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Old 09-01-2012, 06:29 AM   #1
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Changing Body Composition?

Hi Maintainers!
To make a long story short, I just hit my goal weight of 150 last week. I had been maintaining a large loss (from 257 to 165-175) for 9.5 years, but this low is new to me. All-in-all I've lost 107 pounds.

I am very happy with my current size (8-10) and look pretty good in clothes. But I hate my wiggly-jigglies! My shape is hourglass/pear and my worst areas are my lower stomach, butt, thighs, and boobs. At 49 I think I may need cosmetic surgery (almost certainly for the boobs), but for now I'd just like to build muscle and tighten things up as much as possible. I'm giving it 6 months to a year before exploring surgery.

Are any of you working on changing body composition while maintaining your current weight? I know bodybuilders have bulk and cut regimes, but I'm not at all interested in "bulking". That's not to say that I don't want to build muscle, I just don't want the fat along with it and that seems to be the way body builders do it.
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February Nutritional Ketosis...Are you in the zone?
Nutritional Ketosis Thread Information and Posts of Interest
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Original weight 2001--257 Maintaining 165-175 from 2002-March 2012
March 2012 to August 2012--175/150 Made Goal 8/27/12!
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:39 AM   #2
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Hi Mom2Zeke

I don't have an answer for you but I'll like to sub because I have the same problem areas and am a hourglass - thighs are the worst jiggles on me.

Walking, weight machines at the gym (upper and lower) don't seem to make a difference at all.
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:06 AM   #3
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Hi BlueTopaz!

How long have you been maintaining? What weight machines do you use at the gym and how often?

I am currently walking 3+ miles/day M-F. I also double step up 9 flights of stairs with a co-worker M-F. 1 hour kettebell class 2-3X/week. The kettelbells really work on posterior chain--but I have yet to see an effect on the wigglies.

I used to do heavy lifting (a lot of squats and deadlifts). But I no longer belong to that type of gym. Has anyone found it to be effective for this issue? When I was doing these workouts I wasn't at goal and it felt like I was building muscle but the layer of fat on top of the muscle wasn't going anywhere so I was actually expanding.

Someone recommended looking at The TNT Diet. Has anyone out there tried it? I bought it when it first came out, never really read it much, and donated it last winter in a large purge!
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:46 AM   #4
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Mom2Zeke:

I've been maintaining for about 2 yrs now - lol, about the same time my TOM's peri-meno have been wacky. A couple of months in a year, they are ok and I lose but that's only short term these days. I think fat storage is related to imbalanced hormones for me. I've been low carbing Atkins (1972 Atkins and DANDR) for about 10 yrs now - not as effective now no matter which one. I didn't click with NANY well when I tried it. I have switched out diets too for months at a clip just to see if that works but so far not. I always come back to LC because I like the food better and it's more sustainable for me.

I stay between 1200-1400 cal daily and take prescribed water pills as well for the water weight. I think I've tweaked every which way by now. I"m 52 yrs old so no spring chick here.

I do all the leg machines, hip abductors, treadmill, floor stability ball against the wall squats, sissors, leg raises, lunges, walking hills and flat outside for a mile or so at a time. I'm not a gym rat or exercise finatic but I do something every day. I actually love dancerizes and recently got the Disco 80's Party DVD by Richard Simmons I want to try.

I've been thinking about the kettle balls lately myself. I agree wholeheartedly with building muscle but seeing that layer of fat on my thighs are not reducing, especially in the front and it's getting worse. Frustrating, isn't it?

I haven't heard of the TNT diet. I'll have to check it out. What basically was it about?

Maybe someone will show up here and give us suggestions.
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:12 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BlueTopaz View Post
Mom2Zeke:

I've been maintaining for about 2 yrs now - lol, about the same time my TOM's peri-meno have been wacky. A couple of months in a year, they are ok and I lose but that's only short term these days. I think fat storage is related to imbalanced hormones for me. I've been low carbing Atkins (1972 Atkins and DANDR) for about 10 yrs now - not as effective now no matter which one. I didn't click with NANY well when I tried it. I have switched out diets too for months at a clip just to see if that works but so far not. I always come back to LC because I like the food better and it's more sustainable for me.
Sustainability is the key! I've been doing this for 11 years and can't imagine any other way.

