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Old 07-04-2013, 10:56 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Bella View Post
thanks guy, I like the sound of "keto adapted" . . . still figuring it out.
I don't think I am there yet, but hope I am getting closer.
I don't test for ketones, but point 2 makes a sort of sense. I am still trying to wrap my head around the science of all of this.
Me too Bella...Still learning
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:15 PM   #32
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Me too Bella...Still learning
Me too.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:11 PM   #33
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I just read the articles Emel and he pretty much said that in the podcast.
Interesting about this part:
Mark Sisson states that you should ask yourself this questions to find out if you are Keto-adpated:

Can you go three hours without eating? Is skipping a meal an exercise in futility and misery? I am personally still working on this. I am very hungry all day
Do you enjoy steady, even energy throughout the day? Are midday naps pleasurable indulgences, rather than necessary staples? I saw an improvement on my energy levels, but nothing to be very happy about.
Can you exercise without carb-loading? Just walking a little here and there
Have the headaches and brain fuzziness passed? I still have headaches, especially mild ones at night...
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:51 PM   #34
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Well Bella the things that caught my ear were:
1.- Ketosis is the wrong term. It is better to use to term Keto-Adapted. Keto-adaptation as Emel pointed out to me before and this dude was discussing, can take weeks and even months for some people depending on the way you were burning sugars before.
2.- People are too obsessed about testing for Ketosis. He said that it is better not too have many ketones in your blood...Why? Because that means that the body are using them for fuel.
That is the whole point of becoming keto adapted - for the body's fuel source to be ketones. Sounds confused. Who's show was it?
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:27 PM   #35
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I am not sure what people expect Ketosis to do. Hunger is not abnormal. Even being really hungry at times is not abnormal. Never ever being hungry is NOT normal and to expect that from a healthy way of eating as you would from an appetite suppressant drug is unrealistic. Taking the edge of hunger so you CAN make better food choices and become satisfied from less food is more realistic for most people. Just as there are people out there that can eat unlimited foods and never gain an ounce , you will hear a few people that can't eat a bite when in Ketosis but I still think that "anoretic" state is temporary. Eventually, your body adjusts as does your appetite and you will eventually find an eating and hunger rhythm .
For me this is better than a diet pill because I can still enjoy food, a very pleasurable part of life. I tried diet pills years ago and felt very jittery. And eating often made me feel unwell.

But yeah, the keto-adaptation appetite suppression for me is about not having that demon on my shoulder constantly telling me to eat --- and the more I eat the more I want. I hated that feeling of being "owned" by my appetite and not being able to control it. Now it feels like a normal relationship with food --- enjoyable and fun (I like to cook too) but not compulsive and obsessive.

I certainly get hungry though, and sometimes find myself grazing for "a little something." But it's nothing like before when I spent most of my waking hours fighting off the urge to eat --- or losing the battle. Hunger feels like a completely different phenomenon to me.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:31 PM   #36
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Cathy, from the article linked above:


Fat-adaption does not necessarily mean ketosis. Ketosis is ketosis. Fat-adaption describes the ability to burn both fat directly via beta-oxidation and glucose via glycolysis, while ketosis describes the use of fat-derived ketone bodies by tissues (like parts of the brain) that normally use glucose. A ketogenic diet “tells” your body that no or very little glucose is available in the environment. The result? “Impaired” glucose tolerance and “physiological” insulin resistance, which sound like negatives but are actually necessary to spare what little glucose exists for use in the brain. On the other hand, a well-constructed, lower-carb (but not full-blown ketogenic) Primal way of eating that leads to weight loss generally improves insulin sensitivity.
/end quote

So with fat-adapted, the body can efficiently burn fat for energy in the presence of some (but limited) carbs, and also use those easy-to-burn carbs for some needs. And with ketosis, because there is insufficient carbohydrate to power the body's needs, the body necessarily shifts to burning ketones instead of the energy from carbs.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:40 PM   #37
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. . . and thus the lower levels of ketones, mentioned in guy's point 2?

