How many carbs do you need to maintain?

[EyeDoc]

I was just curious. I realize that everyone is different and everyone has different triggers, but what is your magic number? Do you limit your carbs to vegetables? or do you include some sugars or breads?

[Salamander]

Hi Eyedoc!

Hopefully you will get a few responses (the maintainer's area isn't very busy unfortunately), and if so you will find many different answers. For me, I don't usually count carbs or stick to a certain level. What I do is weigh daily and maintain within 2 lb. of my desired weight. Once I go over that number, I watch my carbs more carefully- still not formally counting, but I probably stick to 40 or less, until I lose the extra weight (which is only water weight anyway.)

Most of my carbs come from vegetables, cottage cheese, nuts and occasionally a low carb tortilla. I have been eating bread a little more the past couple weeks and have decided it's not worth it to me, since it bloats my abdomen big time

[EyeDoc]

Originally Posted by Salamander

Hi Eyedoc!

For me, I don't usually count carbs or stick to a certain level. What I do is weigh daily and maintain within 2 lb. of my desired weight. Once I go over that number, I watch my carbs more carefully- still not formally counting, but I probably stick to 40 or less, until I lose the extra weight (which is only water weight anyway.)

:

Thanks for your reply Salamander! I hate having to count carbs all day. I know what I should avoid - sugar, pasta, bread... but really don't want to have to worry about one carb here and one carb there.

It looks like water is our friend and enemy when it comes to LC'ing. It can cause the scale to fluctuate a lot, but we need to drink as much of it as possible! Still something that I can't seem to get used to and remember to do!

It seems like a lot of people are staying around the 40-60 carb range when they are maintaining (not really sure where I got those numbers). I like those numbers a lot better than 20.

[Leo41]

It's all individual. Dr. A wrote about finding your 'critical carbohydrate level,' the most you could consume and not become ravenous and begin to gain.

Alas, for me it's about 25g a day. I don't have to count because that means that mainly green veggies are my 'carbs,' and I'm actually often lower than
25g because I tend to focus on meat, fish, eggs. I will have nuts very, very occasionally.

Interestingly, although it may seem low, I actually feel best at this carb level, so it must be right for my body. I can gain just by adding more veggies, so I'm careful with carbs.

[Big_Al]

I found that while I prefer staying very low carb (<10 grams or so), it is very hard for me not to have my weight slowly drift down too low. So if I combine that with the constant leg cramps I get, I force myself to stay 20-30grams per day if I can.

But as mentioned, there are a lot of approaches to maintaining.

[Stargazey]

Big Al, you might try a chelated magnesium supplement for the leg cramps. It worked for me, anyway.

As far as the carb count, in my experience it's an individual thing. I can gain weight on zero carb, but I can also gain weight if I eat too many carbs. I have certain trigger foods that I know I must avoid or I'll get into trouble. Constant watchfulness seems to be the rule, even after 8 years of doing this.

[Auntie Em]

Hi, Eyedoc. Thanks for the thread topic. I find that I feel best when eating under 20g/CHO/d. Once in a while, there will be a day of 30-ish. I try not to go under 15 as it makes my body work too hard, and I don't feel as well. Dr. Richard Bernstein's book, The Diabetes Solution, was my inspiration for cutting out the fruit, and eating VLC. I don't have carb cravings, and find it a stable, strengthening level of CHO.

Hope to see quite a few posts from maintainers in this thread, as this question has not been asked for some time.

[happyheart1]

EyeDoc,

It's definitely YMMV. I feel best & maintain easily at 70-80 NC. I eat whole grains, taters, popcorn, legumes & fruit (usually berries), BUT, in reasonable portions, never alot at one time & always with a decent hit of protein. I tell myself that no foods are banned (I seem to have a psychological need to do this), but the truth is that I avoid processed foods, white flour & sugar. It sounds weird, but knowing I can have a donut if I really want one has kept me from having one for at least well over a year. Whenever I think about eating something like that, it just doesn't appeal like it did in the distant past & seems like too many carbs for too little enjoyment. I do enjoy the occasional SF treat. Just experiment & you will find what works for you. Good luck.

