Is this odd? LC and half marathon training.

[texy]

I was LC and semi LC carb for years. Last January I decided to start training for a half marathon (because THIS March I turn 40 ). I have been doing a high carb "diet" while training because, well, because I thought I needed the carbs for all the running and I still have about 15-18 pounds to lose. (and I miss Miss Linda's recipes)

After a while I realized I just don't feel as well on a higher carb diet, even with all the running so went back to lower carb (40-60 grams mostly from veggies, so far no grains or any type of sugar.

I do so quietly because most runners and any runners forum are adamently against any reduction in carbs. I thought I would just try it and if it I really crashed I would increase my carbs.

Well guess what? My first long run (about 10 miles) after cutting my carbs to 40 carbs was 3 minutes faster per mile, than when I was high carb!

Isn't that odd? I try to stay hydrated and eat clean. The mornings before my long run I eat half a banana with almond butter, and I seem to run better on lower carb! My legs "burn" a little more in the beginning but other than that I haven't noticed a huge difference in energy.

In addition to running (3 times a week) I spin 2x a week. Pilates 2x a week. and Les Mills Body Pump 2x a week. I keep my protein at about 75grams, carbs 40-60 depending on my workout, and enough fat to reach about 1600 calories.

But, I'm still not losting any weight!

So on LC my runs are faster, but I haven't lost any weight. Isn't that opposite of the way it "should" be?

[Zam]

Texy - first of all, congrats on your 10 mile run! Great job!

Your experience is similar to mine when I was training for a marathon. I was LC'ing through the entire training and right up to the marathon. My morning routine was always the same, a low carb protein shake and a piece of low carb bread with almond butter and sugar free jam. It worked well for me and never slowed me down.

Of course I never talked about my diet to my coaches, because they were always pushing us to have pasta the night before a long training run. My dinner was always a steak and veggies the night before.

I know there are lots of others on this board that swear by LC'ing all the way through 1/2 marathon and full marathon training.

[mmam5]

I'm not true LC anymore, but do keep to whole foods, non-processed stuff and
I've only been running for almost a year, but have learned lots... And one the most important things is to listen to YOUR body and do what you know works for you.

On another running board I hang at, they always say to eat a normal meal the night before a race ... in other words - Meat/veggies would be good... but don't eat a "diet" dinner that's not going to stay with you.

For me, my favorite pre-race meal whether it's a 5K or a 15K ... 1 egg/2 egg white/veggie omelette with 2 piece of toast/CO. I eat half before the race and the rest afterwards. My DH on the other hand loves to have his grapes/banana before hand.

As you get more miles in and spend more time running, after you get past running for more than an hour, you will probably use up more of those calories, and will probably need to use gels or something to give you more energy later on...

Another thread here at LCF that has tons of great Runner info:
Tearin' up the track, trail or treadmill 10/29/07-11/4/07

I'm still kind of a newbie -- but there are some great runners out here that LOVE to give info/tips, etc.

[texy]

thanks guys, that's great to hear. LC is such a taboo on most runners forums that I felt so "odd" to be improving on it, running wise.

I'm in the middle of experimenting what works in the middle of a long run. I tried GU. It didn't taste horrible but it made me crash pretty hard, I'm guessing it was a blood sugar thing. I kept going and managed to finish the run I went from being energetic to wanting to just lie down and take a nap. I think I'm going to try watered down accelerade next. It doesn't contain any high fructose corn syrup and has protein to slow down the absorbtion of the glucose.

I'm going look through that running thread.

Thanks!

[tiggerr]

Originally Posted by texy

I think I'm going to try watered down accelerade next. It doesn't contain any high fructose corn syrup and has protein to slow down the absorbtion of the glucose.

Try Nuun tablets first.
I trained with those, they do not contain sugar.
I also ate Lara bars, all natural and no sugar.

And like you, I've yet to lose an ounce of weight.
And I completed two halves.