Or am I still missing something?
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Old 07-04-2013, 03:22 PM   #38
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I think the issue with it not being clear is that Sisson advocates primal at around 150 g carbs for persons who are not overweight.

Sisson says that a ketosis state is an effective tool for weight loss. In a ketogenic state, virtually all energy needs come from breaking down fat into fatty acids, which produces ketones, which are used for energy (and thus are running around in your blood stream to get to where they need to be).

On the other hand, with a person whose weight is where s/he wants it, it is good to become fat-adapted. This means that the body can burn carbs when they are around, and then when the carbs are depleted, the body easily turns to fat stores to get more energy. It accomplishes this by working well with insulin and other hormones, and the result is that the body is happy to burn fat, and excess fat does not get stored on our butts while our bellies cry out for more carb food. It is good to give the at-a-good weight body the carb energy it needs for bursts of exercise or other needs, and then have it shift over to using dietary fat for more lightly-paced activities. Thus, having a lot of ketones in the blood means that carb intake for a normal weight person needs to be adjusted up, because their bursts of energy are requiring more carbs than the food offers, so they are turning to burning fat more that they ought to. They are at the correct fatness so they don't want to burn through bunches of fat. (they can burn through their dietary fat,but that has to be sufficient so that they don't burn their body fat, because they have achieved an optimal body fat ratio)

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Old 07-04-2013, 04:28 PM   #39
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Speaking of falling off the wagon/going way out of ketosis.

Does anyone else have the symptom of mild...um...gassiness when you cheat even a little, like having a couple cookies? I do, every single time (but no gas that I can recall while consistently in ketosis or consistent VLC). That's about the only obvious symptom that I have right off and it doesn't last more than a day - maybe only a few hours - but then I want carbs regularly.

Probably a gut bacteria thing?

Sorry for the indelicacy; I'll make this one my real last question!
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:43 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by emel View Post
I think the issue with it not being clear is that Sisson advocates primal at around 150 g carbs for persons who are not overweight.

Sisson says that a ketosis state is an effective tool for weight loss. In a ketogenic state, virtually all energy needs come from breaking down fat into fatty acids, which produces ketones, which are used for energy (and thus are running around in your blood stream to get to where they need to be).

On the other hand, with a person whose weight is where s/he wants it, it is good to become fat-adapted. This means that the body can burn carbs when they are around, and then when the carbs are depleted, the body easily turns to fat stores to get more energy. It accomplishes this by working well with insulin and other hormones, and the result is that the body is happy to burn fat, and excess fat does not get stored on our butts while our bellies cry out for more carb food. It is good to give the at-a-good weight body the carb energy it needs for bursts of exercise or other needs, and then have it shift over to using dietary fat for more lightly-paced activities. Thus, having a lot of ketones in the blood means that carb intake for a normal weight person needs to be adjusted up, because their bursts of energy are requiring more carbs than the food offers, so they are turning to burning fat more that they ought to. They are at the correct fatness so they don't want to burn through bunches of fat. (they can burn through their dietary fat,but that has to be sufficient so that they don't burn their body fat, because they have achieved an optimal body fat ratio)
Thanks Emel. I am listening to the podcast and am getting mixed messages. I guess it would be fair to say that he is not in complete agreement with Phinney and Volek.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:44 PM   #41
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I think the issue with it not being clear is that Sisson advocates primal at around 150 g carbs for persons who are not overweight.

Sisson says that a ketosis state is an effective tool for weight loss. In a ketogenic state, virtually all energy needs come from breaking down fat into fatty acids, which produces ketones, which are used for energy (and thus are running around in your blood stream to get to where they need to be).

