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Old 02-25-2008, 06:19 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Tweaker Geek View Post
Kevin - I used a bread machine. I just set it on the dough setting and let it go for 30 mins. of the dough cycle (the full cycle is 1 1/2 hrs. because it mixes, kneads, and rises). I just let it mix and knead then take it out, form and let it rise at room temp. The actual knead portion is probably 10-15 mins., I've never timed it. Do you think my dough may be being overworked?
I always use a bread machine and get a very nice rise from my dough.... I'm not sure what the problem is. I use the Express bake cycle for the mixing and kneading of the dough. It works out to almost exactly 15 mins. I then stop the machine, remove the dough, shape, allow to rise and bake. I'm actually surprised at how quickly and how high the dough rises...much better than my regular dough . One thing I notice is that the dough is a bit more 'slack' than my flour dough recipe, and in all fairness, I've also subbed some whole wheat flour for some of the Carbalose, but that's it. Beautiful, perfect dough!
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:43 PM   #212
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Where the recipe, timing and the machine type (i.e., bread machine) are the same, look to the temperature, both of the bread dough and the rising place...the one thing that hasn't been mentioned but definitely affects rising. Warmer==faster, Cooler=longer, pretty much.

Hope this helps.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:51 PM   #213
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Where the recipe, timing and the machine type (i.e., bread machine) are the same, look to the temperature, both of the bread dough and the rising place...the one thing that hasn't been mentioned but definitely affects rising. Warmer==faster, Cooler=longer, pretty much.

Hope this helps.
I agree that this does make a difference. I'm kind of old school and use a warm rise. I have to admit that it helps assist the rising.

I also realized after my last post that I used a full packet of rapid rise yeast and not just 2 tsp. I think the total amount of yeast in a full packet is like 2 1/8 tsp. Not that it makes a huge difference, just wanted to clarify.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:54 PM   #214
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Kevin - I do have a hand mixer that I have dough hooks for so I guess I could try them. I never have cause I didn't want to stand there mixing for 15 mins.! Alternatively, I will make a point to time the bread machine knead and incorporate the standing time between mixing and kneading. I'll keep you posted when I try the recipe again.

Donna - Is that the total mixing and kneading time, not just the kneading time? My machine mixes the ingredients then kicks into a more rapid mode for the knead. I just go by the sound of the machine, it's kind of a slow drone when it's mixing then speeds up for the knead. When it stops kneading I do take it out, shape the bread or rolls and place in pans to rise. It just isn't rising enough!
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:58 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
Where the recipe, timing and the machine type (i.e., bread machine) are the same, look to the temperature, both of the bread dough and the rising place...the one thing that hasn't been mentioned but definitely affects rising. Warmer==faster, Cooler=longer, pretty much.

Hope this helps.
Although temperature affects the amount of time it take a dough to rise it has been my experience that it has little bearing on the amount of the rise. I can get just as good of a rise in the refrigerator as I can a slightly preheated oven. The refrigerator rise may take longer but I have not noticed huge difference with this dough.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:24 PM   #216
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Kevin - I do have a hand mixer that I have dough hooks for so I guess I could try them. I never have cause I didn't want to stand there mixing for 15 mins.! Alternatively, I will make a point to time the bread machine knead and incorporate the standing time between mixing and kneading. I'll keep you posted when I try the recipe again.
Is that a hand or stand mixer Tweak? If you are talking about a handheld mixer with a dough hook, I have never seen one of those. If you are talking about a stand mixer though, thats a different story. You say your total cycle time for you machine is 1 hr 15 min. Compare that to the time involved with a mixer.

5 min mix time
20 min rest (timer set-unattended)
15 min knead (timer set-unattended)
5 min to shape dough

My total time per batch of dough is 45 min. and of that it only needs my attention 10 min.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:47 PM   #217
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Donna - Is that the total mixing and kneading time, not just the kneading time? My machine mixes the ingredients then kicks into a more rapid mode for the knead. I just go by the sound of the machine, it's kind of a slow drone when it's mixing then speeds up for the knead. When it stops kneading I do take it out, shape the bread or rolls and place in pans to rise. It just isn't rising enough!
My mixing time is pretty quick...probably about 1-2 mins. total. Then the knead time is 15 mins. I time it so that I can stop the machine and remove the dough once the mixing and kneading is done.