[atcgirl42]

Could it be that you're not eating enough? Holy cow, you work out a ton! I'm just not sure that 1600 calories is enough to sustain you through working out 9 times a week. Congratulations on cutting down on your running time!

[angelo212]

I can't see that lasting much longer. Taking in only 1,600 calories and training the way you do your bound to crash soon. I don't know how your not losing weight. Your burning way more calories then your taking in. Congradulations on that 10 mile run.

[debbiedo]

You are eating a banana and almond butter before your run so getting good carbs in. They say runners should eat a 4:1 carb to protein ratio. In the end the calories do matter.If you run in the morning I would have some carbs before and definitely carbs and protein after. I would keep the fat low to moderate and you should lose. Make sure the calories are enough. Try adding a few hundred calories and see what happens.

[Linven]

Texy, that is not odd at all. I have run several marathons and half marathons, and mostly try to stick to a LC lifestyle. I find that when I stray, I feel much worse with heavy carbs in my body, not to mention the fact that I do begin to gain weight! Do what your body is telling you, not what everyone else tells you. My husband is tall and slender, and eats carbs like crazy. He can't understand that I just can't... His ideal meal is rice and veggies. Mine is meat and veggies. We just don't metabolize food the same. He stays slender, I've NEVER been really slender!

As to what to use while running for fuel, I think it is the accelerade that I use. It is artificially sweetened, and has amino acids in the mix. It tastes pretty good, too. I mix it in my water, and carry the bottle with me. Then refill it at the water stations. It gets more and more dilute, but that's no big deal. I will rarely use the stuff offered on the course, such as Gatoraide. Upsets my stomach, unless I water it down a LOT. Sometimes I will carry sport beans, just in case I need a bit of a boost, but those are pretty much sugar and electrolytes.

A lot of people don't lose more weight when they begin a running program because they do start falling for the "eat more carbs" notion. That is great for some folks. But, consider, if you want your body to be burning fat, why are you feeding it carbs for fuel? Especially if you just about have to blast it off? (Let's face it, most LC'ers don't metabolize carbs well, that is why we don't lose weight with mainstream plans!)

Good luck with your race! Three minutes per mile is a pretty extraordinary gain! Keep training, and have fun with it.

[debbiedo]

I think moderate carbs are good. You do need to fuel properly before you run hard and right after.

[DisneyPrincess]

Originally Posted by angelo212

I can't see that lasting much longer. Taking in only 1,600 calories and training the way you do your bound to crash soon. I don't know how your not losing weight. Your burning way more calories then your taking in. Congradulations on that 10 mile run.

I agree with this. It could be a major reason why you arent losing weight

In response to your original post- it isnt odd at all. Some people simply do better LCing. I do a more moderate carb approach and I am training for a marathon. I eat whole grains, lots of fruits and veggies, lean protein, and heart healthy fats. Just make sure you are getting proper fuel for recovery as well. Eat immediatly post run, you dont want to lose muscle while doing this because it will make your runs worse in the long run

[texy]

Great posts everyone thanks! I'll try upping my calories to about 1800 or so. It makes sense but goes so against the voice in my head that says "you can't lose weight now and you want to increase your calories!" But I certainly don't want to crash!

I think I'm at my max for protein right now (about 80 grams) so should I increase the carbs or fat? Instinct says carbs but that falls into the trap that Linven mentioned of "I'm doing cardio so I can afford more carbs".

Hmmm. I may have to experiment. I don't do well with grain so I may play around with pumpkin, sweet potato, and winter squash. Good season for doing this!

[DisneyPrincess]

I would up your protein. You should aim for 1g per pound of body weight

[atcgirl42]

Best of luck to you Texy. I hope you start seeing a loss soon. It's hard going against conventional wisdom, isn't it?

