Kevins LC Cake or Cookie Flour mix

[jill72]

Originally Posted by Perdita

I have looked high and low, skimmed through the main bread threads/indices, and google'd this, and I can't find this recipe. Is this the same as the dinner roll recipe?

I used his 'final' mix and the bread recipe on p.5 of this thread for my buns:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...l#post12017864

What I did is make up two mixes -- one using Carbquick and one using Carbalose. He had mentioned once that Carbquick produces a softer crust, so I wanted that for my hamburger buns. I sift my Carbquick first to rid it of that funky smell (it's a pain, but it works). I ran out of the Carbquick mix on Sunday and made the buns with Carbalose...they were equally delicious.

Here's a link to his original recipe before he replaced the Resistant Wheat Starch with the Hi-Maize (the bun recipe is practically identical to the bread recipe):

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...ml#post9412819

So sorry for the confusion.

[Perdita]

Thank you very much for taking the time to dig the links up.

[jill72]

I have most of kevinpa's links bookmarked LOL...and use them often

[Perdita]

Well, I thought I'd ordered everything I needed for experimenting with this, but I missed the WPI 8000 and only bought 5000. Would I be courting disaster by using more 5000 in its place?

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by Perdita

Well, I thought I'd ordered everything I needed for experimenting with this, but I missed the WPI 8000 and only bought 5000. Would I be courting disaster by using more 5000 in its place?

perdita 5000 and 8000 do not sub for each other and make a huge difference if you do. you can however sub vital wheat gluten for the 8000 which you can get at most grocery stores.

[Kevinpa]

lol, i was making the same bread as i made in post #164 this evening and during the rise i said "I'll just lay down here on the couch while it rises".

Yea right!!! I woke up 4 hours later to the UGLIEST loaf of bread i have ever made.

It tasted great though.

[Perdita]

Thanks, kevin. I actually have the VWG on hand, although I couldn't really remember why I was buying it at the time, just that I'd seen it on the boards. Thanks!

[jill72]

Originally Posted by Kevinpa

lol, i was making the same bread as i made in post #164 this evening and during the rise i said "I'll just lay down here on the couch while it rises".

Yea right!!! I woke up 4 hours later to the UGLIEST loaf of bread i have ever made.

It tasted great though.

I learned that lesson the hard way, too I almost always do a cold rise in the fridge now because of it.

[2big4mysize]

now that the not sugar is discontinued what can one use to make this mixture?

[SCOTTSDALEJULIE]

Use not starch not not sugar. Julie

[jleblanc]

Hi Kevin I was wondering if arrowroot or guar gum would work as a sub for the thickenThin/not starch? I have all of the other ingredients for your mix and am looking for a sub any ideas?

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by jleblanc

Hi Kevin I was wondering if arrowroot or guar gum would work as a sub for the thickenThin/not starch? I have all of the other ingredients for your mix and am looking for a sub any ideas?

The thickenThin products are a combination of 4 different gums that create a synergy of all their different properties. A single gum may give you a similar result but the question is "how much do you use". I don't have that answer because i don't know the proportions of each gum involved. I know it would not be a 1 for 1 sub and bottom line in the end I don't know what the end results of the flour mix would be.

sorry if thats not much help with your question.

[jleblanc]

I ordered some of the thickner and am just waiting for it. I just wanted you to know what a blessing you are for the rest of us living the lc lifestyle. I am sure you are told all of the time but I wanted you to know I really appreciate all your recipes, tips and tricks.

[jlp2009]

I imagine that somewhere in this thread this may have already been posted, but Kevinpa, does this mix end up being less expensive than carbalose flour or carbquick?
I haven't purchased the ingredients yet, but I would like to try it.

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by jlp2009

I imagine that somewhere in this thread this may have already been posted, but Kevinpa, does this mix end up being less expensive than carbalose flour or carbquick?
I haven't purchased the ingredients yet, but I would like to try it.