On the other hand, with a person whose weight is where s/he wants it, it is good to become fat-adapted. This means that the body can burn carbs when they are around, and then when the carbs are depleted, the body easily turns to fat stores to get more energy. It accomplishes this by working well with insulin and other hormones, and the result is that the body is happy to burn fat, and excess fat does not get stored on our butts while our bellies cry out for more carb food. It is good to give the at-a-good weight body the carb energy it needs for bursts of exercise or other needs, and then have it shift over to using dietary fat for more lightly-paced activities. Thus, having a lot of ketones in the blood means that carb intake for a normal weight person needs to be adjusted up, because their bursts of energy are requiring more carbs than the food offers, so they are turning to burning fat more that they ought to. They are at the correct fatness so they don't want to burn through bunches of fat. (they can burn through their dietary fat,but that has to be sufficient so that they don't burn their body fat, because they have achieved an optimal body fat ratio)
Thanks Emel. I am listening to the podcast and am getting mixed messages. I guess it would be fair to say that he is not in complete agreement with Phinney and Volek and their definitions and some other points.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:21 PM   #42
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Hey Cathy
I am sure you found it already but it is Jimmy Moore's Show "Ask the experts" The tiltle is "Ketosis: Devil or Angel?"
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:49 AM   #43
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I've found that you have to watch Phinney and Volek, too. Sometimes they give numbers about fat ratios or some other topic with regard to a person whose weight is correct. Those numbers won't/might not work for a person who wants to lose weight.
A lot of Phinney/Volek stuff is written about high performance for athletes.
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:33 AM   #44
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On the other hand, with a person whose weight is where s/he wants it, it is good to become fat-adapted. This means that the body can burn carbs when they are around, and then when the carbs are depleted, the body easily turns to fat stores to get more energy.
I've failed to understand whether this happens for someone/everyone who is following a strictly observant ketogenic WOE or only for high-end athletes/people like Dr Peter Attia who have unusual levels of activity. I've read the books and listened to the various interviews but I still haven't settled this in my mind. Is it clearer to someone else?

(I'm managing my migraines with a modified ketogenic WOE: I find myself dragging with little energy at times of the day so assume that I'm in the hinterland of adapting from one state to another albeit neither of them is the fat-adapted state.)

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Old 07-05-2013, 06:49 AM   #45
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Hey Cathy
I am sure you found it already but it is Jimmy Moore's Show "Ask the experts" The tiltle is "Ketosis: Devil or Angel?"
Yes I did. It is an early one of that series and I had listened to it at that time but am listening again! Thanks.

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I've found that you have to watch Phinney and Volek, too. Sometimes they give numbers about fat ratios or some other topic with regard to a person whose weight is correct. Those numbers won't/might not work for a person who wants to lose weight.
A lot of Phinney/Volek stuff is written about high performance for athletes.
I do believe that they also have a plethora of good clinical experience dealing with those that have metabolic syndrome (i.e. obese or overweight) due to Dr. Phinney's years of clinical work. And their first book is not about performance for athletes. It was mainly intended for p.c.p. in order to give them the information they needed to help patients do a proper n.k. woe.

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I've failed to understand whether this happens for someone/everyone who is following a strictly observant ketogenic WOE or only for high-end athletes/people like Dr Peter Attia who have unusual levels of activity. I've read the books and listened to the various interviews but I still haven't settled this in my mind. Is it clearer to someone else?

(I'm managing my migraines with a modified ketogenic WOE: I find myself dragging with little energy at times of the day so assume that I'm in the hinterland of adapting from one state to another albeit neither of them is the fat-adapted state.)
To your first question, yes I believe that it has to happen to everyone who gets their macros correct and stays adherent for as long as it takes. It is however, not going to work if one is having 'cheats' or some other pit fall. I will qualify that by saying that one may become keto adapted or fat adapted (I think they are the same) and not lose. That is another issue.

To your 2nd question, what is a modified ketogenic woe? If you are not eating to the proper macro nutrient levels to achieve ketosis and are back and forth, that could make one feel lacking in energy.
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:08 AM   #46
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To your 2nd question, what is a modified ketogenic woe? If you are not eating to the proper macro nutrient levels to achieve ketosis and are back and forth, that could make one feel lacking in energy.
It's moderate protein, controlled carbs etc but it's known as modified because it's using MCT oil (for anyone familiar with the ketogenic diets for epilepsy, the 'classic' one is the one that is below TDEE and approx 90% kcals from fat and the 'modified' one involves the use of MCT oil - that said, there are now 5 or more popular ketogenic flavours of diet in use by people with various neurological conditions). I'm not moving back and forth - I'd imagine people can be in a hinterland of adapting for some time.

