Just a Simple White Bread Thread

[jackieba]

I'm more sensitive to the taste of the WPI 5000 than I am the WPI 8000 or Carbalose which is why I prefer the Carbalose bread #1 over the #4. You may need to experiment cutting back on the WPI 5000 a little at a time, increasing the Carbalose till you get one your husband likes but I would make the change in small increments. The WPI 5000 helps with rising so you do need some. I do make those kind of tweaks but I go by weight so I have the same total weight of "flours" each time; if going by volume you may need to adjust your liquids (feel the dough as it's kneading to make sure it's not too dry or too sticky). Also keep in mind that the Carbalose has more carbs than the WPI so adjust that also. When I used the #4 for pizza dough, I thought it had a weird taste so second time I add a little more Resistant Wheat Starch since it's a neutral flavor (and less WPI 5000) and that helped with the taste.

[Kevinpa]

Jackie is absolutely right. When I first started making this bread I was searching for a blueprint for a LC bread that worked. Up until that point nothing I tried even resembled real bread. I try weekly in an attempt to improve both taste and texture. What I have found in my experiments though is if I start from the blueprint, which is carbalose #1, this is a pretty forgiving recipe and with a minimal amount of tweaking most should be able to find a LC bread that suits them.

[CreekWatcher]

Originally Posted by jackieba

I'm more sensitive to the taste of the WPI 5000 than I am the WPI 8000 or Carbalose which is why I prefer the Carbalose bread #1 over the #4. You may need to experiment cutting back on the WPI 5000 a little at a time, increasing the Carbalose till you get one your husband likes but I would make the change in small increments. The WPI 5000 helps with rising so you do need some. I do make those kind of tweaks but I go by weight so I have the same total weight of "flours" each time; if going by volume you may need to adjust your liquids (feel the dough as it's kneading to make sure it's not too dry or too sticky). Also keep in mind that the Carbalose has more carbs than the WPI so adjust that also. When I used the #4 for pizza dough, I thought it had a weird taste so second time I add a little more Resistant Wheat Starch since it's a neutral flavor (and less WPI 5000) and that helped with the taste.

Jackieba, I'm with you as far as being sensitive to the taste of WPI 5000, and not nearly as much to that of Carbalose; Kevin's recipe rises like a dream, yet it's not for me as is because of that...I wondered (because I've been too lazy to start experimenting yet, and have been making waffle bread--which is excellent--instead) if you might share the recipe for one of your lower-WPI variations?

[jackieba]

I'm not sensitive to the 8000 so that makes a diff too. Basically I've been happiest with variations of Carbalose #1. I go by weight and generally use about 40% Carbalose, 25% WPI 8000, 20% WPI 5000 and 15% RWS. But if you're sensitive to the 8000 too then you could reduce that and increase the Carbalose. I make changes in increments of about 5% of the total weight of the flours. I experimented with the #4 but never really was thrilled with it so I don't still have that info. I will say I have not yet found a pizza crust combination that I really liked taste and texture-wise but I'm real picky on pizza.

[stephdray]

Originally Posted by Kevinpa

Jackie is absolutely right. When I first started making this bread I was searching for a blueprint for a LC bread that worked. Up until that point nothing I tried even resembled real bread. I try weekly in an attempt to improve both taste and texture. What I have found in my experiments though is if I start from the blueprint, which is carbalose #1, this is a pretty forgiving recipe and with a minimal amount of tweaking most should be able to find a LC bread that suits them.

This is a great thing to know, Kevin. I'll attempt a Carbalose #1 and tweak the proportions of WPI to my husband's tastes. I want to thank you personally for all of your efforts on this, not just because of the time and energy you put out in helping others for free, but because you are making a real change in people's lives.

I can't tell you how many times I have been tempted to cheat by some high carb recipe only to realize that with some ingenuity, I could make one of your low carb versions that would save my family's health. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

White bread is a staple of our modern lives, and your efforts in this thread make you one of my heroes

[CreekWatcher]

I'm not sensitive to the 8000 so that makes a diff too. Basically I've been happiest with variations of Carbalose #1. I go by weight and generally use about 40% Carbalose, 25% WPI 8000, 20% WPI 5000 and 15% RWS. But if you're sensitive to the 8000 too then you could reduce that and increase the Carbalose. I make changes in increments of about 5% of the total weight of the flours. I experimented with the #4 but never really was thrilled with it so I don't still have that info. I will say I have not yet found a pizza crust combination that I really liked taste and texture-wise but I'm real picky on pizza.
__________________
Jackie

...thanks, Jackie, I'll use (and tweek) your formula.
...and, like Stehpdray, want to say thanks again to Kevin.

