then moved onto an upper body lower body split.

Now there are plenty of conflicting ideas and theories about muscle gain and diet and I'm not too sure where to go next once I've reached my target weight. I am aiming to put on muscle as quickly as I can. I don't believe that it is possible to build muscle on a cut, I believe you can gain some strength through form and training, central nervous system adaptation, energy pathways, full muscle activation etc. I believed I was getting pretty swole but some time with a camera pretty much showed that for what it is, I'm just getting smaller.

Some people believe that you can gain on maintenance calories. Some believe quickest gains are when you bulk, eating thousands of calories. The more rational strike a balance. Saying that if you will gain 1-2lb of muscle per month then anything more will just be fat so accept a 200-300 calorie per day surplus.

The problem is adjusted for exercise my 200-300 calorie surplus is 3213-3313 calories per day. With my low carb eating I'm not sure where that is going to come from. I can just switch to fattier meats I guess. I could possibly go to 150g of carbohydrate a day.

The thing is I believe that the bodies ability to burn most fuels for energy is adaptive. I believe that in an active, frequently glycogen depleted individual like myself (I'm in and out of ketosis all the time) that carbohydrates will rarely be converted to fats for storage. I eat a deficit anyway so they just get burnt up and any surplus would go towards glycogen reserves for quite some time. All they do is stop me burning fat for energy for a while. Protein is similar, if you eat an excess your body just burns it. In extreme excess then it does it converted to a glucose and then in extreme surplus of that it'd get converted to fats but this is going to be very rare. Dietary fat is almost there though as a storage form. In a situation of surplus or available carbohydrates its stored pretty readily.

So I don't know what the hell to eat to get that many calories. I can continue to low carb and add some double cream or olive oil to my diet. I can start buying fattier meats and eating all the skin on chicken. But then I'm never really giving myself the carbohydrates to push my workouts.

I could cut my fat down to essential levels, consume 600g of carbohydrates a day. Knowing full well that the raised blood sugar and the state of calorie excess would leave me with all that fat being stored. But most theories consider this a terrible diet.

It seems hard to strike a balance. Not just with the best approach to building the muscle and diet but where those calories if you choose to add them come from. What is the opinion of others on here?

[fozzie99]

My 2 cents decide where you want to be next short term calculate how much protein you need to support that. Base your other percentages for fat and carbs on that with an eye on total cals lean toward fats to make up the difference. Remember when you exchange muscle for fat your net change in pounds will be upwards.

[stz]

Well I want to be 190lb at 8-10% bodyfat. I'm currently 213lb at around 20%. I need to lose another 21-22lb. So with 3,300calories lets roll with roughly 1.7g protein per kg of desired bodyweight and 800 calories of carbohydrate (an hour or so of hard exercise) with the rest fat:

150g protein - 600 calories
200g carbohydrate - 800 calories
210g fat - 1900 calories

Owch. Am I supposed to be eating half a pound of fat a day? This is where diet gets weird you see. From eating 50g of carbohydrate a day to 200g already seems like a massive concession.

[fozzie99]

You need to do some research on where the SMART medical pros are leaning on nutrition.
They are jumping ship on low fat diets the only reason it's not a landslide is MONEY and PRIDE. They won't admit they were led astray by BAD science and they don't want to give up the MONEY from the establishment that is stuck on the "low fat" band wagon.
Think FAT good CARB bad. Look up EFGT on the forums. Also there are several good videos here and on youtube from medical people you need to see.

[stz]

To be honest I've likely read and seen them. I've not come across low carbohydrate eating by accident. I don't go as far as Taubes, I still believe in calorie restriction but I don't eat sugar or fruit and I only eat complex carbohydrates in tiny amounts and pre and post workout only. I also don't demonise the insulin response so much but its important to understand it and at least the resistance aspect of it.

Most of the SMART pro's part opinion when it comes to body building. Most don't recommend eating that much for starters. Unfortunately having been over 300lbs at one point I don't really want to 'slim down' to the natural build I have considering I work a very easy job. I think I'd have to pick a goal body of a flying squirrel or something.

[inatic]

carbs arent bad oy!

you'll gain less fat if you were leaner vs trying to gain fat while still 'heavier' When we do bulks, we lean down first.

go to maintenance FIRST, then start adding more calories. You dont have to eat that much over maintenance to start gaining.

your protein should be set at 1- 1.5g g per Body wt. and is too low. Im 130 lbs and eat nearly as much as you have set for yourself on a bulk. when carbs are plentiful, you dont need to worry as much about protein. That becomes more of an issue when leanest.

yes use fat to make up the balance of your cals but dont be affraid of carbohydrates.

