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Old 01-29-2010, 03:57 PM   #121
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Jami & Celeste: Thanks for the congrats on the "W." Appreciate it.

Great job to all on the workouts.

Jami, as you aspire to figure/fitness, one thing that I'm 99.9% certain Ileen will agree with is that you should always do the strength training component of your workout before any cardio/endurance training, even if it's high intensity like intervals. This will become especially important as you begin to incorporate refeeds/carb-ups into your program. You want to use the stored glycogen for what it's best utilized for - strength training - and then perform your cardio in a glycogen-depleted state for enhanced fat utilization.

Celeste - you'll be leaving those 14's behind before you know it. You can't go wrong following Tom V's advice. He's a great guy and the real deal in an industry full of charlatans. Can't say enough good things about Tom.

Today's A.M. Training: USMC Daily 16 for active recovery/mobility.

Where's Laura been?

Have a great weekend,
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Old 01-29-2010, 04:05 PM   #122
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Quote:
Jami, as you aspire to figure/fitness, one thing that I'm 99.9% certain Ileen will agree with is that you should always do the strength training component of your workout before any cardio/endurance training, even if it's high intensity like intervals. This will become especially important as you begin to incorporate refeeds/carb-ups into your program. You want to use the stored glycogen for what it's best utilized for - strength training - and then perform your cardio in a glycogen-depleted state for enhanced fat utilization.
Yes, we do cardio first OR separated by 6hr or so hrs.. so then you can do am cardio (HIIT fed not fasted!) and wt training in the evening. If you have to do them all in one session, then AFTER wt training.

We also often do HIIT on a leg day so the legs have the most time to recover, especially if you are training them twice a week focusing on hams/quads on different days.
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Old 01-30-2010, 03:33 AM   #123
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Thanks you all for all the guidance! I really think I will get the results I'm looking for now. Im so excited, Im just so happy that I can work out again. The 6 month break to let my back heal really helped. It was torture! I wanted to start back up again everyday.
Its hard to get through the mentality of wanting to do cardio first and I only work out one session a day. I also love the HITT! I used to get on the treadmill and run for 90 minutes, about 8 miles or so. Now I only have to do about 30 minutes and I am getting better results.
The refeed/carb up days will be hard to get used to. I need to get over the fluctuations of water weight, and only realize it is ONLY WATER WEIGHT, and that it will help my fat % go down.
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:46 AM   #124
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Thanks you all for all the guidance! I really think I will get the results I'm looking for now. Im so excited, Im just so happy that I can work out again. The 6 month break to let my back heal really helped. It was torture! I wanted to start back up again everyday.
Its hard to get through the mentality of wanting to do cardio first and I only work out one session a day. I also love the HITT! I used to get on the treadmill and run for 90 minutes, about 8 miles or so. Now I only have to do about 30 minutes and I am getting better results.
The refeed/carb up days will be hard to get used to. I need to get over the fluctuations of water weight, and only realize it is ONLY WATER WEIGHT, and that it will help my fat % go down.
Jami (and others), I am enjoying reading along in this thread. Funny how it feeds inspiration when you're "on the same page" with others who have similar goals, huh?


I may have to join you guys occasionally, if I'm welcome? Ilene, I remember your helping me way back when as I began to overcome my fear of carbs, and you've been a great source of inspiration to me all along.

Jami, I want to say that I read what Stack wrote regarding cardio, and I tend to agree:

Quote:
Jami, as you aspire to figure/fitness, one thing that I'm 99.9% certain Ileen will agree with is that you should always do the strength training component of your workout before any cardio/endurance training, even if it's high intensity like intervals. This will become especially important as you begin to incorporate refeeds/carb-ups into your program. You want to use the stored glycogen for what it's best utilized for - strength training - and then perform your cardio in a glycogen-depleted state for enhanced fat utilization.
I think it's even more imp, given that you're just beginning to do carb loads and refeeds. If you're crunched for time and need to get it all in at once (as I often do, due to my schedule), doing cardio right after weights has an advantage of burning more fat because your glycogen stores are all used up (as Stack mentioned), and so your body HAS TO look to your fat to burn as energy. Progressive, intense weight training takes a lot out of the body, and so your cardio might suffer just a little bit with this scenario, the only caveat.