[steady]

I hover around 40 gross carbs, I probably could go higher and still maintain, but this is where feel best.

[Speck333]

Originally Posted by EyeDoc

I was just curious. I realize that everyone is different and everyone has different triggers, but what is your magic number? Do you limit your carbs to vegetables? or do you include some sugars or breads?

Although I am not at my goal weight, I had been maintaining this year on anywhere between 5 and 60 net carbs per day. Once or twice a week, an inclusion of a higher carb item or meal didn't seem to impact my maintenance. Of course, YMMV, but I think you need to experiment to see what your levels are.

[EyeDoc]

Thanks everyone for the replies!!

I've gotten a hang at reading ALL the nutritional info on ANY package before putting it in my mouth, but I know that I will get sick of that soon enough. I know what foods to avoid, and know the approximate carb content of most vegetables. I just don't want to pull out my laptop or cell phone each and every time I want something to eat! (kind of embarrassing at a restaurant!)

I have been trying to keep my carbs to 20g or less. I know that I can go higher some days and it doesn't adversely affect me as long as I continue to exercise regularly. It's obvious that the maintenance carb levels vary for each individual. I can not wait to find out what I need to maintain!

[Gretalyn]

I eat between 50 and 65 grams of carbs per day. More than that, and the sugar cravings come back and I feel bloated and sick. Less than that and I don't feel very energetic, plus I lose so much weight that my husband gets worried. (I have skinny arms to begin with, and I seem to lose weight there when I'm not well or not eating enough. So when he sees my arms getting too thin, he worries!)

I get most of my carbs from veggies, fruits, and dairy products. I do tend to choose lower sugar fruits like berries over really sugary ones like bananas, though. And I love yogurt, but I buy full-fat unsweetened Greek yogurt, which is lower in carbs. I will sometimes indulge in corn tortilla chips or taco shells, because that is my favorite carby junk food. But not too often. I avoid rice because it spikes my blood sugar as badly as candy does. I will sometimes incorporate a *small* amount of beans into something that's already high in fat and protein. But I completely avoid bread and pasta and such because of gluten issues. Most of the people I know think that my diet is so strict. But I actually find it quite livable. The longer I do it, the easier it gets. The less my body wants those foods that were making me sick!

[True Grave]

Originally Posted by Big_Al

I found that while I prefer staying very low carb (<10 grams or so), it is very hard for me not to have my weight slowly drift down too low. So if I combine that with the constant leg cramps I get, I force myself to stay 20-30grams per day if I can.

But as mentioned, there are a lot of approaches to maintaining.

I once read that it only takes about 20 grams to kick the average person off ketosis. While i don't think thats entirely accurate, its not far from the mark.

Anyway, you're getting leg cramps? That tells me you're not getting enough vitamins like potassium. I suggest buying a generic 1-a-day vitamin supplement and taking that. As low-carb dieting usually leaves one vitamin deficient.

[TaDa!]

Originally Posted by True Grave

I once read that it only takes about 20 grams to kick the average person off ketosis. While i don't think thats entirely accurate, its not far from the mark....

I have to say I totally disagree with this ... It is truly a YMMV thing. While I can maintain at 100 net carbs a day, I get the best appetite suppression / self-control if I take it down to around 50 net carbs and so that is what I do on a daily basis, allowing a higher day here and there if I want one. I get deep ketosis just below 50 net! In the book New Atkins For A New You, the authors imply that about the 50 net carb mark for Maintenenance as well. Like others here, my diet of carbs is mostly vegetables, nuts, peanuts, dairy (and lowcarb pita, lol!) and I do not eat beans, starchy veg, or grains on a regular basis.

As far as counting .. I have found that if I stick to the same basic items that are most carby for me (1% milk, lol! and the same quantities of veggies, etc), I do not need to log my food anymore on a daily basis -- just the odd occasion when i want to know what a particular meal will add up to, etc. My advice, log a few times and get yourself a ballpark figure, then go from there!