Quote:
I do all the leg machines, hip abductors, treadmill, floor stability ball against the wall squats, sissors, leg raises, lunges, walking hills and flat outside for a mile or so at a time. I'm not a gym rat or exercise finatic but I do something every day. I actually love dancerizes and recently got the Disco 80's Party DVD by Richard Simmons I want to try.

I've been thinking about the kettle balls lately myself. I agree wholeheartedly with building muscle but seeing that layer of fat on my thighs are not reducing, especially in the front and it's getting worse. Frustrating, isn't it?
Completely! I hate the layer of jiggle.

Quote:
I haven't heard of the TNT diet. I'll have to check it out. What basically was it about?
I just downloaded it for my kindle (now I've bought it twice!). The author is Jeff Volek who contributed to A New Atkins for A New You and The Art and Science of Low Carb (Living and Performance) books. It really is written from a "male" perspective and he lays out different plans depending on your goals. There is a plan to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time which is basically an LC plan most of the time with targeted protein and carbs within an hour of working out. There is also a workout plan (3x week) which involves free weights and body weight exercises.

At this point I stay VLC with moderate protein and high fat. I am thinking about switching around my eating on my workout days to take advantage of the muscle building zone. I don't want to change what I'm eating, but maybe the timing will help?

Quote:
Maybe someone will show up here and give us suggestions.
Yes, please!! I feel like I'm throwing darts at a dartboard trying to deal with this.
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:47 AM   #6
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Hi, Kristn. Congratulations! I have noticed much improvement in body composition with the food plan I've had the last 2+ years. VLC, as non-industrial and as ancestral as I am able to. Callanetics, yoga and rebounding, and some slow walks are my exercise.

I think the L-Carnitine and Vitamin D have helped, too, as well as other supplements.

Twyla posts sometimes in the Callanetics threads. She might have some excellent recommendations. She is a body builder and has been in maintenance for years. Here is a link to search results for her posts. I find her posts very inspiring.

Hope this helps some.

Again, congratulations on your wonderful success!
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:19 PM   #7
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Hi, Kristn. Congratulations! I have noticed much improvement in body composition with the food plan I've had the last 2+ years. VLC, as non-industrial and as ancestral as I am able to. Callanetics, yoga and rebounding, and some slow walks are my exercise.

I think the L-Carnitine and Vitamin D have helped, too, as well as other supplements.

Twyla posts sometimes in the Callanetics threads. She might have some excellent recommendations. She is a body builder and has been in maintenance for years. Here is a link to search results for her posts. I find her posts very inspiring.

Hope this helps some.

Again, congratulations on your wonderful success!
Hi Auntie Em,
Thanks for the encouraging words and ideas! It's good to know that by doing the right things body comp improves over time.

I have seen Twyla (watch-me-shrink) posting around and she is very inspiring. Thanks for pointing me in her direction.

It seems like I am already doing a lot of the right things (eating plan, supplements, exercise). I guess there's no magic bullet--except maybe surgery.

Thanks again!!
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Old 09-08-2012, 12:26 PM   #8
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Mom2zeke, I thought of something else. I have heard very good things about CoQ10. I have just started taking it, and it seems to be one of those supplements that helps a great deal. I'll know more, after I've been taking it for awhile. Dr. Michael Eades has written about it, in ProteinPower Lifeplan. It improves mitochondrial health. There might be something at his blog about it.

(I'm not at my own computer and find this one too foreign to do much on, or I'd try to find some links on CoQ10 to post.)

If you find some things that really helps you with body composition, could you post about what helps? Thanks.

Last edited by Auntie Em; 09-08-2012 at 12:28 PM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 09-08-2012, 04:23 PM   #9
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Thanks for checking in Auntie Em.
I just got my baseline BF% today--26.3%. Not so bad. I am setting 20% as my goal at this point. My current strategy is to eat my largest protein/carb meal within a one hour window of my kettlebell classes and workouts. I am going to try this strategy for 3 months and see how it goes. The studio that I workout at will have the hydrostatic testing truck back at that time.