[jackieba]

Creekwatcher:
If you like breadsticks, that's what we have with dinner most days and I add granulated garlic, oregano and basil to the dough. Seasonings like that help with the flavor too. I never had any luck with the vanilla like some folks do.

[Kevinpa]

I have a large group of high and low carb friends coming over for a Labor Day picnic and decided to try a tweak my wheat bun recipe for the occasion.

Although this may not something to have on a daily basis, it is by far the best tasting and texture of any yeast recipe I have made yet.


It makes 16 buns or slices @ 4.68 carbs each.
Carbalose Wheat Buns or Bread

* 1 cup warm CC milk
* 2 large eggs
* 2 Tbsp. butter
* 1/2 Tsp. kosher salt
* 1/8 cup wheat protein isolate 8000
* 3/4 cup Carbalose
* 5/8 cup 100% whole grain whole wheat flour
* 2 cup wheat protein isolate 5000
* 1/8 cup Resistant Wheat Starch 70
* 1 Tbls. not/Sugar
* 1/8 Tsp. splenda quick pack
* 2 Tsp. baking powder
* 1 Tsp. sugar
* 1 packet rapid rise yeast

Combine all the dry ingredient in a glass mixing bowl.
Then put the wet ingredients in an electric mixing bowl.
With the paddle, mix the wet for about 1 minute on low then add the dry mixing till well combined.
Change the paddle for the dough hook and knead with the hook for 8 to 10 min until the dough pulles away from the sides of the mixing bowl and climbs up the hook.
Weigh dough and divide the weight by 16.
Weigh the dough into 1/16ths and form into bun shape and place 8 into lightly greased 9 x 13 baking dish.
Let rise for 1 hour in a warm draft free place till dough doubles in size.
Preheat oven to 375 degrees.
Place baking dishes on middle rack in preheated oven and bake 20 to 25 mins or until golden brown.

Nutrition per serving
-------------------------------------
Calories: 98.06
Calories From Fat: 29.56
Total Fat: 3.48g
Saturated Fat: 1.3g
Cholesterol: 31.50mg
Sodium: 173.13mg
Potassium: 17.67mg
Total Carbohydrates: 8.10g
Fiber: 3.42g
Net Carbohydrates 4.68g
Protein: 10.54g

[clyde]

Those look fantastic Kevin. At first glance, I thought it looked like a White Castle burger - but then I realized it was pepperoni/salami...whatever. With a little burger on there....it would totally pass for a White Castle.

I think I might make this my new "blueprint" and when I'm off of induction again, I want to make these the first thing I try. I just found some of that Big Sky's Flour Ginny was talking about and I'm dying to try it on something and this just might be the perfect thing. Maybe replacing the whole wheat with it the first go round to see where I need to go.

Thanks as always. You make this not a diet!

[stephdray]

I didn't want to spam this thread with my experimentations, given that they are amateurish and going possibly in a different direction than Kevin's, but I thought I'd mention the new thread I started on Experiments with "Just a Simple White Bread" for the WPI Intolerant because I also report back on my experience making Kevin's latest wheat rolls.

[Yummy's_Girl]

how much pleading do we have to do, to get this to be a sticky thread?

[crazywoman-n-wy]

[COLOR=red]Sammi, Kevin has a link to it in his recipe sticky. It's the first one in there. When they get put in the regular stickies I lose them. I never think to look there. [/COLOR]

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...ipe-links.html [COLOR=red]It's a sticky on the first page of this forum.[/COLOR]

[Midnight]

Kevin, I have a few question about your #879 recipe.I am ready to try the bread now.

If I am baking bread instead of rolls what would the temp. and time be?
That is the differance between resist starch 70 and resist starch 75 that I have seen in a few of your other recipes?
What is the benifit of the kosher salt versus regular salt?
Can the WPI 5000 get stale? Mine is a few years old (was from Trish)but has been in airtight container in cool dark place. It has a strong ordor.
midnight

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by Midnight

Kevin, I have a few question about your #879 recipe.I am ready to try the bread now.