Great thread!!



Pauline

[Gretalyn]

Originally Posted by TaDa!

I have to say I totally disagree with this ... It is truly a YMMV thing. While I can maintain at 100 net carbs a day, I get the best appetite suppression / self-control if I take it down to around 50 net carbs and so that is what I do on a daily basis, allowing a higher day here and there if I want one. I get deep ketosis just below 50 net! In the book New Atkins For A New You, the authors imply that about the 50 net carb mark for Maintenenance as well.

My maintenance diet usually keeps me in ketosis as well. I don't check often any more, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn that when I'm at the upper end of my range, I'm probably not in ketosis. But I know that I am when I eat 50g.

Carb intake is not the only determining factor regarding ketosis. Or at least, that's what I've heard. If you're eating a great deal of protein, your body may be turning that into glucose as well. But if you're getting most of your calories from fat, you're more likely to go into deep ketosis. So maybe that's why I'm ketogenic at 50g of carb per day -- I eat a lot of fat!

[Auntie Em]

Eyedoc, I realized I only answered part of your question.

I get carbs in the following animal foods: beef liver and brains, chicken livers, egg yolks, hwc, and cheese.

Plant carbs: herbs, green vegetables, and the occasional pumpkin puree.

Mixed animal/plant carb: bee pollen (ca. 2g/CHO per tsp.)

I don't eat grains, legumes, nuts/seeds/or their oils. (Phytates, lectins, Omega 6, etc.) The Paleo blogs and forums can give you information on why avoiding phytic acid, lectin, and Omega 6 are important.

I don't eat nightshades and also keep a low FODMAP food plan.

A note on ketosis: how much glycogen in the liver, how easily it is depleted and replenished will effect one's level of ketosis. Also, ketones in the blood and ketones spilling into the urine are two different subjects.

I have never used ketostix or any other measurement for whether or not I am in ketosis.

This test showed that serum ketones do not determine weight loss:

Urinary ketones reflect serum ketone concent... [J Am Diet Assoc. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

I have read that once one adapts to a LC diet, that the body becomes keto-adapted and that the ketones no longer spill into the urine to any great amount. I don't have a reference. If someone has one, could you please post it? Thanks.

Regarding the proclamation about 20g/CHO, ketosis, and the average person: as there is no such thing as one diet fits all, there can be no such thing as a set amount of carbs for all persons, as to whether or not someone has a specific level of ketones in their urine. Just as no two people have the same pancreas function or blood sugar curve.

It's lovely to read of all the different levels of carbs and food plans here among the Maintainers.

Best wishes to all for a lovely afternoon.

[Gretalyn]

Great post, Auntie Em! Lots of interesting stuff there. I'm off to find out what FODMAP means.

[EyeDoc]

Originally Posted by Gretalyn

I'm off to find out what FODMAP means.

Me, too!

[Gretalyn]

Well I found it, and I'm absolutely stunned. I have IBS and yet my doctor never told me about this!!! His only advice was to cut dairy out of my diet. I did and it accomplished nothing, so I asked him if cutting out gluten might work. He said probably not, but I did it anyway, and found that it did!

While cutting out gluten eliminated 90% of my symptoms, I do still have flare-ups. I thought it was accidental contamination (ingested gluten without realizing it) but now I'm wondering if it's other foods on this list. I'm going to print out this list. Thanks for mentioning this!

[Auntie Em]

Gretalyn, I hope going low FODMAPs helps. I have found that keeping a low FODMAPs food plan has improved many things for me. I still eat the occasional serving of green beans, or okra, but that occasional serving is once every few months. I have not eliminated the hwc or cheese. If I keep the portions small, and don't eat hwc or cheese at each meal, I do okay. (I'm not willing to completely give up that lactose. )

There is gluten hidden in many things, such as the glue on envelopes, and mystery ingredients such as modified food starch. Going completely grain-free helped me very much.