[stz]

I don't really feel carbs ARE bad, I just feel that a diet should be based on what they are, energy dense and often nutritionally sparse, causing a problem if they push out other macronutrient ratios when maintaining calories and causing some of the same problems if calories are eaten at a surplus. Also a nod to the insulin response, blood sugar, the ability to bring about satiety etc.

From what I read. The traditional idea of bulk/cut cycles is pretty old fashioned now and considered less effective than maintaining a pretty lean body fat and eating a moderate surplus and adjusting as needed. The idea being that without being on the bicycle and doing everything right with diet and training you'll only gain 2lb of muscle or so a month naturally meaning anything more than a 200-300 calorie surplus is going to be extra fat deposits.

I want to get down to 8-10% bodyfat, eat maintenance levels for a month or so to hopefully stabilise then start my mini bulking until a maximum of 15% bodyfat. Then a mini cut (nothing like at the moment).

On a traditional bulk/cut you are supposed to be losing so much time cutting harder due to the extra unnecessary weight.

[stz]

I'll CAP some here for the sake of ease but the references are there in the article.

"the RDA for those engaged in strength training should be about 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body mass per day". Dr Lemon came to this conclusion after citing several studies (Fern, 1991, Tarnopolsky et al., 1992) which used amounts of protein ranging from 1.3 - 3.3 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight

Also

Both sedentary and strength training groups were involved. The results showed that 1.4 grams resulted in protein synthesis while there were no changes in the low protein group and, finally, the group that ingested 2.4 grams of protein did not see any more increased protein synthesis than the 1.4 grams of protein group.

And

Another study conducted at the Letterman Army Institute of Research in San Francisco showed that subjects on a higher protein intake (2.8 g/kg/day), coupled with intense strength training, gained a whopping 3.28 kg (7.2 lbs) of lean mass. The study was done over a 40-day period and the subjects were trained to near exhaustion (2). Another study of weightlifters over a 3 month period, with the protein increased from 2.2g/kg/day to 3.5 g/kg/ day, resulted in a 6% increase in muscle mass and a 5% increase in strength (3).

I mean. All this seems to support that 1.4g/kg - 1.7/kg works for building muscle including groups of elite athletes training extensively and upto 3.5g/kg works out at 6% better but the improvements above 1.7g/kg start to show diminishing returns pretty quickly.

I know what you mean, I run into 1g/lb for bulk 1.5g/lb for cut all the time and I think it totally works. It is hard to work into a regular diet though with whey/meat super frenzy huh? I also see bulking diets of 5000-6000 calories and a gallon of milk a day.

So I'm not sure what to think, but plenty of studies show 1.4/1.7g lower limit to 2.8/3.5g per KG to be valid amounts of protein. 1.5g/lb is like 3.3g/kg and I seriously cannot lump myself in with 'elite athletes training to exhaustion during a controlled study for a 6% increase' when I'm more like pasty office worker who lifts 4-5 hours a week.

[inatic]

that is a decent article.
I dont like his set recommendation of calories as ea of us have different metabolisms.

[inatic]

if one is over wt, i can see using the kg for protein.. we than often say for simplicity use your goal wt for approx if significantly 'juicey' Coach uses body most often but your right, in excess, its just wasted.

have your read any of lyle mcdonalds work?

[inatic]

PS, the RDA stinks for any kind of recommendations. did you look for info/citings older, than 91

[stz]

I think I upset the TOS with linking some articles from pages with excessive advertising (bodybuilding staple unfortunately with vitamin containers with exploding tigers etc on them) I think I get desensitised to it.

But anyway.. This is the problem. Who is correct? Taubes et al would tell me that any carbohydrates is going to cause fat again even if I'm calorie counting. Others say well, fructose isn't any good and simple carbohydrates aren't good but you can handle a few. The problem with a diet of 3.3k calories is I need more than a few or I need to eat more protein which I guess wouldn't really HARM and at least it isn't going to turn into fat.

I am a little concerned to post another article. Its from a website which I won't link directly but can be found on bodyrecomposition com (sorry admin, I run adblock but can't see direct adverts etc on this site).

'Let me put this in perspective. Despite a lot of claims to the contrary, the actual conversion of carbohydrate to fat in humans under normal dietary conditions is small approaching insignificant (a topic I discussed at least briefly in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation).

Make no mistake, the conversion of carbs to fat (a process called de-novo lipogenesis or DNL) can happen but the requirements for it to happen significantly are fairly rare in humans under most conditions (to discuss this in detail would require a full article, interested readers can search Medline for work by Hellerstein or Acheson on the topic).

At least one of those is when daily carbohydrate intake is just massive, fulfilling over 100% of the daily maintenance energy requirements. And only then when muscle glycogen is full. For an average sized male you’re looking at 700-900 grams of carbohydrate daily for multiple days running.