The supplements I am currently taking are:
DIM
Seriphos
DHEA
Selenium
Iodine (Iodoral 12.5)
Vitamin D
Vitamin K
Magnesium
Potassium
Zinc
(most of these were suggested by my naturopath after my last round of testing)

I am also on Levoxyl and Cytomel for my hypothyroid.

I will look into the L-Carnitine and CoQ10. I feel like I was taking L-Carnitine when I first start LC, but I have gone through so many supplement regimens over the years it got lost along the way.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:08 AM   #10
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Kristn, I take many of the supplements you do, plus some others.

I try to remember to take 300-500mg L-Carnitine before meals, and I also find it nice to take some first thing in the morning. I started taking it for the "brain function" aspect, and find it helps with thinking clearly and smiling more. Dr. Richard Bernstein recommends taking L-Carnitine for getting the most effective strengthening out of one's exercise. That's a paraphrase, I don't have the book with me.

I've only been on the CoQ10 a few days, 100mg in the am and 100 in the pm, but it seems that my muscles are stronger and have more definition. I may be imagining this, after such a short time, but I have that impression.

Have you noticed that your protein amounts are proportions of Pro: Fat: Carbs change your body composition? If you don't mind posting about that.

Hope your week-end is going very nicely.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:22 AM   #11
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Have you noticed that your protein amounts are proportions of Pro: Fat: Carbs change your body composition? If you don't mind posting about that.

Hope your week-end is going very nicely.
Interesting information about the L-Carnitine and CoQ10! Thanks

I am following nutritional ketosis as outline in the book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. I eat 70-90 grams of protein and 20-30 grams of carbs per day with the rest made up of fat--usually around 20% protein/5% Carbs/75% Fat. I will have more answers after my next BF% test about how this WOE is effecting my body composition. Right now it's just a shot in the dark.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:35 AM   #12
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Kristn, I am trying out 25-35g/CHO rather than 20-25, seeing how that goes for a bit. Protein for me is usually 60-70g, just now, and the rest fat. I have times of 15-20g/CHO and 50-60g/PRO, but am eating more for a little while. I haven't timed the cycles of eating more and eating less, but there seems to be something cyclical.

My fat percentage sometimes goes up to 85 or even 90.

I have read various places, that staying low carb, high fat with adequate protein, reverses mitochondrial destruction, improving health. Drs. Eades, Lutz, and Stan's Heretic blog, for a few.

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Old 09-09-2012, 07:53 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
Interesting information about the L-Carnitine and CoQ10! Thanks

I am following nutritional ketosis as outline in the book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. I eat 70-90 grams of protein and 20-30 grams of carbs per day with the rest made up of fat--usually around 20% protein/5% Carbs/75% Fat. I will have more answers after my next BF% test about how this WOE is effecting my body composition. Right now it's just a shot in the dark.
Hi Auntie Em and MomtoZeke,

There seems to be a trend lately on the boards here that less protein than fat seems to be working for us maintainers or stallers because of the excess protein turning into glucose.

I am willing to up my fat to test this out only because I've tried everything else under the sun I followed Protein Power for a little while and did ok back then but that was before the stalls began. I have no aversion to eating more fat as I do think it helps more with the appetite for me these days. Certainly veggie carbs and protein don't seem to work so well.

I'm looking for a good protein needs calculator because I've tried about 6 different websites and they all have different answers. I don't want to lose muscle mass but not go over either....a fine line, it seems. I exercise but not a whole lot and use weight machines and walk daily but I've noticed that my thighs are getting flabbier by the day. WTH?

So, if you girls know of a website that has accurate protein needs count, please PM me if it's not appropriate to post it on the thread. When I read the Protein Power book years ago, I figure out my protein grams should be 64.
I'm older now and not wiser so that figure may have changed.

I have been taken CoQ10 for a couple of years now and my doctor thinks it's great. I also saw an exerpt from Dr. Atkins Nutritional book (I have recently ordered) on Taurine helping with water weight issues (mine) and a lot of others benefits as well. So, I began that yesterday.