I'll look for the links I've posted to FODMAPs and see if I can post them here.

ETA: Yes, I found them.

Evidence-based dietary management of functional gastrointestinal symptoms: The FODMAP approach - Gibson - 2009 - Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology - Wiley Online Library

For those that prefer an "easy reading" version, here is a post on FODMAPs at Jamie Scott's blog:

That Paleo Guy: FODMAP's

I avoid sugar alcohols and the other FODMAPs as well.

Dr. Emily Deans has a post on her blog about fructose malabsorption:

Evolutionary Psychiatry: Dietary Strategies for Fructose Malabsorption

FODMAPs are a culprit in many troubles, including depression.

Hope these help.

[Auntie Em]

Gretalyn, if it interests you, a low salicylate diet might help, too. Here is a list of the categories from low to high, for foods containing salicylates. Some are bothered by other high phenol foods which do not contain high levels of salicylates. There is more information at salicylatesensitivity, for example.

LOW

Low Fruits

Apple (yellow)
Banana
Paw Paw
Pear
Pomegranate

Low Vegetables

Bamboo Shoot
Bean sprouts
Black-eyed peas
Brown beans
Brussel sprouts
Cabbage
Celery
Garbanzo beans
Leeks
Lentils
Lettuce
Lima beans
Mung beans
Peas
Potato
Shallots
Soybeans
Summer squash
Swede
Sweet potato

Low Grains

Arrowroot
Buckwheat
Cornmeal
Maize
Millet
Rice
Soy
Grits

Low Nuts/Seeds

Cashews
Poppy seeds

Low Animal Products

Beef
Egg
Fish
Lamb
Liver
Pork
Poultry
Shellfish

Low Other

Carob powder
Chives
Cocoa powder
Maple syrup
Milo
Parsley
Saffron
Shallots
Sugar
Chamomile tea
vodka

MODERATE

Moderate Fruits

Apples (red)
Casaba melon
Cantaloupe
Cherries (sweet)
Figs
Grapes light/seedless
Kiwi (golden)
Lemon
Loquat
Lychee
Mango
Nectarine
Passion Fruit
Persimmon
Pineapple
Tamarillo
Watermelon

Moderate Vegetables

Asparagus
Beet
Carrot
Cauliflower
Corn
Cauliflower
Cucumber (no skin)
Eggplant
Green beans
Olives (black)
Onion
Parsnip
Pumpkin
Rhubarb
Spinach
Squash (marrow)
Turnip

Moderate Nuts & Seeds

Brazil nuts
Coconut (dried)
Hazelnuts
Macadamia nuts
Pecans
Sesame seeds
Sunflower seeds
Walnuts

Moderate Other

Coriander leaves
Corn syrup
Garlic
Molasses
Tea (herbal/decaf)
Wine (rose,white)



HIGH-MODERATE

High Moderate Fruits

Apples (green)
Cherries (sour)
Grapes (red)
Grapefruit (red)
Kiwi (green)
Mandarin orange
Mulberries
Peach
Tangelo

High Moderate Vegetables

Alfalfa
Broad beans
Broccoli
Chili peppers
Cucumber (with skin)
Mushrooms
Okra
Watercress

High Moderate Nuts

Pine nuts
Pistachios

High Moderate Other

Coffee
Fennel powder
Wine (Cabernet/Riestling/Savignon

HIGH



High Fruits

Apricots
Blackberries
Blueberries
Boysenberries
Cranberries
Cranberry sauce
Currants
Dates
Guava
Loganberries
Orange
Plum
Youngberries

High Vegetables

Chicory
Endive
Peppers (red/yellow)
Mushrooms
Radishes
Tomatoes
Zucchini


High Nuts

Almonds
Peanuts
Water chestnuts


High Other

Bay leaves
Basil
Caraway
Champagne
Chili powder
Ginger root
Mint
Nutmeg
Pepper (white)
Peppermints
Pimentos
Rum
Tea (green,black)
Vanilla flavoring
Vinegar