One other thing about your carb load days. Start the carb-load with rapidly absorbing carbohydrates (higher gi carbs, rice cakes, bagels, pretzels, or dextrose as an example) for your first one or two meals. This triggeer will help drive the carbohydrates into the muscle cells. For the rest of your meals throughout the day, consume slower burning sources of carbohydrates such as yams, oats, brown rice. Get those carbs in quickly at the start of your day, is the idea. It will prime your body for a more explosive workout.

Hello and best wishes to all who have begun this thread. You guys are great. Keep up the hard work. I'll be coming back for more.

Everyone have a great weekend.

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Old 01-30-2010, 08:02 AM   #125
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Jami (and others), I am enjoying reading along in this thread. Funny how it feeds inspiration when you're "on the same page" with others who have similar goals, huh?

I may have to join you guys occasionally, if I'm welcome? Ilene, I remember your helping me way back when as I began to overcome my fear of carbs, and you've been a great source of inspiration to me all along.

Jami, I want to say that I read what Stack wrote regarding cardio, and I tend to agree:



I think it's even more imp, given that you're just beginning to do carb loads and refeeds. If you're crunched for time and need to get it all in at once (as I often do, due to my schedule), doing cardio right after weights has an advantage of burning more fat because your glycogen stores are all used up (as Stack mentioned), and so your body HAS TO look to your fat to burn as energy. Progressive, intense weight training takes a lot out of the body, and so your cardio might suffer just a little bit with this scenario, the only caveat.

One other thing about your carb load days. Start the carb-load with rapidly absorbing carbohydrates (higher gi carbs, rice cakes, bagels, pretzels, or dextrose as an example) for your first one or two meals. This triggeer will help drive the carbohydrates into the muscle cells. For the rest of your meals throughout the day, consume slower burning sources of carbohydrates such as yams, oats, brown rice. Get those carbs in quickly at the start of your day, is the idea. It will prime your body for a more explosive workout.

Hello and best wishes to all who have begun this thread. You guys are great. Keep up the hard work. I'll be coming back for more.

Everyone have a great weekend.
Do you recommend eating a couple hours before work outs, or to work out in the morning after a night fast?
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:05 AM   #126
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Get those carbs in quickly at the start of your day, is the idea. It will prime your body for a more explosive workout.
we are forbidden to train on an empty stomach.
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:14 AM   #127
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we are forbidden to train on an empty stomach.
LOL Yes Ma'am!!
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:22 AM   #128
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How soon before and what do you eat pre workout?
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:23 AM   #129
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This thread should be called "questions and answers" by Jamistar. LOL
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:46 AM   #130
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This thread should be called "questions and answers" by Jamistar. LOL
LOL
Asking and learning is never shunned..

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamistar77 View Post
How soon before and what do you eat pre workout?
It depends on what you ate. If you drank a shake and had some say toast or say maltodextrin.. then you can train within 30min.. if you have say eggs and oats.. i'd wait an hr.. I think for someone who trained at the crack of dawn and couldnt eat... he suggest whey and gatorade.. some eat 1/2 of their breakfast meal, then protein carbs post workout and then the other 1/2 of their meal later .. then follow with the rest of the meal plan...

there are so many ways to do.. none per say 'right' but what fits for you. but i'd think you shouldnt train in a fasted state.. really, how many calories do you think of fat you might be burning vs being fed and fueled with more energy to push harder... It's all in the daily total.

we always have protein and lowfat carbs post workout. fruit isnt the best choice in larger quanitites as it replaces liver glycogen instead of the muscle.

there are some articles about carbs/training and pwo on my coaches site.

Lyle Mcdonald also has some great stuff too.
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Old 01-30-2010, 11:11 AM   #131
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Thanks Twyla!