I have an array of supplements but I take them twice a week because I don't want to overload my liver. Any thoughts on that?
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:06 AM   #14
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Hi Blue Topaz!
Moderating protein has been the only method I've tried that actually got me to my goal weight. As I said above, I am following The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance guidelines. Phinney/Volek use the calculation of .6-1 gram of protein per pound of goal lean body mass. My new goal is 120lb of LBM so my range is 72-120. I am usually around 90 but sometimes dip lower. I am testing for ketosis using a meter, so if I get out of ketosis I will lower my protein a bit--but so far so good. There is a link to more information about this in my signature (Nutritional Ketosis Thread Information and Posts of Interest) if you're interested.

I'm not sure about overloading one's liver with supplements. I have gone back and forth on this. I stopped taking fish oil, vitamin C, and Vitamin B after not so great reports came out about them.
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:12 AM   #15
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Hi, BT. I follow Dr. Jan Kwasniewski's recommendations for protein. How to calculate the amount is in this post:

Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet

As to recommendations which appear on forums, blogs, etc., for me, there must be very sound science and/or a proven track record behind any recommendation. For example, a doctor who has treated thousands of patients, and/or long-term clinical trials which prove that something has a certain biochemical or metabolic effect, are key criteria in whether or not a recommendation or opinion has any merit.

You could ask specific questions about supplements in the Supplements sub-forum. You'll get more responses about effects of supplements there than in a thread about "Body Recomposition" in the Maintainers sub-forum.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Auntie Em; 09-09-2012 at 08:14 AM..
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:50 AM   #16
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Auntie Em - Thanks for the link...I must be mathmatically challenged at the moment it has my head looking like this: I'll try again later. Must be mentalpause setting in.

Mom2Zike
: Thanks to you too. I think I can handle your math eqations with a calculator. I just went out to to web and my lean body mass is calculated at 105 for a fat percentage of 22%.

So, you're calculations would be 72g - 120 grams of Protein for 120 lbs (your goal lean body weight)? How do I figure out my goal?

My scale shows my fat percentage is at 34% - way too high. The gym measured me with one of those meters a couple of years ago and it said the same.

So, if I add 22% of body fat which is (acceptable for my age, height etc) to my Lean Body Weight of 105 lbs, I could use that as a weight goal and then calculate 1g per goal weight? Or do I have that mixed up?

I'll check out the Nutritional Ketosis thread, ty.
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:00 AM   #17
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Mom2Zike[/B]: Thanks to you too. I think I can handle your math eqations with a calculator. I just went out to to web and my lean body mass is calculated at 105 for a fat percentage of 22%.

So, you're calculations would be 72g - 120 grams of Protein for 120 lbs (your goal lean body weight)? How do I figure out my goal?

My scale shows my fat percentage is at 34% - way too high. The gym measured me with one of those meters a couple of years ago and it said the same.

So, if I add 22% of body fat which is (acceptable for my age, height etc) to my Lean Body Weight of 105 lbs, I could use that as a weight goal and then calculate 1g per goal weight? Or do I have that mixed up?

I'll check out the Nutritional Ketosis thread, ty.
The calculation is based on goal LBM, it sounds like your LBM is 105.

105*.6=63
105*1=105

So a range of 63-105 for protein. On the thread we have found that starting at the lower end of the range helpful if you're trying to lose weight.
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:03 AM   #18
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BT, it's not as hard as it looks. My head reeled the first time I read that, too.

There are 2.54 cm in an inch.

An example:

A person of 5 feet and 6 inches is 66 inches tall. To reckon due body weight:

66 x 2.54 = 167.64 cm. Dr. K's method is to subtract 100 from that amount, which gives 67.64. The protein amount, for men or women, is 67.64 plus or minus ten percent.

His standard calculations are 1 gram of protein for each Kilogram of due body weight : 2.5 - 3.5 grams of fat for each gram of protein, and .8 grams of carbs (compared with the 1 gram of protein).