VERY HIGH

Very High Fruits

Raisins
Prunes
Strawberries
Raspberries

Very High Vegetables

Pepper (green)
Tomato paste
Tomato sauce

Very High Other

Allspice
Cardamom
Cloves
Dill
Licorice
Paprika(sweet)


Pepper
Pickles

EXTREMELY HIGH

Aniseed
Canella powder
Cayenne
Celery powder
Cinnamon
Cumin
Curry
Dill powder
Honey
Horseradish
Mace
Mustard powder
Oregano
Paprika (hot)
Rosemary/
Sage
Tarragon
Turmeric
Thyme
Worcestershire sauce


The list is from the gfcfdiet site.

A low excitotoxin food plan could be of interest, too, if you're not already avoiding the excitotoxins. Also, low oxalates can help.

I'm not at my own computer or I would post more information, with links.

Next time I'm online with my own computer, I'll check here and post more.

All the best to you.

[Gretalyn]

Auntie Em, thank you so much for sharing these links and lists. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. I've definitely got some reading and research ahead of me!

[Auntie Em]

Gretalyn, I hope the information helps some. I have had to continue to eliminate foods over the last few years, in order to try to solve the riddle of better health.

Finding out about FODMAPs was a great help to me, as well as salicylates/phenols, nightshades, oxalates, and of course, eating low fiber and staying away from grains and legumes. Dr. Blake Donaldsons' book, Strong Medicine, made it very clear to me that allergic reactions run in families, and Dr. Richard Bernstein's book, The Diabetes Solution, made it obvious that if diabetes runs in a family, the only way to prevent it is to stay low carb. Dr. Kurt Harris' blog, Archevore, showed the connections between foods based on agriculture and the diseases of civilization. Dr. Emily Deans' blog, Evolutionary Psychiatry, underlined how much brain function is determined by diet as well as genetic make-up.

I find it an interesting puzzle, and always feel relieved when I find out something I have a choice about which improves my ability to feel well.

Am sending you best wishes for finding things which fit what you need.

[Gretalyn]

Originally Posted by Auntie Em

Am sending you best wishes for finding things which fit what you need.

Thank you! The question of what I should eat seems to have a surprisingly complicated answer. General low-carb is the single best thing I've ever done for my health. No contest. (And that came about when my grandmother died from complications of diabetes, and I thought maybe I should pay more attention to this diet that my brother was advocating.) Then discovering my gluten intolerance was huge as well.

I don't know if my body is growing less and less tolerant and more easily irritated over time, or if it's that I'm more in-tune with my body's reactions (maybe some of both), but it seems the list of foods I can comfortably eat is shrinking. First it was just gluten-containing grains, but then I noticed that I really don't handle ANY grains that well. Rice and corn don't affect me nearly as badly as wheat, but they do make me feel bloated.

And this one I can't figure out. I know that peanuts are technically legumes, but I seem to be just fine with them. Beans however, particularly pinto beans, are truly *painful*. Now why should that be?

Definitely can NOT do polyols.

I'll have to play around with some of the other foods on these lists and see how things go. I've never noticed a particular response to any of the veggies that were listed. Maybe my body isn't quite that sensitive. Yet?

Sorry for the thread hijack, Eye Doc! Auntie Em, we can take it to private messaging if that's better.

[EyeDoc]

No problemo...

[Auntie Em]

Gretalyn, we can post about the shrinking food choices in my thread for Carnivores.

I ended up eating the way I do due to finding the need to eliminate yet another category or food, and yet another.... Those of us who are gluten intolerant find that more and more foods become intolerable, for various reasons.

I forgot to mention foods containing high levels of histamines as a possible factor, too.

http://thatpaleoguy.com/2011/04/11/h...e-intolerance/

http://thatpaleoguy.com/2011/11/14/h...erance-update/

If you do a google search for dirty carnivores, you'll find some very friendly folks who have had to eliminate all kinds of things in order not to have health problems, and have much knowledge and experience amongst them.


Sorry, Eyedoc.