May I ask, what is the texture of the dough when you take it from the machine? Is it soft and pliable, sticky or dry? The first time I made the recipe, I used WAY too much of Kevin's mix. When I did this, I noticed that it was a more sluggish dough and although it still rose to a nice height, I don't think it was as high.

I just wanted to add that the bread machine I have is a 'cheapie' so there isn't anything "fancy" going on with it either. Other than what I've posted here, I'm at a loss for anything else that might be helpful. Sorry...
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:27 PM   #218
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Quote:
theislandgirl :
Where the recipe, timing and the machine type (i.e., bread machine) are the same, look to the temperature, both of the bread dough and the rising place...the one thing that hasn't been mentioned but definitely affects rising. Warmer==faster, Cooler=longer, pretty much.

Hope this helps.
kevinpa:
Although temperature affects the amount of time it take a dough to rise it has been my experience that it has little bearing on the amount of the rise. I can get just as good of a rise in the refrigerator as I can a slightly preheated oven. The refrigerator rise may take longer but I have not noticed huge difference with this dough.
Yep, of course, my dear. I didn't say anything about the amount of rise being affected by the temp, but I did get the strong impression that the lack of rise within approximately an hour was the issue? It's that whole timing thing...maybe the temperature is affecting the speed of the rise and within the hour mentioned, well, there's not enough rise going on...and the temperature (of the rising "environment") is the only parameter I noticed had not been mentioned.

To make a long story short, TweakerGeek, maybe in your kitchen the stuff just needs to rise a little longer than an hour or so, or MAYBE rising in a slightly warmer spot would get you the rise you want within about an hour...

Quote:
TweakerGeek:
...that's where they still were after an hour or so, I wish I could get them to rise like yours using this recipe...
Sheesh, Kevin!
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:19 AM   #219
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Sheesh, Kevin!
Jude hun, you know I would never throw a Sheesh at you! I was just trying make the point again that after making this recipe 100's of times I seriously believe the knead cycle of certain bread machines is the reason the bread dough does not rise for some as it does for me.
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:37 AM   #220
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Is that a hand or stand mixer Tweak? If you are talking about a handheld mixer with a dough hook, I have never seen one of those. If you are talking about a stand mixer though, thats a different story. You say your total cycle time for you machine is 1 hr 15 min. Compare that to the time involved with a mixer.

5 min mix time
20 min rest (timer set-unattended)
15 min knead (timer set-unattended)
5 min to shape dough

My total time per batch of dough is 45 min. and of that it only needs my attention 10 min.
[COLOR=red]Kevin, do you go thru this same mix, rest, knead routine with all your doughs? Not something I have read in most of your doughs. I think I remember you mentioning something like that awhile back with one of them (this one?), but I don' t remember this exact "routine" before. Will this work better with the #4 Carbalose recipe?[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]So you just mix enough to combine all the ingredients, then rest for 20 min, before kneading?[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]Thanks for your help!!!!! Thanks for these recipes!!!!!!!!!! [/COLOR]
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:55 AM   #221
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Kevin, do you go thru this same mix, rest, knead routine with all your doughs? Not something I have read in most of your doughs. I think I remember you mentioning something like that awhile back with one of them (this one?), but I don' t remember this exact "routine" before. Will this work better with the #4 Carbalose recipe? So you just mix enough to combine all the ingredients, then rest for 20 min, before kneading Thanks for your help!!!!! Thanks for these recipes!!!!!!!!!!
Billie as with all my bread recipes it has been a learning experience. I did not follow this method in the beginning but I do use it now with all my bread with the exception of sweet breads. With those I am not looking for that strong gluten structure. When I use it I mix the ingredients to the point were it comes together and not wet. That is usually about the time I had switched out the paddle for the hook. Then I just throw a towel over it and come back in 20 min. to start the knead.
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:33 AM   #222
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[COLOR=red]Kevin!!! I'll try that next time I bake bread. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ff0000]I know you must get tired of all our questions... That is one of the reasons I appreciate you so much. You know so much more about baking bread, etc, and you are willing to share with us, and answer our questions... I really do appreciate it!!!![/COLOR]
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:15 PM   #223
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Jude hun, you know I would never throw a Sheesh at you! I was just trying make the point again that after making this recipe 100's of times I seriously believe the knead cycle of certain bread machines is the reason the bread dough does not rise for some as it does for me.
Definitely, hun!