So, for that 66 inch tall person, at 67.64 Kg due body weight:

Protein, plus or minus ten percent: 67.64 grams of Protein
Fat: 169.1 grams - 236.74 (2.5 to 3.5 times the grams of protein at 1 gm)
Carbs: 54.11 (.8 gram of protein grams)

For weight loss, those ratios can go down to .8 Pro: 1.5 - 2.5 Fat: .3 Carbs (CHO is the abbreviation for Carbohydrate) 67.64 x .8, etc.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Auntie Em; 09-09-2012 at 09:05 AM.. Reason: typing error
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:39 AM   #19
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Thanks AuntieEM - yes, that helps. Gotta do some calorie burning cleaning the house now but I'll go figure out your method calculation..

Thanks Mom2Zeke for figuring it out. I'll still check with the thread you mentioned.

Between both ways, I should be in good shape. A couple of websites came up with about 55 grams of protein. That would be too low apparently.

Just wondering Mom2Zeke, you're not actually considering reaching your weight goal by the leanbody weight are you? I haven't been at 105 lbs since I was proably about 10 yrs old I was 118 lbs when I graduated. I would look terrible at that weight now - not even counting all the sags and wrinkles I would acquire

May I ask how tall you are? I'm assume you are about my age of 52 - maybe a little younger?
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Old 09-09-2012, 02:52 PM   #20
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Just wondering Mom2Zeke, you're not actually considering reaching your weight goal by the leanbody weight are you? I haven't been at 105 lbs since I was proably about 10 yrs old I was 118 lbs when I graduated. I would look terrible at that weight now - not even counting all the sags and wrinkles I would acquire

May I ask how tall you are? I'm assume you are about my age of 52 - maybe a little younger?
I am 49 and 5' 5.5" (used to be 5' 6").

I am at my goal weight (150) and I'm not actively working on losing below that. I am currently 150 with 26.3% BF. If I was 150 with 20% BF I would have 120 lbs of LBM. That will require me to gain ~10 pounds of muscle and lose ~10 lb of fat at the same time. I don't think it will be fast or easy, but that's my goal.
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Old 09-09-2012, 04:49 PM   #21
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I am 49 and 5' 5.5" (used to be 5' 6").

I am at my goal weight (150) and I'm not actively working on losing below that. I am currently 150 with 26.3% BF. If I was 150 with 20% BF I would have 120 lbs of LBM. That will require me to gain ~10 pounds of muscle and lose ~10 lb of fat at the same time. I don't think it will be fast or easy, but that's my goal.
Yeah, I would think it would be hard to gain 10lbs of muscle unless you did heavy weight lifting. Especially at our age. To lose 10 lbs of fat probably harder. I would think it's hard to lose weight and avoid muscle with it. A few ladies on this board are in that league, maybe they could advise?

If I could get my body fat to a normal number, I probably would like the way I look regardless of the scale. Now, with getting older, I'm losing muscle faster than fat, that's why my thighs are getting very jello-like. I'm never sure if I should be do Hiit - sprints, jog, walk, weight machines or combination. I hate all pain, no gain
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Old 09-09-2012, 05:00 PM   #22
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Yeah, I would think it would be hard to gain 10lbs of muscle unless you did heavy weight lifting. Especially at our age. To lose 10 lbs of fat probably harder. I would think it's hard to lose weight and avoid muscle with it. A few ladies on this board are in that league, maybe they could advise?
LOL--the trainers at the kettlebell studio that I work out at seem to think that the kettlebells will help me to gain muscle and lose fat--we'll see about that. I try to go as heavy as I can (with good form and without potentially losing my grip on the kettlebell and hitting someone). I've only been doing them for 3 months and I have definitely seen some changes. I'm going back for another BF% test in 3 more months so will have more information on this. I also found a BF calculator that uses measurements and gives me roughly the same number that the hydrostatic BF test gave me. I'm going to measure every week and put my numbers in there. I'll have a better idea when I get my next test, but this will be okay for now.

Quote:
If I could get my body fat to a normal number, I probably would like the way I look regardless of the scale. Now, with getting older, I'm losing muscle faster than fat, that's why my thighs are getting very jello-like. I'm never sure if I should be do Hiit - sprints, jog, walk, weight machines or combination. I hate all pain, no gain
I hear you on the jello-like thighs. I know that at this point the majority of my fat is there. I'm hopeful that building some muscle and losing some fat will improve that situation.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:49 PM   #23
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Mom2Zeke: Ironically, I joined today with EFBT thread and they are doing the Nutritional Ketosis so I guess I am I mentioned how helpful you and Auntie Em were.