I really never did a actual cost analyst on the two but a quick examination of the cost per pound of each ingredient leads me to believe the mix is slightly higher in price than straight carbalose or carbquik but not by much. My bottom line though is the taste difference is well worth that extra cost.

[jlp2009]

I don't mind the taste of either Carbalose or Carbquick but things I have made with CQ do not rise well. I will try your mix instead. I hope you never tire of us newbies with all of our many questions! Thanks again.

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by jlp2009

I don't mind the taste of either Carbalose or Carbquick but things I have made with CQ do not rise well. I will try your mix instead. I hope you never tire of us newbies with all of our many questions! Thanks again.

You will get a much better rise from the mix than either straight carbalose or carbquik. Yeast applications were my intent for it from the very beginning.

[majomor]

hi Kevin, i have followed you for over a year and made many of your recipes, they are truly fabulous....with the exception of the bread at this altitude is very unforgiving.
I just tried today again for the umteenth time what to do now.
I have the Resistant corn starch, the carbalose, the same yeast you use, mix the dough then wait 20mins for the gluten to develop, kneaded for 15 to 20 mins, let rise to almost top of glass dish....etc.

well i read up on high altitude baking with the following suggestions i did:

They suggest adding more water as that helps with the zero humidity , and my dough seemed for the first time to be nice and elastic (about 2-3tbls)

they also suggested room temp water for yeast to work in so i used bottled water in your recipe....(final mx on page 5)

they suggested also a higher oven temp in less time when baking(as at high altitude the bread rises too much too fast then drops before it finishes cooking).....

My old Kitchen Aid professional mixer was 3 years old and it died kneading for 15-20 mins....it literally fell apart.
So this time , i mixed the dough in my bread machine, then shut off for 20mins to rest, then turn back on to knead for 15 mins, then weighed dough.

well i measured the dough at the end (before rising) and was 594 grams which i split into 2 loaves of 297g each greased pan...way less than yours.

it rose to nearly the top (they suggested not to rise fully to the top of the pan for high altitude.

the bread rose while baking at 405degF (they suggested higher than 375 or higher than low altitude baking of yours of 375degF)
but it did not rise as high as i would have expected with the above changes.

i maybe suspect it is the inital 20 min wait before kneading that caused the yeast to give out? (as the suggestion of over rising the yeast at high altitude)

I don't know what to do now, i am stumped???!!

[Kevinpa]

Billie used to have problems I think because of high altitude.....maybe she will see this and have a solution for you.....you seemed to have covered all the same things i have read about it.

[majomor]

thanks for replying Kevin, i guess i will check out Billies/crazywoman posts. Jo-Anne

[majomor]

Billie,
Kevin mentioned that you also had issues with low carb at high altitude with th e pita experiment.
So I tried the #4 carbalose with your adjustments for 3400ft.
I am in western Canada,, Calgary Alberta.....
That loaf is in the oven now, it rose to 1/2inch above the glass loaf pan and not much more as I am looking at it through the glass window baking.
I wondered if you had any more suggestions as I am almost 40percent lower than you in altitude.
I did cut back the liquid by 1/8 cup.
There is one other thing , i used sea salt , and I don't know if that affects the rising(thats all I had).

[JoniBGoode]

Originally Posted by majomor

hi Kevin, i have followed you for over a year and made many of your recipes, they are truly fabulous....with the exception of the bread at this altitude is very unforgiving.they suggested also a higher oven temp in less time when baking(as at high altitude the bread rises too much too fast then drops before it finishes cooking).....

it rose to nearly the top (they suggested not to rise fully to the top of the pan for high altitude.

the bread rose while baking at 405degF (they suggested higher than 375 or higher than low altitude baking of yours of 375degF)
but it did not rise as high as i would have expected with the above changes.

i maybe suspect it is the inital 20 min wait before kneading that caused the yeast to give out? (as the suggestion of over rising the yeast at high altitude)

I don't know what to do now, i am stumped???!!