If I am baking bread instead of rolls what would the temp. and time be?
That is the difference between resist starch 70 and resist starch 75 that I have seen in a few of your other recipes?
What is the benefit of the kosher salt versus regular salt?
Can the WPI 5000 get stale? Mine is a few years old (was from Trish)but has been in airtight container in cool dark place. It has a strong odor.
midnight

350 to 375 for 30 to 35 mins should do for the bread. I usually let the color be my guide. But all ovens are different so when it gets near 30 mins you need to start watching it.

They used to make RWS 70 which had 70% fiber in it then they reformulated it to have 75% fiber. For all intent and purpose they are identical and either can be used with little to no discernible difference.

Some people like the taste of kosher salt better. I happen to be one of them. My second preference is sea salt.

If it were me and I had WPI that had been sitting around anywhere for a couple of years, with a strong odor.......It would be in the garbage. JMO.

[Midnight]

Yes! in the garbage it goes. Thanks Kevin

[lisabinil]

Ok I'm no longer a lc bread baking virgin-I have taken the plunge and have #4 rising as I post! I am an avid regular bread baker and am highly curious to see how it will turn out. I will post with my results.

[lisabinil]

I have made #4 (kids scarfed the whole loaf hot out of the oven ) and #1 last night. I will make these again but will not use the rapid rise yeast. #4 was ok but #1 rose too much and this throws the texture off. I never use the rapid rise yeast much even when I bake high carb. Very good breads KevinPa!

[stephdray]

Originally Posted by lisabinil

I have made #4 (kids scarfed the whole loaf hot out of the oven ) and #1 last night. I will make these again but will not use the rapid rise yeast. #4 was ok but #1 rose too much and this throws the texture off. I never use the rapid rise yeast much even when I bake high carb. Very good breads KevinPa!

Can you describe what you think the rapid rise yeast does to the texture?

[lisabinil]

Originally Posted by stephdray

Can you describe what you think the rapid rise yeast does to the texture?

The second loaf over-rose which is often a problem with rapid rise yeast. I even shortened the rise time so it only doubled in size but it ballooned in the oven. A solution would be to use less of the rapid rise but I'd just rather use the regular yeast. The texture is different-more chewy. I've had this problem before with using it and much prefer the regular rise yeast.

[stephdray]

Originally Posted by lisabinil

The second loaf over-rose which is often a problem with rapid rise yeast. I even shortened the rise time so it only doubled in size but it ballooned in the oven. A solution would be to use less of the rapid rise but I'd just rather use the regular yeast. The texture is different-more chewy. I've had this problem before with using it and much prefer the regular rise yeast.

I thought a higher rise meant a less dense, less chewy and more tender bread. Now I'm confused.

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by lisabinil

A solution would be to use less of the rapid rise but I'd just rather use the regular yeast. The texture is different-more chewy. I've had this problem before with using it and much prefer the regular rise yeast.

What are you calling regular yeast Lisa?
I have used active dry yeast, rapid rise yeast and instant yeast. The active dry yeast needs proofed and will give you a very poor rise and a very dense bread with the low carb flours. The instant yeast is somewhere in the middle of the active dry and rapid rise and works better with this bread. JMO

[lisabinil]

I will try the Instant next time Kevin. I normally use the active dry when baking in the oven and the bread machine yeast (has ascorbic acid added) when I used my breadmaker. The second loaf definitely rose too much-I put it in the oven after 40 min and it still expanded while baking. I have one more pkt of the rapid and will maybe try again and take out 1/8 to 1/4 tsp to see how it works.

[vonnygirl]

I had tried the LC bread recipes with regular active dry yeast. It didn't rise hardly at all-I don't believe there is enough carbs in the dough to support a longer rise. I have only had great success with the rapid rise. When my dough looks like its rising quickly, which has happened a cuple of times I just bake it off sooner and that usually takes care of that.

[lisabinil]

I did that and it mushroomed in the oven. I must have had some seriously fresh yeast.

[Kevinpa]

Progress Report

Yesterday I made some bread using the following ingredients.

The results were:

2 loaves (total 30 slices) 2.5 carb 52 calories each.

nice crust
mild taste
center slightly more aerated than I like(I need to get it a bit more dense in the center).
I'm getting there.