[texy]

[QUOTE=Linven;9452629]Texy, that is not odd at all. I have run several marathons and half marathons, and mostly try to stick to a LC lifestyle. I find that when I stray, I feel much worse with heavy carbs in my body, not to mention the fact that I do begin to gain weight! Do what your body is telling you, not what everyone else tells you. My husband is tall and slender, and eats carbs like crazy. He can't understand that I just can't... His ideal meal is rice and veggies. Mine is meat and veggies. We just don't metabolize food the same. He stays slender, I've NEVER been really slender!


This made me laugh. My husband is not really "overweight" but has a "paunch" because he thinks he can still eat like he did in his twenties when he was active in the military. Plus he was a cokeaholic. I've slowly tweaked his diet to be somewhat healthier. The first thing I did was have him trade cokes for coke zero BUT he had to drink an 8 oz bottle of water for every two cokes. Then after 6pm he had to switch to decaf iced tea with splenda. (plus the water) Would you believe by changing nothing else he lost 20 pounds and lowered his cholersterol to a healthy low normal.

It's easier to going against conventional wisdom with such an inspirational group.

There's a thread around here called "what are you eating?" or something like that that I posted on a while back. I think I'm going to go back and reread that thread.

Thanks everyone.

[slatman]

Made the mistake of bringing up my low carb lifestyle to a few riders in my group 100 mile ride yesterday... won't be doing that again... cyclists are also very closed minded regarding carbs/low carb

I think training low carb works extremely well for endurance athletes (distance) we can train our bodies to burn fat efficiently and add some carbs prior to the event and during (low impact) to get through the hills & sprints.. A heart rate monitor is also very helpful I know my top end of fat burning is about 158 bpm.. when I need 160's I have some clif bloks or a gu gel and I'm good for another hour. Accelorade is the best sports drink I have found that doesn't mess with the blood sugar.. I start with water and then start in on the accelorade at about 50 miles

[mmam5]

Don't forget that most of these people/athletes don't really get the whole low-carb thing... we know that veggies, etc. are good for us... but what we're trying to cut out is the crap processed carbs that a body really doesn't need. They usually think that LC'ers are eating absolutely NO carbs ... hence the scoffing

Slatman - sounds like you know your body well! Great job

[Linven]

Hey, everyone. Just in case you were wondering. I was noticing my can yesterday, and I actually use a product called Amino Vitale during my runs, not Accelerade. It is sugar free and has aminos and stuff. I also will usually use a product after a LOOONG run called Endurox R4, which does have some carbs, but is packed with protein and really helps with recovery.

Hope this helps.

Linven

[amiga74]

you could up your protein to 1gram p/LBM, so probably around 125 grams, higher even if you do weight training

[texy]

Hey everyone. Short update. I upped my protein to around 120 grams per day and started cycling my calories.

1800 on regular workout day (1 hour or less)
2100 on long workout day (more than 1 hour)
1600 on no workout day (my job is very sedentary)

And I had a three pound whoosh. Really unbelievable.

Thanks everyone for you advice.

I'm going to look for Endurox 40. I've heard of it before, from Jeff Galloway's book, I think.

[atcgirl42]

Originally Posted by texy

Hey everyone. Short update. I upped my protein to around 120 grams per day and started cycling my calories.

1800 on regular workout day (1 hour or less)
2100 on long workout day (more than 1 hour)
1600 on no workout day (my job is very sedentary)

And I had a three pound whoosh. Really unbelievable.

Thanks everyone for you advice.

I'm going to look for Endurox 40. I've heard of it before, from Jeff Galloway's book, I think.

OMG, that's incredible! I've been checking back here to see if you had any results. WTG!!

[inatic]

Eat more and lose, what a concept

[mmam5]

My FAVORITE Concept!

[SuSUN]

WTGG! Keep that engine revved!