Majomor -- It's been a really long time since I did high-altitude baking, but I was noticing that all the tweaks you made were to keep the bread from rising too much, too early...and it seems to have not risen enough.

What if you backed off on a few tweaks, and did everything as above but let it rise to the top of the pans, then baked it at 375 degrees?

Because it seems like rising too much too fast is not the problem with this recipe. Just an idea.

[crazywoman-n-wy]

I didn't see this post yesterday, and it scared me. I had replied to your post (on the other thread), and I was afraid it hadn't gone thru! I would nevr have been able to remember everything I had told you before. That reply is here #1101.

Some other things I just thought of reading your post here, and reading JoniBGoode's post,,,,

I am as you said much higher altitude than you even,, I'm at 6200'. But low carb flours just don't react like other flours so a lot of the high altitude tips kinda go out the window. I did however find that I cannot do the 20 minute rest that Kevin said he was doing. (I haven't seen that he is doing that now either, not sure.) I do a 10 - 15 min knead and then shape, let rise to above the pan, and bake. I still bake mine at 350°. I tired the 375° once I think, but prefer the 350° at about 20 - 25 min. (Odd thing is, I used to bake it at 350° for about 40 min. But now am finding it is usually done by abt 25 min. Maybe the corn starch helps it to bake faster, I don't know.
I was REALLY surprised when I had to start using less liquid, because not only am I at a high altitude, but it is extremely dry here, so I expected to have to use more liquid. I know that if it there is too little liquid it doesn't rise well, but if it is too wet it doesn't either. But if it is too wet, it is too sticky to handle.
Again, the only one of the recipes that I personally have had a lot of luck with is the #4. The new recipe using the new mix did fair, but I just wasn't quite as happy with it. I still use the ingredients for the #4, but changing the wheat starch to the corn starch (and for us adding the wheat bran & flax meal == personal taste, and to add fiber). The fiber actually makes it harder to get a rise, but I do usually atain a good rise.
Again, wish I could help more.

[majomor]

JoniBGoode- I see what you mean...I did do it "initially" exactly as Kevin said and it barely even got to the top, without the tweaks....then it dropped, thats why I tried all the tweaks.
But I do see why you said that (yes) it never ever rose to too high that it shrunk , from my message......sooooo maybe that version of Kevins is just not that good for my area??!like Bille found out for hers...hmmmm??!

Then I tried Billie/crazywoman-in-wy's #4, which i did get a rise out of and a good loaf.......but not near as high as hers when I baked it ......sure tasted like good white bread!
Thanks for responing and helping.

Jo-Anne

Crazywoman-n-wy
I got a rise to 1/2 inch above the glass dish and yes only "one" lonely loaf like you did.....tasted good.....but I so so wish I would get a great rise like yours.
One thing though that I thought about when you mentioned about the liquid and the resting issue........

a little bird told me in my head when I was doing the knead in the Bread machine was not to do the 20 min rest so I made a good decision at the time, but another thing I remembered at that time was that the dough looked perfect at 10 mins of actual kneading(excluding mixing) but I thought that (thats just too short a knead time????) maybe I should stop but I continued to 15mins, then the dough looked more shiny kinda tough.............

so in hindsight I am thinking that i could "not" cut back more water, but just stop at the 10 min knead???......so thats my next plan/next loaf.

I sure would like to add the roasted golden flax as that is my favorite, I have each morning in my protein shake for breakfast.
But first things first , I have to get a good rise "first and foremost" before I get ahead of myself!

But there is no way I would get 2 loaves from this dough amount.
thanks for the insight.
I will also try the 350degF.
Jo-Anne

[crazywoman-n-wy]

Jo-Anne, Just wanted to say that the recipe for the #4 bread was never intended for more than 1 loaf. I did used to pinch off some of the dough and make about 4 rolls with it, besides the loaf, but I was using a shorter bread pan then than what I am now, and rarely got much of a rise over the pan. Now I use a longer pan, and usually a higher rise. Funny sometimes the same recipe rises huge, sometimes not so great. That could be due to several things, including the proportion of dry to liquid, the humidity (or atmospheric/barometric pressure) that day, the warmth during rising, rising time,,,, so many things can make the difference.