However, I don't wish to threadjack.

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Old 07-05-2013, 08:37 AM   #47
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It's moderate protein, controlled carbs etc but it's known as modified because it's using MCT oil (for anyone familiar with the ketogenic diets for epilepsy, the 'classic' one is the one that is below TDEE and approx 90% kcals from fat and the 'modified' one involves the use of MCT oil - that said, there are now 5 or more popular ketogenic flavours of diet in use by people with various neurological conditions). I'm not moving back and forth - I'd imagine people can be in a hinterland of adapting for some time.

However, I don't wish to threadjack.
I too am using Ketosis as a way to control my migraines. Not the Johns Hopkins for epilepsy. May I PM you???
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Old 07-05-2013, 08:39 AM   #48
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I see that we are still on the main topic so I hope it is okay to respond one more time.

I have read that it can take some people a lot longer than the 2 to 3 wks. of adaption.

Btw, I would love to know more about the different ketogenic diets and would appreciate any push in the right direction! Thank you in advance!! I should say that I too have suffered from migraines and have had the beginnings of 2 'beginnings' since going keto and they both dissipated quickly with no pain.

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Old 07-05-2013, 10:42 AM   #49
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Volek suggests that the numbers for ketogenic are
<10% carbs
25-35% protein
55-65% fat

Phinney, who is at goal weight, does
70% fat
about 5% carb, with a ceiling of about 100-150 g
25% fat, but he states that absolute protein is more important than percentage. So find your protein range, stick to your carb limit, and eat the rest from fat. (He rides a bike a LOT, so sometimes his calories get pretty high. Also, he says we burn more calories than we think and that the numbers generated by a lot of the calculators are low--but I believe he's talking about a fit person who exercises, so that might not apply to an over-fat body of someone who does not exercise)

Elsewhere, I've read that Phinney says that a ketogenic diet for weight loss might look like a high protein diet because some of the fat needs are taken care of by burning body fat. So the protein might be as high as 40%, but as long as it is the correct protein amount for the body, that's okay. He tosses out 50 grams of carbs as an idea of a ceiling for achieving a ketogenic state and for burning body fat and dietary fat, but he acknowledges that some people are more metabolically resistant and have to go lower to get into a good fat-burning mode (Peter Attia was one who was guided by Phinney/Volek and had to go super-low on carbs).

Hope that helps.

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Old 07-05-2013, 10:53 AM   #50
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Westman has his plan, very similar to the atkins we all know....
That one is ketogenic so long as we meet the requirement of eating to satisfaction but not beyond. It's called Dr Eric Westman - Duke University New Atkins Ketogenic Diet for Weight Loss and Health.

Specifically post #10, but the whole thread is a good discussion.
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ma...no-starch.html
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Old 07-05-2013, 11:32 AM   #51
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I too am using Ketosis as a way to control my migraines. Not the Johns Hopkins for epilepsy. May I PM you???
Sure, however, I'm contributing to your thread on the NK board so it might be useful to continue there?

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Btw, I would love to know more about the different ketogenic diets and would appreciate any push in the right direction! Thank you in advance!! I should say that I too have suffered from migraines and have had the beginnings of 2 'beginnings' since going keto and they both dissipated quickly with no pain.
I'm going to pop some information in Spanilingo's (migraine) thread if that's OK: NK maintenance not weight loss
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:27 PM   #52
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I was starving in ketosis and gained weight. I was not willing to wait and see if I felt better when I became keto-adapted.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:32 PM   #53
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I don't know what to say..... since going low carb there are days I can barely force myself to eat, there are normal days, and days when I am ravenously hungry..... but the hungry days are far fewer than before I went low carb; that is for sure.
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