Susan

[westside]

You're more than likely to get some noise if you espouse a low carb diet on a running board. I know an ultrarunner who went from tri's to mostly running about two years ago. He follows a low carb diet, Paleo For Athletes and does pretty well, like a top 10 finish in a field of 60 on a 50 miler. Dean Karnazes is another ultrarunner who stays somewhat low carb. In an ultra you can fuel while your moving forward. Stu Mittleman set the 100k distance record in the early 80's and he was low carb. Most ultra runners, even the elites in the sport will keep their HR's around 70-75% on averge during the race

I think where higher carbs come into play is when you race a marathon. The distance is just long enough and the race is fast enough. It's tough to get enough fuel through the stomach when you're racing at high heart rates. And it's tough to just rely on fat at those HR's. When you race past marathon distance you almost have to keep your heart rate at 75% or under but when you race a marathon, if you trained to race, then you're primed to be running at 85% of maximum heart rate or sometimes higher, for the duration of the race. When carb loading became popular in the 70's and early 80's people actually trained to race marathons. Nowaday's in popular literature, you will read that your run a marathon at 75% of maximum heart.

[texy]

Originally Posted by westside

You're more than likely to get some noise if you espouse a low carb diet on a running board. I know an ultrarunner who went from tri's to mostly running about two years ago. He follows a low carb diet, Paleo For Athletes and does pretty well, like a top 10 finish in a field of 60 on a 50 miler. Dean Karnazes is another ultrarunner who stays somewhat low carb. In an ultra you can fuel while your moving forward. Stu Mittleman set the 100k distance record in the early 80's and he was low carb. Most ultra runners, even the elites in the sport will keep their HR's around 70-75% on averge during the race

I think where higher carbs come into play is when you race a marathon. The distance is just long enough and the race is fast enough. It's tough to get enough fuel through the stomach when you're racing at high heart rates. And it's tough to just rely on fat at those HR's. When you race past marathon distance you almost have to keep your heart rate at 75% or under but when you race a marathon, if you trained to race, then you're primed to be running at 85% of maximum heart rate or sometimes higher, for the duration of the race. When carb loading became popular in the 70's and early 80's people actually trained to race marathons. Nowaday's in popular literature, you will read that your run a marathon at 75% of maximum heart.

That makes sense. I really need to invest in a heart rate monitor. I think I may do that. My goal is more to finish, than to win so I could keep my HR at about 75%. Thanks!

[westside]

Racing just means running as fast as you can over the distance, based on your overall training and experience and isn't dependent on having any realistic chance to win the race. Recreational racing is probably a better way to describe the use of the word.

[texy]

Originally Posted by westside

Racing just means running as fast as you can over the distance, based on your overall training and experience and isn't dependent on having any realistic chance to win the race. Recreational racing is probably a better way to describe the use of the word.

Thanks! I paid more attention to my heart rate when I ran today (short run about 5K) and although it wasn't as accurate as a heart rate monitor, I don't think Im running as fast as I could. I'm probably at about 60-65% of my heart rate. Hmmm. I'm going to look at going higher during my runs and see what it does to my pace (is that what runners refer to as tempo - I'm still learning all the lingo that they use). That's really helpful!

I wonder if experienced racers know - during a race does adrenalin kick in and cause you to go a little faster, or a little further more energized than when you are running during practice. Just curious. Thanks again!

[debbiedo]

I always race faster then most of my practice runs. When I do track work I practice race pace( depends on what training for). I do this with others and it is fun but hard. We do repeats of a mile or half mile or whatever is planned for that night with a lap of rest in between. There is always a mile warm up and cool down too so we rack up some miles. This really helped me get faster for my 10 K last April. I cut around 35 seconds a mile off my pace.


Good luck with your running. I love my running club and have learned alot running with others and from the Running Thread over on the the Exercise section of this message board. Come visit us over there.

[mmam5]

I noticed the adrenaline rush big time... as my jogging around the neighborhood is fairly slow... during a race it's so much more fun, cheering others on, people on the sidelines cheering you on... makes a body go just a tad bit faster ...