1 cup Calorie Countdown milk
2 Large eggs
2 Tbs butter
1/2 tsp salt
1/8 cup wheat protein isolate 8000
1/2 cup carbalose
2 cup wheat protein isolate 5000
1/8 cup Resistant Wheat Starch 75
1 Tbs not/Sugar
1/8 tsp splenda quick pack
1/2 tsp baking powder
1 tsp sugar
1 packet rapid rise yeast
7/8 cup King Arthur white whole wheat

[stephdray]

Originally Posted by Kevinpa

Progress Report

1 cup Calorie Countdown milk
2 Large eggs
2 Tbs butter
1/2 tsp salt
1/8 cup wheat protein isolate 8000
1/2 cup carbalose
2 cup wheat protein isolate 5000
1/8 cup Resistant Wheat Starch 75
1 Tbs not/Sugar
1/8 tsp splenda quick pack
1/2 tsp baking powder
1 tsp sugar
1 packet rapid rise yeast
7/8 cup King Arthur white whole wheat

Kevin, these loaves look great, and I'm wowed by the low carb count in spite of the wheat flour. As you know, I've had some problems with sensitivity to the WPI taste, but when I made your last whole wheat recipe to make hamburger buns, they were the best version I tried, and my sister was impressed. In light of that, I have a few questions about this new recipe.

1. I'm wondering what purpose the 1/8th cup WPI 8000 serves as such a small percentage of the overall flour in the recipe.
2. You've written that this amounts to about 30 slices--how many rolls or buns do you think this would make? (I'm trying to estimate the carb count.)

[vonnygirl]

could I use regular whole wheat flour? I have never heard of King Arthur flour. If so would that affect the carb/calorie count? Those loaves look soooo good, and now that I have to watch cals lately too, 52 calories sounds fantastic! One more question, is it hard to get 15 slices out of each loaf? I never had much luck slicing my homemade bread and end up with these giagantic thick slices!
Thanks for your time!
Vonny

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by stephdray

I'm wowed by the low carb count in spite of the wheat flour.

Its all in the rise Steph. When I find a mix with a good rise, one of the first things I will always do is mix up a batch, split the dough in half and see if a 2 hour rise will give me 2 regular size loaves. This White whole wheat flour makes that kind of a rise possible. I have gotten a few mixtures in the past where the rise was good enough to reach a 2 loaf state but it was never able to hold the rise through the baking process without deflating.

Originally Posted by stephdray

1. I'm wondering what purpose the 1/8th cup WPI 8000 serves as such a small percentage of the overall flour in the recipe.

It provides needed glutten. Its a pay me now or pay me later later situation. You can get it from the wpi 8000 or pay the piper with some other higher carb sub.

Originally Posted by stephdray

2. You've written that this amounts to about 30 slices--how many rolls or buns do you think this would make? (I'm trying to estimate the carb count.)

An estimate is exactly that, an estimate. I took a loaf and cut it into normal non skimpy slices using a binary method and got 15. I then doubled that amount to come up with the 30.
My point is you cant make a reasonable estimate until you try your recipe to have a good idea of what your results will be. For example you can shoot for 16 buns at x amount of carbs each but if your recipe produces a rise that gives you 16 two bite rolls or buns then that is not much of a carb bargain.

[Kevinpa]

Originally Posted by vonnygirl

could I use regular whole wheat flour? I have never heard of King Arthur flour. If so would that affect the carb/calorie count? Those loaves look soooo good, and now that I have to watch cals lately too, 52 calories sounds fantastic! One more question, is it hard to get 15 slices out of each loaf? I never had much luck slicing my homemade bread and end up with these giagantic thick slices!

Vonny the difference in the 2 flours is only 1 carb per 1/4 cup but as i stated in the last post to steph the key would be if you could get the rise needed from the regular whole wheat flour. So far because of the coarser nature of the regular whole wheat flour I have not been able to get a 2 loaf rise with it.

As far as the slices go....they are not thin slices but its still the honor system as to how many you really get.

[rexsreine]

The MOST gorgeous LC bread yet, Kevin! Way to go. I haven't tried the KA white whole wheat yet in LC, but, boy, I sure am going to now! Thanks again for sharing your fabulous results!

Ginny