Someone was kind enough to give me an Excel spreadsheet sample of Rebecca's to create my own and got it on but checking with the lady who gave it to me to make sure it's right. The fat percentage and calories seem too high.

I still must go through the NK thread to understand all of this. I did browse it a few months ago but I was confused with the technicalities but burning some brain cells can't hurt, right?

For todays food, my ****** figures were:

Fat: 77%
Protein: 16%
Carbs: 7%


Fat: 109g
Protein: 54.1g
Carbs: 23.9

Calories: 1351

So, I fell short of the protein you recommended of 63 grams.
The carbs were just about right (I'd like to stay at Net 20)
The fats were a little high but at least they were higher than the protein.
What do you think? Looking for some guidance. I feel like a babe in the woods here. You can yell and capitalize
It'll take me a while to settle in and figure my target numbers.
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:17 PM   #24
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BlueTopaz--you do not need a certain high fat percentage of calories--Phinney and Volek say that the range is usually between 65%-85%. Mine is usually around 70% for weight-loss and closer to 80% for maintenance, but that's not hard and fast. The most important thing is getting the protein and carb grams correct for you. You can then eat fat to satiety. If you find that you're not losing then lower your fat until you start losing. NK sets your body up to use fat for fuel rather than glucose. But in order to lose you need to access your body fat stores for part of your fat %, if you're eating too much fat you will just use that dietary fat for energy and not lose weight.

The two places that people seem to go wrong is in eating too much protein and thinking that they need some super high % of fat from their diet.

I think your numbers look great. Just up the protein slightly and they'll be perfect. Do not force yourself to eat more fat if you're not hungry.

Last edited by mom2zeke; 09-09-2012 at 08:31 PM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:18 PM   #25
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You can also look at the link in my signature "Nutritional Ketosis Thread Information and Posts of Interest." It's a page of links to great posts from the NK thread without having to read through the whole thing.
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:29 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by mom2zeke View Post
You can also look at the link in my signature "Nutritional Ketosis Thread Information and Posts of Interest." It's a page of links to great posts from the NK thread without having to read through the whole thing.
Thanks and I might be making this too complicated. I actually like the idea of lowering protein and upping fat because I've found that protein doesn't satiate like fat for me.

Linda Sue's Deep Dish Pizza was what made me realize it. When I eat that which is primarily fat - I am feeling great and not hungry. So, upping my fat with a stockpile of her pizza in the freezer is a quick go-to meal for me.

This morning I cooked my eggs and scrapple in coconut oil and butter. That was at 9:00 and I wasn't hungry for lunch until 1:30.

Some people I know would vomit if they ate as much fat as me

I'm kind of surprised tht Phinney wrote a book outside of the NANY book (New Atkins for a New You). He was the co-author of that one, I understand.

Well, thanks for your help and I'll check out your threads of interest.
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Old 09-26-2012, 07:45 AM   #27
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Mornin Ladies, way back at the beginning of your thread you mentioned the TNT diet, I used it and wished I had found it 25yrs ago when I was a gym rat. It's basically low carb and gives a day you actually carb up once a week. It's great for increasing lean muscle and maintaining stamina.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:56 PM   #28
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It's been a while since I posted here but I wanted to report that I think I'm very close to my 20% BF goal! I got my BF% tested on 12/1 and I was 23.5% (116 lb LBM). I realized that if I lost down to 145 without losing any LBM I would be at 20%BF. I was already dropping pounds when I had the test done and this morning I was 145.8! I'm not sure if it was all fat, but I'm so close I can taste it! I plan on testing again in 3 months and staying at 145 while continuing my NK plan.

Anyone else with news to report?
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:56 AM   #29
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Kristn, can I ask where you found the calculator for BF% that was close to your test results?
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:33 PM   #30
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Hi NH_Free--try googling: health central home body fat test

I don't think these are that accurate so I wouldn't rely too heavily on it.
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