Just a Simple White Bread Thread

[Midnight]

Originally Posted by Kevinpa

Progress Report

Yesterday I made some bread using the following ingredients.

The results were:

2 loaves (total 30 slices) 2.5 carb 52 calories each.

nice crust
mild taste
center slightly more aerated than I like(I need to get it a bit more dense in the center).
I'm getting there.


1 cup Calorie Countdown milk
2 Large eggs
2 Tbs butter
1/2 tsp salt
1/8 cup wheat protein isolate 8000
1/2 cup carbalose
2 cup wheat protein isolate 5000
1/8 cup Resistant Wheat Starch 75
1 Tbs not/Sugar
1/8 tsp splenda quick pack
1/2 tsp baking powder
1 tsp sugar
1 packet rapid rise yeast
7/8 cup King Arthur white whole wheat

Kevin, how long did you let this rise? is the temp 350-375 for 30-35 min like the last recipe?

[Midnight]

Forgot to mention, I am making loaf not buns

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by Midnight

Kevin, how long did you let this rise? is the temp 350-375 for 30-35 min like the last recipe?

I rarely time my bread rise anymore. If I were to guess, I think it was about 1 hr 30 min or slightly longer. That time and temperature is a good general area but I always start checking at 25 mins since ovens vary so much.

[Midnight]

I made the latest white whole wheat with Carbalose flour and couldn't get it to raise. I want to experiment today so thought you master bakers might have some tips as to what might cause it not to rise.
I followed the recipe exactly except my white whole wheat flour is not King Arther. It is organic whole white winter wheat flour from the health food store. I have fresh yeast, Freischmann's rapid rise yeast. I did use bread machine to mix
the dough. I use corning ware baking pan, don't know if that matters. I placed it out of drafts in m.W.oven. at 1 hr it had not raised at all so I took it out and placed on top of stove where it was warm and raised some. After 3 hours I went ahead and baked it because it was not raising anymore. It turned out about 2" tall. The taste was fine. I haven't had much luck, my other trys weren't to hot but but I am determined to make this work.

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by Midnight

I made the latest white whole wheat with Carbalose flour and couldn't get it to raise. I want to experiment today so thought you master bakers might have some tips as to what might cause it not to rise.
I followed the recipe exactly except my white whole wheat flour is not King Arther. It is organic whole white winter wheat flour from the health food store. I have fresh yeast, Freischmann's rapid rise yeast. I did use bread machine to mix
the dough. I use corning ware baking pan, don't know if that matters. I placed it out of drafts in m.W.oven. at 1 hr it had not raised at all so I took it out and placed on top of stove where it was warm and raised some. After 3 hours I went ahead and baked it because it was not raising anymore. It turned out about 2" tall. The taste was fine. I haven't had much luck, my other trys weren't to hot but but I am determined to make this work.

Two things,
What is the protein count of that flour you are using?
What elevation do you live at?

[Midnight]

Kevin,
the protein count is 5 Grams for 1/4 cup (35 grams) and I live in the mile high city of Denver. about 5400

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by Midnight

Kevin,
the protein count is 5 Grams for 1/4 cup (35 grams) and I live in the mile high city of Denver. about 5400

Midnight, that is not at all what I expected to hear. High altitude baking usually has the opposite problem as you. Because of the low humidity and air pressure, bread will rise too fast and then tend to fall. If I were to try and make a guess, my first suggestion would be to try another wheat flour. The flour you are using has about 20% more protein per cup than the KA flour and is about 15% heavier making me believe that it is also coarser.

Have you made any other variations of my bread and if so, did they rise OK for you?

Lastly, if you noticed, the baking powder was reduced in this last recipe and although it did take it longer to rise for me....it still did. You may want to increase that amount back to 2 tsp. and see if that works better for you.

Sorry but other than those stabs in the dark and not being able to see your process or what the dough looks like it is very hard to know what to tell you.