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Old 02-27-2008, 07:16 AM   #224
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Kevin - yes, it is a handheld mixer with dough hooks. I just got it at Lowe's, it's a Black & Decker Power Pro (also has regular beaters). Anyway, the dough hooks are kinda small, but I may give it a try. I do have a stand mixer that has dough hooks also but I never use it. I had tried making bread with it several times but the dough just climbs up the hooks, gets stuck and stops the machine. Then I have to pull the dough down, start again and it climbs the hooks and stops again - just too much trouble to bother with!

The time of the dough cycle on my bread machine is actually 1 hr. 30 min.. The first 30 mins. is the mix and knead cycle then the hour is for the dough to rise in the machine. Then you can take the dough out to shape rolls, bread or whatever for a second rise for hc bread recipes. I just take the lc bread doughs out after the 30 minutes, shape and let rise; I don't let the dough rise in the bread machine.

I may try the stand mixer again also, expecially since this pita dough doesn't use as much flour as the regular hc bread doughs I tried in it. I think they had like 8 cups of flour so maybe it will work with this and not stop the machine.

Donna - the dough is soft and pliable but just doesn't rise. I use a whole packet of rapid rise yeast. I think the recipe calls for 2 tsp. but I just throw in the whole package, which I think is 2 1/4 tsps..

Jude - that dough could have risen all day and wouldn't have gotten any higher!

Also Kevin, thanks for posting that procedure. I'm writing it down and taping it to my bread recipes book!
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Old 02-27-2008, 07:59 AM   #225
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Quote:
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Kevin - yes, it is a handheld mixer with dough hooks. I just got it at Lowe's, it's a Black & Decker Power Pro (also has regular beaters). Anyway, the dough hooks are kinda small, but I may give it a try. I do have a stand mixer that has dough hooks also but I never use it. I had tried making bread with it several times but the dough just climbs up the hooks, gets stuck and stops the machine. Then I have to pull the dough down, start again and it climbs the hooks and stops again - just too much trouble to bother with!

The time of the dough cycle on my bread machine is actually 1 hr. 30 min.. The first 30 mins. is the mix and knead cycle then the hour is for the dough to rise in the machine. Then you can take the dough out to shape rolls, bread or whatever for a second rise for hc bread recipes. I just take the lc bread doughs out after the 30 minutes, shape and let rise; I don't let the dough rise in the bread machine.

I may try the stand mixer again also, expecially since this pita dough doesn't use as much flour as the regular hc bread doughs I tried in it. I think they had like 8 cups of flour so maybe it will work with this and not stop the machine.

Donna - the dough is soft and pliable but just doesn't rise. I use a whole packet of rapid rise yeast. I think the recipe calls for 2 tsp. but I just throw in the whole package, which I think is 2 1/4 tsps..

Jude - that dough could have risen all day and wouldn't have gotten any higher!