I think I can safely speak for everyone here to say that you are anytime!

If you don't show up, we'll go to other threads and find you!
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Old 01-30-2010, 11:40 AM   #132
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Okay, I've got a question for you seasoned workout pros:

What's the benefit of re-feed days? It seems to me like you're just giving your body carbs to burn off instead of fat. Isn't the purpose to burn fat?

I have a day once every few months where I will have whatever I want in moderation. I have to be careful with this 'cause it's too easy to fall off the wagon and eating carbs really makes me feel BAD if I over do it. It's almost like a hangover. So, I just don't let myself go there very much. Is there a benefit, though and if so, how much does it take to "refeed"? One meal? A whole day?

TIA!!
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:39 PM   #133
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The purpose of refeeds is to elevate declining leptin levels.

refeeds should be done for a minimum of 5-6hr hrs to 2-3days..

you might want to google and read up on them prior to attempting one. Lyle mcdonald has some excellent info on this.. His flexable dieting book is great source of info.

When i do a shorter refeed i dont get that hangover feeling but when i do a full day of eat whatever (carb overload LOL) i feel icky the next day.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:43 PM   #134
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Okay, I've got a question for you seasoned workout pros:

What's the benefit of re-feed days? It seems to me like you're just giving your body carbs to burn off instead of fat. Isn't the purpose to burn fat?

I have a day once every few months where I will have whatever I want in moderation. I have to be careful with this 'cause it's too easy to fall off the wagon and eating carbs really makes me feel BAD if I over do it. It's almost like a hangover. So, I just don't let myself go there very much. Is there a benefit, though and if so, how much does it take to "refeed"? One meal? A whole day?

TIA!!
Thanks for the welcome.

Ditto to what Ilene said. Elevate leptin and to get your glycogen restored.
Performance in the gym stays good. Thyroid function remains higher for a longer period of time. Improves and maximizes metabolism.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:45 PM   #135
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Okay, I've got a question for you seasoned workout pros:

What's the benefit of re-feed days? It seems to me like you're just giving your body carbs to burn off instead of fat. Isn't the purpose to burn fat?

I have a day once every few months where I will have whatever I want in moderation. I have to be careful with this 'cause it's too easy to fall off the wagon and eating carbs really makes me feel BAD if I over do it. It's almost like a hangover. So, I just don't let myself go there very much. Is there a benefit, though and if so, how much does it take to "refeed"? One meal? A whole day?

TIA!!
Thanks for the welcome.

Ditto to what Ilene said. Elevate leptin and to get your glycogen restored.
Performance in the gym stays good. Thyroid function remains higher for a longer period of time. Improves and maximizes metabolism.

One of the most easy-to-digest explanations of the purpose of a refeed is in this Shannon Clark article. I've saved this article to my fitness files. She explains it in a very straightforward way.

Google: Shannon Clark Power of a Refeed and Leptin

(I tried posting the link and it went straight to "moderator approval." So just google it.)
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Old 01-30-2010, 01:08 PM   #136
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Oh wow, ladies, THANKS!! I had NO idea. But, I've read about leptin and that makes sense. Hmmm what WILL I have for din-din? I will definitely do some googling!

Btw, just got through with a 30 HITT w/o on the rebounder.
5 minute jog to warm up
HITT on even minutes
Jog on the odd minutes
4 minute cool down