[crazywoman-n-wy]

[COLOR=Red]Midnight, another thought is that you may need to heat our oven (reg oven, not MW) to the lowest temp for just a very short time. Just barely warm. Put your dough in to rise, then take out & heat oven to cooking temp before baking.
I live just outside of Cheyenne, and I'm at about 6200 feet. I had problems with the bread for a while too. I too had a hard time getting it to rise. (not this recipe)
I haven't tried this one yet. Haven't gotten the KA white whole wheat yet, but I might get some and try one of these days.
I got some of the instant rise yeast at Sams, and I've usually gotten some great rises from Kevin's other bread with it. But again I always had it in a very warm (Not hot) place to rise. You can find some pics in some of the earlier posts.
The last loaf I made didn't rise as well, but I think I got too much fiber in it. I have been putting flaxmeal and or wheat bran in mine. I like that better than just the white. I think I got too much last time. Now I can't remember just what I did to it. I'm due to make another loaf. Will probably make one this coming week. But I doubt it will be the white whole wheat yet.
Ahhhh, I think I remember what I did different with that last loaf of bread. I was low on eggs, and think I used powdered egg whites or pwd whole eggs. I don't think I got enough liquid in the dough. I had better stick to fresh eggs. By jove I think that's what it was (and maybe a little too much of the flax & bran as well.)
[/COLOR]

[Midnight]

Thanks Kevin and Billie I will try your suggestions
I have made the newer versions with carbquick and the two new Carblose versions. I did get a rise, not as nice as your pictures but then flattened out. I was using old wpi 5000 so I bought fresh for the last recipe.
Kevin, I will try KA, what is the protein count on that? I checked the their website but could not find their nutritional information.

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by Midnight

Thanks Kevin and Billie I will try your suggestions
I have made the newer versions with carbquick and the two new Carblose versions. I did get a rise, not as nice as your pictures but then flattened out. I was using old wpi 5000 so I bought fresh for the last recipe.
Kevin, I will try KA, what is the protein count on that? I checked the their website but could not find their nutritional information.

The KA white whole wheat flour is 100 calories .5 fat 18 carbs 3 fiber 4 protein for 1/4 cup (30g).

[Kevinpa]

One more suggestion Midnight. When you get ready to make the bread try this with your liquid ingredients.

Put you eggs in you mixer first and mix just to combine(you don't want them cold).
Then in a small nonstick sauce pan heat your milk with the butter in it on medium low just until the butter is melted. Do not let it boil or get too hot. You just want it to melt the butter but be cool enough to pour into the eggs without concern of cooking te eggs. Then add your flour. I do not always do this step but have found when I do I get a better rise.

[Midnight]

My bread making experiences to date-- I followed Kevin and Billie tips and now I have a few questions.I am using Kevins latest 2 loaf recipe.

1-I finally got it to raise but then it fell. It puffed up real nice then started to deflate. what would cause this?
2- How tacky should the dough be? With my different experiments in has been from a smooth formed surface to so tacky I couldn't get it out of the bread machine without oiling or dusting my hands. (I think it has to do with the weight of the WW flour? I've tryed several with lower protein per your suggestion Kevin)
3- If I need more dry ingredients because it is too tacky, should I add WPI5000 or more wheat flour?
4- After I take it from the mixer should I roll it around a little on the table to smooth out the surface or should I just divide it and just lay it in the pan? When I do that it has an uneven looking surface.
5- I am oiling the pan with Pam, is that okay?
6- Should I cover it with a towel or something while it is raising? I know with traditional bread making that is what I used to do but I know LC bread making is a different.
7- Billie, I tryed the method of pre-warming the oven 10 min. (170) and turning it off and letting the bread raise there. Is it possible the oven got too warm?
I think that is enough questions for right now. Your ideas are appreciated.Thanks

[crazywoman-n-wy]

[COLOR=Red]I'll have to let Kevin (or someone else) answer those questions, as I'm not a breadmaking expert. I had never had any luck with yeast breads till Kevin's recipes.

But I do know that if it is too tacky, it needs more flour. I'll let Kevin or someone advise on which to add. Also, I haven't made this bread yet.

It does sound tho, like to rose too much so then fell. May be the altitude or (actually and/or) the oven may have been too warm. Don't let the oven stay on too long before you turn it off. You don't want it to get to 170, but this is usually about the lowest setting. Just turn it on to start it to heat, and turn it off pretty quickly. Then turn on the oven light to maintain a low (lower than 170) heat. (Don't let it prewarm for 10 min.)

Oh, one more thought. Does your bread machine go thru 2 rising cycles (most do). If so catch it after the first knead, before it rises. Low carb breads tend to not do well with 2 rises.

Next (advise giver that is)............