Also Kevin, thanks for posting that procedure. I'm writing it down and taping it to my bread recipes book!
Wow Tweaker...I'm completely stumped.... My dough is very soft...a bit softer than regular yeast dough which yours sounds like so it's got to be your bread machine as Kevin suggests. Maybe trying this recipe in your stand mixer might be worth it. I've never used a stand mixer with hooks so hopefully other posters will pop in and give you some extra tips on making that experience a bit easier for you.
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:56 AM   #226
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[QUOTE=Tweaker Geek;9994855] I do have a stand mixer that has dough hooks also but I never use it. I had tried making bread with it several times but the dough just climbs up the hooks, gets stuck and stops the machine. Then I have to pull the dough down, start again and it climbs the hooks and stops again - just too much trouble to bother with!


I read somewhere to spray the dough hook with cooking spray and the dough will not climb the hook.
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Old 02-27-2008, 07:42 PM   #227
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Thanks Midnight, I'll try that.
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:28 AM   #228
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DW said she was in the mood for some Cinnamon Swirl Bread so I took a stab at it with this dough this morning.

*Note: This was my first attemp and my swirls had some gaps in them due to not rolling it tight enough(I think).
The taste was spot on though and it toasts very nice.
I will for sure be making this again.

2 cups LC Carbalose cake and cookie flour mix
1/2 tsp. salt
1 splenda quick pack
1 tsp sugar
2 tsp instant yeast
3/4 cup carbinated citrus water
2 tsp extra virgin olive oil

butter room temperature
1 tsp diabetiSweet
cinnamon

In a mixing bowl combine dry ingredients well.
In an electric mixing bowl combine water and oil.
Add flour and mix with paddle attachment until a sticky dough forms.
Replace paddle with the dough hook and knead with hook for 15 minutes until you have a soft non-sticky dough pulls away from the side of the bowl. If your dough is too wet you may have to add a small amount more of flour mix to stiffen it up.
Remove the dough from the bowl and roll out the width of a loaf dish.
Brush with butter.
Sprinkle diabetisweet over butter.
Sprinkle with cinnamon to cover.
Roll up dough jelly style into loaf shape as tight as you can and put in loaf dish.
Let rise until dough doubles. approx 1 hour.
Bake in a 350 degree preheated oven for 25 minutes.









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Old 02-28-2008, 08:34 AM   #229
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BTW the loaf was a total of 30 carbs and I got 15 nice slices from it for 2 carbs per slice.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:17 PM   #230
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Kevin

Does the taste change much if you don't use the carbonated waters? Or does it affect the rise or texture?

I'm with your DW and am missing cinnamon swirl toast!

Ressy
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:32 PM   #231
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Kevin

Does the taste change much if you don't use the carbonated waters? Or does it affect the rise or texture?

I'm with your DW and am missing cinnamon swirl toast!

Ressy
I have never noticed it making any difference in the rise. On the other hand it does effect the taste by making it a bit sweeter. That is why I like to use it when making sweet breads. Also, I have not quite put my finger on it yet, but texturally I think(still working on proving this) it makes the final bread softer. I know it has an affect on the feel of the dough.

I was really impressed with the taste of this bread and unlike some LC breads it made great toast. lol Now I just have to work on making it look better without the gaps.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:39 PM   #232
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KEVIN - I have one more question before I make this again this weekend, you always mix the dough ingredients using a paddle attachment which I do not have with my mixer with the dough hooks. Would I just mix them together using the regular beaters then change to the dough hooks? Also, how long do you mix with the paddle, just enough to get the ingredients blended together or any longer? I'm determined to get these done right, so sorry for so many questions. I'm going to use this new procedure with resting after mixing before the knead and see how that goes. Keep your fingers crossed for me everyone!

I may have to try the cinnamon swirl too!
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:48 PM   #233
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KEVIN - I have one more question before I make this again this weekend, you always mix the dough ingredients using a paddle attachment which I do not have with my mixer with the dough hooks. Would I just mix them together using the regular beaters then change to the dough hooks? Also, how long do you mix with the paddle, just enough to get the ingredients blended together or any longer? I'm determined to get these done right, so sorry for so many questions. I'm going to use this new procedure with resting after mixing before the knead and see how that goes. Keep your fingers crossed for me everyone!