I've been making a large batch (5X) of the dry ingredients, and sealing in food saver bags, then just add to the wet ingredients in the mixing bowl when I make the bread. Today I took a bag of mix, and made a loaf. Everything was just right today, and I got a beautiful loaf. I think I almost let it rise too long, as it fell ever so slightly after I put it in the oven. Not a lot, but slightly. It is a very light loaf.

I realized I forgot to mention before that I use a proffing box for rising, and have started adding a little extra sugar. Still a small enough amount that I think the yeasties will eat all or most of it. I add about 2 tsp brown sugar (not packed) instead of the 1 tsp sugar.
Here are pics from today. But remember I don't always (don't usually) get this much rise!

[majomor]

Crazywoman-nwy:
I think I will try the brown sugar.....seems like it will help with my rise.

I researched the proofing box, sounds like the way to go as here in Canada, I do not have a warm kitchen....way too many windows and high ceilings in my kitchen, with the french doors being open and shut often to let out the dog, or my husband heading to the barbecue in/out etc

My last rise I used the microwave oven to minimize the temp, but couldn't keep the light on , so used the oven.

what kind of proofing box do you use?
Looks like I will have to get a plastic container from walmart and a light bulb and or cooler to get a makeshift one up and running.

So so many thanks for your advice.

[crazywoman-n-wy]

I actually meant to find the pic I have of my proofing box, and post here, but forgot.
It actually is just a carboard box that was just the right size to put my bread pan in (just a little larger, and tall enough to account for a good rise). I took pics of a loaf of bread that I had made (one of my earlier loaves) (pre bake), and glued to the box, so it wouldn't get thrown out, since it was just the right size. Makes it kinda neat too, but does nothing for the proofing. I placed a catalog in the bottom, as I use this on top of my pellet stove in the winter. Helps to insulate it from too much heat. I do tho place a rack on the stove, and the box on the rack to keep it off the direct heat. When I don't have the stove running, I slightly preheat the oven, use only one rack, and place the box (with the bread) in the oven, keeping the light on if needed.

Hmm I was sure that I had a picture of the proofing box. I can't find it/one right now. I'm too sleepy now (and it's too late) to keep looking, or take one. I'll look more tomorrow, and if I can't find one, I'll take one, and post. But again it isn't fancy. But it does keep away the drafts, and helps regulate the temp. If I used the oven all the time, I probably wouldn't have to use it. But since I have it, I use it in the oven as well as on top of the pellet stove. I place a towel over the top of the box.

I guess if you had a tall enough box, you could place some type of drop light inside it. Had never thought of that. You would need to have a thermometer, and keep an eye on it to make sure it didn't get too hot. (especially the first time till you knew how it did) Maybe even a heating pad, but I think I'd want a rack between the pad & the bread pan.

[crazywoman-n-wy]

OK, I couldn't find a pic, so I took some this morning.
This is on my pellet stove as I would use it (in the winter when pellet stove is going). During times that I don't have the pellet stove going, I put only 1 rack in my oven, and place the rack in the bottom position (or when the box will fit in oven), heating for a few seconds then turning off before putting box in. (The brown edges you see on the bottom is where I forgot to turn the oven off once before placing the box in. )

You can of course use a box without the pics!

[Beeb]

Can't afford the not/starch so now what do I do?

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by beeb

Can't afford the not/starch so now what do I do?

Beeb, i think somebody asked this question a while back and the problem is that in all my experiments with flour mixes and bread making the only thing I ever used was not/Sugar and not/Starch. At the time I was asked the question I suggested that maybe some other single gum could be subbed but since I have never tried it I would have no idea how much to tell you to use. I would be confident in saying though that you would not want to use a 1 for 1 measure when making the substitution.