Which means that the odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of ‘fat’) isn’t one of them.

I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.'

So seeing as dietary fat is pretty much almost a storage form of fat already it doesn't make as much sense to eat a calorific surplus of the stuff compared to say protein or carbohydrates yet this goes against what is currently working really well for me.

[stz]

And on seeking out other studies, I'm always looking, its a work in progress. But as that scale creeps closer to 190lb I'm running out of time which is quite stressful for me because what has worked for me has been quite obsessive.

I picture eating more including carbohydrates. Carbing up a little with some water weight thrown in, getting worried and going back on my diet and ending up with less muscle mass than ever.

[inatic]

i dont like/ trust taubes (keep the flames people I do trust lyle mcdonald. My coaches does use his stuff. I"d rather follow someone geared towards fitness when that is my goal.

Its ok to put the info from the article,The title of the article (credit) just make sure to credit lyles stuff, sans the link (rules)

I have a few of lyles books, well worth the investment.

[inatic]

your wt will go up when you increase carbohydrates.. note HYDRATE in the word. Dont fear it.

we do a lot of that when we do refeeds.. comes off and then some.

[stz]

Because I've been following a mixture of low carb/TKD I know what you mean. I can go out for dinner for a friends birthday and eat a regular meal with potatoes, a couple of beers and a piece of cake and wake up 6-7lb heavier!

[stz]

Also I just clicked that site is Lyle's. I think I read something by him a while ago which was a modified protein sparing fast for 'best case' crash dieting.

[inatic]

he has tons of books and information, not JUST the PSMF (which is not called that anymore
Definitely worth the time to read and peruse his articles.

[inatic]

There is a WHOLE section just for muscle gains.

and fat loss, etc. got to articles on the body recomposition site

[inatic]

good article to read for starters re your protein delema by Lyle McDonad
'Protein Requirements for Strength and Power Athletes'

[stz]

Y'know after a read I'm going to go with something like:

250g protein
150g carbohydrates
150g fats

For 3,000 calories.

I can hit macro's like that on my current diet + a small serving of beans + ounce or two of nuts + extra scoop of whey.

Gives me 1.3g/lb of protein which is bang in the middle of nearly every safe/sane/recommended study. Gives me plenty of carbohydrates for weight training based on Lyle's recommendations for those looking to weight lift and low carb without constant keto (fits me) and the fat isn't insane amounts, little olive oil for cooking, couple of avocados a week. It does mean dropping calories to about 3,000 a day which is off based on calculations but y'know.. I'll judge progress by performance, measurements how I feel and the scale rather than a calculator which y'know.. could over estimate my effort, under estimate my consumption and generally is about as flexible as a brick as well as useful compared to actually getting the hell on with it.

[inatic]

So this is for going forward when you bulk, current? Basing protein needs on bw at the time you start, not current need, correct?

I'll judge progress by performance, measurements how I feel and the scale rather than a calculator which y'know..

yep! Get cha. We are all individuals, with individual metabolisms etc..scales and calculators are only meant as guides.

[inatic]

you may find on training days to have higher carb (more energy/strength) and lower fat, and then switch it up some on Non training days.. cycling a bit, another way to do it..

[stz]

Yeah. Based on previous results I'm looking at another 3 months before this starts anyway. At that point if the cut has gone perfectly I should be at least 10% bodyfat and at least 195lb hopefully closer to 8% and 190lb. Then I was going to take a couple of weeks to a month to increase calories over, but seeing as what I just outlined is pretty much maintenance at my current activity I'm likely going to roll straight into that and see if it gets me where I want to. My next goal is to hopefully bulk up to 205lb and then cut back to 200lb at 8% bodyfat with a timeframe of 4-6 months after that.

I'm 6'2" so it isn't too much I think but I can't pull off being thin anymore. I was sub 150lb when I was about 18 and I loved it but I think everyone except teenage girls actually hated it.

The biggest hurdle is going to be understanding what is likely to be a huge mess of water weight which comes with the increased carbohydrate and calories. I'm not sure how to really handle that one, just ignore the first weeks gain because it'll come off first when cutting? Diet down lower to account for it? I mean. If I want to bulk from 190 until 205 and I gain 7-8lb of water weight in the first 3-4 days it isn't really a fair reflection is it? Eh. What do you do?

[inatic]

just ignore the immediate gains of water. once it's consistent, it levels out after a week or two.. then gauge from there..

when dieted down, the best approach is slowly raise them to maintenance and then over as needed. dont have to get crazy as you said. If the true fat gains (not the water wt) comes on too fast, you can cut back the cals a wee bit and hold steady and evalute. Seriously, dont be carbophobic, it will hold you back.