Gonna try to do the 20 minute Pilates if I can talk myself into it. My hip flexors are SORE!
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Old 01-30-2010, 01:59 PM   #137
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Alright! I am going to refeed on Monday! How does this sound:
1st meal Pre workout 1/2 cup cooked oatmeal, 5 egg whites
2nd meal post workout 1/2 cup cooked oatmeal, protein powder
3rd meal Spicy tuna roll, (thanks Lisa for reminding me how MUCH I love sushi)
4th meal, hamburger with salad, bell peppers, cucumbers
5th meal Grilled Chicken with steamed veggies
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Old 01-31-2010, 02:56 AM   #138
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Alright! I am going to refeed on Monday! How does this sound:
1st meal Pre workout 1/2 cup cooked oatmeal, 5 egg whites
2nd meal post workout 1/2 cup cooked oatmeal, protein powder
3rd meal Spicy tuna roll, (thanks Lisa for reminding me how MUCH I love sushi)
4th meal, hamburger with salad, bell peppers, cucumbers
5th meal Grilled Chicken with steamed veggies
Okay, Jami....Inquiring minds gotta know: How many carbs are in Monday's refeed menu? Any idea. Just curious.

Eyeballing it, it doesn't look like many.

Just so you'll fully understand the concept, a refeed is usually a significant number of carbs, a carb "load," if you will. I posted a reference to Shannon Clark's article that explains rather simply the concept of a refeed -- what it is, its purpose, etc.

It appears to me from the looks of your menu that you're doing more of a "carb-up" day. This too can be beneficial to our metabolism and energy levels.

And trust me, I've been where you are. I totally get the whole "fear of carbs" thing. It's natural to want to take it slowly. In fact, for many people, I would encourage it. A true refeed can be rather daunting. But the more you know, the easier it will become.

Your menu looks great by the way. You've tapered by the last few meals.

Hope it goes well for you.
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Old 01-31-2010, 03:27 AM   #139
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Jami,

To give you an idea of what Twyla is talking about, 4-5 grams of carbs per pound of bodyweight is not unheard of for a refeed/high carb day. As in 560-700 grams for a 140-pound physique athlete.

That's fairly extreme, and I'm not suggesting you should do that, nor am I suggesting that Twyla is suggesting that you do that. I just want to give you a frame of reference as to where your ~54 grams of carbs from oatmeal would put you.

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Old 01-31-2010, 03:33 AM   #140
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My refeeds on a wee bit less wt were about 250 carbs, in about 3 meals over 5 or so hrs. A few times i had the max of about 600 but that was the first few yrs and i have had that amt since.

It really depends on how lean and how depleted.. When i was really lean, it was a free day.. and VERY very lean.. an eat what evah you wanted...

I think the basis though lyle recommends:
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1 day 4-6 g/lb LBM
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Old 01-31-2010, 03:38 AM   #141
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what i'd really do in your shoes if you've been dieting for a while and stuck is go to maintenance cals for two weeks... bring your carbs up since you are going to anyway.. and then start dieting again with either carb cycling or your moderate approach/refeed.

and you still need to see the results from your Free T3.. because that alone will have you spinning your wheels.
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Old 01-31-2010, 03:40 AM   #142
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Ok,.... I get it.
Twyla, I did read Shannon's article, very good info and I now understand the logic of a refeed. I am someone who needs numbers to go by, like with Atkins, its structured so I know how many of this and how many of that.
I though I would just try to double my carb in take on refeed day. Maybe I should take it further to 100ish?? I have all day to work on my menu for tomorrow.
Any suggestions? And you are right, the process of adding all the carbs in for that day is difficult. When you VLC for a while you almost lose your sense of the "balanced meal" concept.
Stack thanks! I think that 560-700 does sound a lot LOL. I think I might go with the 100-150 total carb level. We'll see. I'll work on it today. This is so ridiculous! I know Im making it so much harder than it is! LOL I have read about tapering in the BFFM article and I thought that would work best for me. Maybe I'll have 1 cup before and 1 cup of oatmeal after (cooked) that would give me 54 oatmeal carbs and 30 carbs from the sushi roll. Then probably 20 more with the remaining meals.
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Old 01-31-2010, 04:43 AM   #143
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Jamistar, just gotta thank you for prompting such interesting dialogue here in this thread! I've been lurking and learning and enjoying all this information.

And talk about expert advice...there is a lot of knowledge up in here.

It is giving me hope!
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Old 01-31-2010, 05:47 AM   #144
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Jamistar, just gotta thank you for prompting such interesting dialogue here in this thread! I've been lurking and learning and enjoying all this information.