[/COLOR]

[Midnight]

Thanks Billie, I put my bread machine on dough cycle and pull it out after it is done mixing. I also wondered about the oven temp. Unfortunately I don't have a light switch on my oven. The door opening controls the light.
One thing I just thought of is I opened a new can of baking powder. That may have had something to do with the rise. I don't know if there is a way to test BP to see if it is dead. Thanks

[Nigel]

Originally Posted by Midnight

Thanks Billie, I put my bread machine on dough cycle and pull it out after it is done mixing. I also wondered about the oven temp. Unfortunately I don't have a light switch on my oven. The door opening controls the light.
One thing I just thought of is I opened a new can of baking powder. That may have had something to do with the rise. I don't know if there is a way to test BP to see if it is dead. Thanks

Just add 1 teaspoon of baking powder to 1 cup of hot (not tepid or warm) water. The more bubbles you see, the more active the powder is. No bubbles? Time for a visit to the grocery store.

[Midnight]

Billie I forgot to ask you which version of Kevins bread you are using that you are having success with in Wyoming?

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by Midnight

1-I finally got it to raise but then it fell. It puffed up real nice then started to deflate. what would cause this?

As Billie said, this is typical of what happens at high altitudes when your bread rises to fast and then deflates because there is too much air in the bread. Oat flour will do that also if you have the wrong flour mix. If you look back in this thread i have a picture of of a loaf of oat bread that did that.
Bread makers suggest that cutting back on the yeast to eliminate this problem. I would start by 1/4 the amount to start. The other suggestion they have is to not use rapid or instant rise yeast but that is a double edged sword as in my experience regular yeast does not work well on low carb bread. I guess you could always try it at your altitude and see.

Originally Posted by Midnight

2- How tacky should the dough be? With my different experiments in has been from a smooth formed surface to so tacky I couldn't get it out of the bread machine without oiling or dusting my hands. (I think it has to do with the weight of the WW flour? I've tryed several with lower protein per your suggestion Kevin)

My best discription is the dough needs to be tacky but not sticky. By that I mean that when you pull your hand away from the dough it should stick but snap away without any of the dough staying on your hand.

Originally Posted by Midnight

3- If I need more dry ingredients because it is too tacky, should I add WPI5000 or more wheat flour?

I have always used WPI 5000 to add when my dough was too wet(sticky). The key difference is I use a stand mixer and can get the texture to what I want it to be by adding to the bowl before I have to handle the dough. I have never made any part of this bread in a bread machine.

Originally Posted by Midnight

4- After I take it from the mixer should I roll it around a little on the table to smooth out the surface or should I just divide it and just lay it in the pan? When I do that it has an uneven looking surface.

I just shape the loaf the best I can in my hands before putting it into the baking dish.

Originally Posted by Midnight

5- I am oiling the pan with Pam, is that okay?

I always spray my dish and then wipe it with a paper towel so its evenly covered with a thin layer.

Originally Posted by Midnight

6- Should I cover it with a towel or something while it is raising? I know with traditional bread making that is what I used to do but I know LC bread making is a different.

I don't cover mine. As long as it's draft free that is all it needs. The towel trick is more about HC bread using regular yeast to insure they stay warm.

Originally Posted by Midnight

7- Billie, I tryed the method of pre-warming the oven 10 min. (170) and turning it off and letting the bread raise there. Is it possible the oven got too warm?

Depending on the weather, I will preheat my oven to the lowest temp. but turn it off well before it reaches the set temp. You just want to knock off the chill and don't want it to be anywhere near a temp that would start to bake the dough.

HTH

[crazywoman-n-wy]

[COLOR=Red]Midnight, I've been using Kevin's Carbalose #4 recipe. Post [/COLOR]#247 .[COLOR=Red]
(I'm using instant yeast from Sams. I'm getting better results with that than the other yeasts I had. Course it could possibly be that the other was just too old. They would proof, but just didn't get a great rise.[/COLOR][COLOR=Red] I use abt 2tsp of the instant.[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]) I usually ad about 1/8 cup each wheat bran & flax meal to it.

[/COLOR]

[Midnight]

Originally Posted by crazywoman-n-wy

[COLOR=Red]Midnight, I've been using Kevin's Carbalose #4 recipe. Post [/COLOR]#247 .[COLOR=Red]
(I'm using instant yeast from Sams. I'm getting better results with that than the other yeasts I had. Course it could possibly be that the other was just too old. They would proof, but just didn't get a great rise.[/COLOR][COLOR=Red] I use abt 2tsp of the instant.[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]) I usually ad about 1/8 cup each wheat bran & flax meal to it.