I may have to try the cinnamon swirl too!
I guess the best way to answer this is that I mix it until the dough is to the point that I can remove the paddle(beaters in your case) and whatever dough is on it without the dough sticking all over my hands. I never timed it but I would guess about one minute but never more than two.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:50 PM   #234
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Thank you.
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Old 03-01-2008, 02:58 PM   #235
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Kevin, Ugh!! I made another batch of hot dog rolls today and I have another pan of breadsticks!! My dough will not rise! I did everything just as we've been discussing. I used my stand mixer, mixed the dough till blended, let it rest for 20 mins., kneaded with dough hooks for 15 mins., (at this point the dough was nice and pliable), I shaped into 8 rolls and let them rise for 1 1/2 hrs. (I added the extra 1/2 hour because they were rising but not much, they did rise a bit more). I baked them at 350 for 25 mins. and it seems like they deflated even from the small rise I got!

Now all that being said, my dough seemed to rise during that 20 minute rest period. Then when I shaped into rolls I lost that rise. Another thing that comes to mind is which mix did you use for the hot dog rolls? I used the C-Q mix, should I try with Carbalose? I know the crust textures come out differently and right now I don't care if its soft or chewy or crunchy or crispy, I'd just like a decent roll. I know I've made burger buns and they seem to come out all right but don't rise like your pictures show; they work for me though. The last batch I made (hotdog) I rolled out the dough and then rolled up like a loaf of bread and sealed the ends. This time I just rolled the dough back and forth on a cutting board to get the size I wanted and placed them on the pan. Is there any hope for me and these darn rolls??

And, Midnight, I used the spray on the dough hooks and it worked great, thank you.

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Old 03-01-2008, 03:11 PM   #236
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I'd try the carbalose first to see if you get the rise you want. If not then there is some factor that we are not touching on.
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Old 03-01-2008, 04:26 PM   #237
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Oakey dokey, that's the plan for tomorrow then. I'll let you know.

Just to be certain, its 2 cups Carbalose blend, 1/2 tsp. salt, 1 tsp. sugar, 2 tsp. yeast for dry and 3/4 cup warm water and 2 tsp. olive oil for wet, right?
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Old 03-01-2008, 05:02 PM   #238
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Oakey dokey, that's the plan for tomorrow then. I'll let you know.

Just to be certain, its 2 cups Carbalose blend, 1/2 tsp. salt, 1 tsp. sugar, 2 tsp. yeast for dry and 3/4 cup warm water and 2 tsp. olive oil for wet, right?
Yes and as I have said before I use a scant 3/4 cup water. The water just barely touches the bottom of the line on the measuring cup.
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Old 03-02-2008, 03:39 PM   #239
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Since I know you've waited with bated breath I won't keep you waiting any longer!

I finally had success today using the Carbalose flour blend! I got 8 good sized rolls. Kevin, I took heed and used the scant 3/4 cup of water and I think that really helped. I also used only 2 tsp. of yeast as your recipe states. I had been just putting in a whole packet of yeast which is 2 1/4 tsp., I don't know how much difference that would make, do you think that could have been part of my problem - too much yeast?

Also, on the packet of yeast it states to mix, knead and then let rest for 10 mins. whereas you say mix, let rest 20 min. and then knead. The yeast packet says the rest after the knead is kind of subbing for the first rise of two-rise yeast breads. Then just shape and let rise and bake. This does all get confusing after a while!

I'm making notes of exactly what I did today and that's what I think I'll stick with but don't be surprised if I'm back asking more questions at some point. I know you, or someone else will do something different that I'll just have to try.

Actually, you already have - that cinnamon bread! Yum! I will be trying that, I even have a bottle of the citrus water.

Last edited by Tweaker Geek; 03-02-2008 at 03:42 PM..
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Old 03-02-2008, 03:58 PM   #240
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I stoped buying the packets of yeast. I bought a jar and found I had better luck using less than whats in the packet. Now I just buy it in 1 lb. bricks and store it in the freezer until I start to get low.
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