And talk about expert advice...there is a lot of knowledge up in here.

It is giving me hope!
Thanks LIsa, LOL I was just feeling guilty yesterday for highjacking this thread! I think it is valuable information as well, and yes, we DO have some very knowledgeable people in here!
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Old 01-31-2010, 05:48 AM   #145
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what i'd really do in your shoes if you've been dieting for a while and stuck is go to maintenance cals for two weeks... bring your carbs up since you are going to anyway.. and then start dieting again with either carb cycling or your moderate approach/refeed.

and you still need to see the results from your Free T3.. because that alone will have you spinning your wheels.
Sure, so maintenance levels would be body weight x 15 right? LBW or regular body weight? Ive seen it done both ways. Body for life says to use LBW, but on other sites they dont. I call my dr and requested the T3. They called me back and said it wasn't nessecary. She said, if you wanted we could just send you to endo. My insurance really isnt that good. I am not wanting a huge bill, where it goes from a $20 copay, to having to make payments on the bill. I have maintained the same weight but I have actually lost a few inches, my clothes are fitting very loosly on me now since I started lifting a few weeks ago

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Old 01-31-2010, 05:50 AM   #146
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we use body wt.
lyle mcdonald wrote a bit on diet breaks.
make sure to raise your carbs up. i believe it's to at least 100g a day

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Old 01-31-2010, 05:55 AM   #147
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Ok. Maintanence cals and 100 carbs a day! Got it!
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:23 AM   #148
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what i'd really do in your shoes if you've been dieting for a while and stuck is go to maintenance cals for two weeks... bring your carbs up since you are going to anyway.. and then start dieting again with either carb cycling or your moderate approach/refeed.
Exactly. You have to make your body receptive to dieting again. In powerlifting training, this analogizes to what we call "softening up," or, technically, "deloading." Your CNS can only tolerate full-bore training for so long and you have to periodize your intensity. Three steps forward, one step back. You work up to a new max and then back off and use 90% of that to determine training percentages for the next cycle, which progressively carries you through your previous best to a new max. Trying to max out all the time is a recipe for stagnation and regression.

Metabolism and diet are much the same way. You've developed a metabolic tolerance for dieting, so to speak, and now you have to throw a wrench in the spokes and refeed calories and carbs and "soften up" for the next round of dieting and next level of progress.
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Old 01-31-2010, 01:55 PM   #149
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,743
Gallery: jamistar77
Stats: 150/142/137 or 15% body fat 5'7"
WOE: Body For Life/TKD
Start Date: 09/2009
I think I am really excited to take some time off of the diet thing! I hope I dont lose my ambition. If I slip off track it takes me a while to get back.
I really like the BFFM! Although. I have been reading up on Body For Life lately. I bought the book today on Ebay LOL
I took a before pic of me last week, I wish I took one last month before I started working out again. I think I might do it. I could win $25,000! If there is a chance, Im going for it! Now since I have a dead line/ goal I'll be even more determined. Plus I can have a refeed once a week that I will deffinetly take advantage of.
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Old 01-31-2010, 04:29 PM   #150
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Alabama
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Stats: 22/14/10 or 8 if I can!
WOE: Atkins
Start Date: June 6, 2007
Hey ya'll!

20 minute Winsor Pilates to warm-up
30 deadlifts @ 62 lbs (2 sets of 15)
40 birddog (bodyweight)
8 bench press @ 62 lbs (really hard today for some reason)
15 dumbell row @ 20 lbs - each arm
15 planks - 10 counts each
15 tricep ext. 20 lbs

I purchased the Lyle McDonald book today which will be printed and on its way soon, but I also got the e-book so I can start reading it right away to understand more about the refeed thing. I think doing a reset would really help me right now. Other than Christmas day and Thanksgiving day, I've been VERY strict about my diet for a long time. So, I can see the value in resetting once in a while. WHATEVER it takes, so long as I stay healthy doing it.
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