[/COLOR]

Thanks Billie for your help, do you delete 1/8 cup of anything to make up the diffence or is the bran or flax in additon to? I'll give this a shot next week.

[crazywoman-n-wy]

[COLOR=Red]You're welcome Midnight! I usually don't leave anything else out, cause mine for some reason is usually too moist made as recipe states. But I would suggest that you take out 1/8 cup of either carbalose or WPI 5000, then add back if needed when you try adding it. It is a little trickier when using a bread machine, but you can watch it, and check to see if it is too tacky or wet, before the machine finishes its knead. (At least with the one that I had used you could.) If it is too wet, add some more of whatever you took out, then if still too wet, add more WPI. I'm thinking part of your problem is you needed more dry ingredients anyway, but that's just a guess.
Before I started adding the bran (& flax) I had to leave out about 1/8 cup liquid, or I'd have to add way too much WPI to it. Some people have actually needed to either add more liquid or less WPI to the original amounts in their area.

I really need to make a loaf of bread soon.
[/COLOR]

[lisabinil]

Just made the #1 in my breadmaker with a change. I only had 1/4 c of the WPI 8000 left and subbed an extra 1/2 c of the WPI 5000. I did not use the rapid rise yeast but used a pkt of Red Star Active Dry Yeast. I put it through the white cycle, 1.5 lb loaf w/light crust and it came out great even with the extra kneads and rises.

[ItsTheWooo]

Kevin, I really want to make this bread recipe: Just a Simple White Bread Thread

I just got a kitchen aid artisan so I am excited to finally be able to make all the breads that require kneeding and stuff .

I'm a bit of a bread newbie and I've messed up well enough yeast breads to know that I should ask first before trying lol (the only thing that came out good for me was your cinnamon rolls - which didn't rise quite as high as yours but they DID rise and taste good which is the important thing ).

I was wondering if you could provide instructions for how to assemble this bread (bake times, when to do what etc).
Should I just follow your instructions for the popular carablose #4 only with the ingredients for your latest bread?

Also one more question... I really want to make a cinnamon swirl type sliced bread (for making french toast or eating PB on). Would it be possible to make half the bread white, then add cinnamon afterward and make the other half cinnamon? And, any suggestions for how to get "swirls" of cinnamon in a loaf bread?

Thanks kevin for all your help and TONS of great recipes,
Nora

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo

I was wondering if you could provide instructions for how to assemble this bread (bake times, when to do what etc).
Should I just follow your instructions for the popular carablose #4 only with the ingredients for your latest bread?

Also one more question... I really want to make a cinnamon swirl type sliced bread (for making french toast or eating PB on). Would it be possible to make half the bread white, then add cinnamon afterward and make the other half cinnamon? And, any suggestions for how to get "swirls" of cinnamon in a loaf bread?
Nora

Nora, the process for all the simple white breads is the same. The instruction #4 would be the same as the bread you listed.

As far as cinnamon swirl bread, I would roll the dough out flat after the knead and sprinkle with whatever cinnamon you are going to use, then roll the covered dough into a log folding the ends under to form a loaf....then let it rise.

[chrismiss]

I've made #1 and #4 with and without the cake and cookie flour mix.

I am at sea level and I get great rises out of bread machine yeast.
The machine does the kneading, and I have a machine where I can see
through the lid, rarely I have to add a bit more flour. I preheat my oven
to about 145 degrees and then shut it off. By the time the bread is ready
to remove from the machine, I get it shaped and place it in the bread pan,place in oven and wait for it to rise. It rarely takes more than 45 minutes to rise to double. I have had very great success without changing Kevin's
recipe. I do think that being a mile high may present problems. Right now
I am at Lake Tahoe, but I do not have my low carb flours with me so cannot
make bread here. I did make squash pie and pumpkin and they both came
out beautiful. Hope you find out how to make this wonderful bread.

barbo

[ItsTheWooo]

Bread came out okay but it didn't rise well, same problem I always have. It tastes kind of sour, too.

I figure if I used milk instead of carb countdown that would be enough sugar. So I didn't use the tsp of sugar indicated...figure I would use real milk and skip the sugar, since real milk has sugar in it.

Do yeast feed off of lactose? This could be the problem. It might also explain why all of my yeast bread come out tasting sour and beer like.

)+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
EDIT: found answer. yeast lack beta galactosidase (lactase).
I imagine the sour taste must have something to do with yeasties not having sugar to eat.


Yeast and Lactose
Question - Our class performed an experiment where yeast was placed
into 2 tubes, one containing glucose and the other containing
lactose. Growth occured in the tube with glucose and a gas bubble formed
indicating the yeast was able to perform fermentation. No growth however
occured in the tube with lactose and i dont understand why? is it because
the yeast was unable to break the lactose down into glucose?
---------------------------------------
Yes. There is an enzyme, beta-galactosidase or lactase, that breaks lactose
down into glucose + galactose. If the yeast don't produce this enzyme, they
are unable to use lactose as a carbon and energy source.

Ron Baker, Ph.D.

[ItsTheWooo]

also just learned that because yeast do not eat lactose at all, the sugars tend to carmelize making bread harder and darker.

And this would explain why my bread is very dark and more like an italian roll than a white bread.

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo

Bread came out okay but it didn't rise well, same problem I always have. It tastes kind of sour, too.

I figure if I used milk instead of carb countdown that would be enough sugar. So I didn't use the tsp of sugar indicated....

Quite a few people omit the sugar convincing themselves of all the bad things that will happen to them if they include it. The chemical fact is, that amount of yeast feeding on 1 tsp of sugar will render it basically inert.

Without sufficient food (from the sugar)for the yeast to eat, a good rise becomes a crap shoot (hit or miss) to see if they can find enough food in other ingredients to produce the gas needed to make bread rise.

[Kevinpa]

Used EVOO instead of butter and omitted the baking powder.
Kneaded 10 minutes.
90 minute rise.
Baked @ 350 for 30 minutes.
2 loaves (total 30 slices) 2.5 carb 52 calories each.

LC Wheat Bread
1 cup Calorie Countdown milk
2 Large eggs
2 Tbs EVOO
1/2 tsp salt
1/8 cup wheat protein isolate 8000
1/2 cup carbalose
2 cup wheat protein isolate 5000
1/8 cup Resistant Wheat Starch 75
1 Tbs not/Sugar
1/8 tsp splenda quick pack
1 tsp sugar
1 packet rapid rise yeast
7/8 cup King Arthur traditional whole wheat

[Yummy's_Girl]

Originally Posted by Midnight

I made the latest white whole wheat with Carbalose flour and couldn't get it to raise. I want to experiment today so thought you master bakers might have some tips as to what might cause it not to rise.
I followed the recipe exactly except my white whole wheat flour is not King Arther. It is organic whole white winter wheat flour from the health food store. I have fresh yeast, Freischmann's rapid rise yeast. I did use bread machine to mix
the dough. I use corning ware baking pan, don't know if that matters. I placed it out of drafts in m.W.oven. at 1 hr it had not raised at all so I took it out and placed on top of stove where it was warm and raised some. After 3 hours I went ahead and baked it because it was not raising anymore. It turned out about 2" tall. The taste was fine. I haven't had much luck, my other trys weren't to hot but but I am determined to make this work.

Mine didnt rise much either, but it tasted great!

After reading here, I realize now that my dough was too sticky. But I wasnt sure how it was suppsoed to be, so I went ahead with it. At least I know, that was the problem, or at least one of the problems.

[helens]

I'm new to the LC Friends, but learning fast! DH has type 2 diabetes and we've both dropped over 40 lbs in the past 5 months by going LC! Now I'm very excited to find the recipes and help posted here.

Bread seems to be the one thing I've missed the most, but we tried your "Pizza Dough from Rolls" recipe last night and I must say we were thrilled! Thanks so much for that recipe! I can't seem to find it on here again no matter how long I look. I didn't save it the first time, just printed it and want to add it to my recipe folder as I'd sure hate to lose it!

The dough seemed a bit moist after removing it from my KitchenAid dough hook, but when I stretched it in the pan all went well. The texture was great, although it had a very light spongy texture in the center but was completely cooked. I'm wondering if I could/should have partially baked it before filling it. I used the Bella Vita roasted garlic sauce, then topped with pepperoni, chopped onioins, chopped red bell peppers and mozzarella cheesse, and baked it about 16 minutes at 425º. It was very filling and satisfying!

DH & I are both THRILLED to have guilt-free pizza! The best part was that it re-heated for breakfast just fine in the toaster oven on the toast setting. I could get into trouble here! Thanks again for your efforts! I look forward to browsing your web site recipes, also!