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Old 06-01-2013, 10:37 AM   #1
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Yet another frustration/stall thread...

So I'm going on on 4 weeks now of bouncing around within a 5 pound range, and am ready to scream. I'm killing myself working out, toeing the diet line, and I see my wedding goal slipping away.

Diet:
I've been spot on. Typical day looks something like this.

B - 3 strips bacon, 3 eggs, two slices of cheese, 1 serving LC ketchup, coffee (usually 2-3 cups 30 ML heavy cream and 30 ml davinci SF in each one.)
L - 3-5 oz pork shoulder or beef brisket
S - 30 grams macadamia nuts
D - 4 oz shredded chicken with 52 grams mayo + pepper and a splash of Davinci SF simple syrup, spinach salad w/shredded cheese (1-1.5 oz), and thousand island (mayo and LC ketchup)

Exercise:
Way off the charts. This last week looked like this:

Monday: 20 mile stationary bike ride on my mid plus core strength
Tuesday: 1600 yard swim
Wednesday: 1700 yard swim + core/leg strength day
Thursday: 20.5 mile ride on the tri bike
Friday: 2.5 mile run on the treadmill
Saturday (today): planning on another 20 mile ride as soon as breakfast settles.
Sunday: planning a 3-4 mile run

I'm sleeping well. Averaging 7-9 hours a night. I'm taking a mens multivitamin, looking at the ingredients, I don't see any sugar or weird binders in there that might be causing it.

My only vices (unless this stall keeps up), are diet soda and the occasional cigar. I'm trying to keep my soda intake to two 20oz bottles a day. I have had a couple of low carb beers, Miller 64's, but on those days I've kept my carb count low.

Help?
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Old 06-01-2013, 10:42 AM   #2
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Easy, replace the nuts and cheese with lc vegetables. And less of the sf syrup.

Last edited by suzanneyea; 06-01-2013 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 06-01-2013, 11:02 AM   #3
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I agree, ditch the cheese and nuts for awhile and see if that helps.
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Old 06-01-2013, 11:08 AM   #4
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I would agree - cut out cheese and nuts.

I would probably not have any beer as well. The alcohol will stop fat burning while your body burns off the alcohol calories first.

I don't know what kind of low carb ketchup you are using, but is it possible you are overusing that? (ie getting a lot of extra carbs from that?).
In general, condiments - including salad dressings and mayo - are something that I have to strictly portion control. It looks like you are weighing or measuring things which is good, but its something to be aware of.

Cream is another thing to be careful with. It appears you are actually measuring... but even then, if you are drinking 3 cups of coffee with 30 ml cream each - that's about 300 extra calories from cream a day. So that could be something else to moderate.

Last edited by Strawberry; 06-01-2013 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 06-01-2013, 11:10 AM   #5
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I've noticed that the bacon did awful things to me. It's the salt in the bacon that I've become sensitive to. My body just absorbs the water with the salt and keeps it there. Try replacing with another meat that is less salty.
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Old 06-01-2013, 11:15 AM   #6
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Yes I weigh everything that goes in my mouth. I average somewhere between 1600-2400 calories a day. I know that's a big range, but considering I'm still a big dude, and the amount of activity I'm doing I figured that was still well within norms.

Alright, no cream or cheese starting now.
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Old 06-01-2013, 11:38 AM   #7
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Good luck! I'm sure you can do this!
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Old 06-01-2013, 11:42 AM   #8
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Hi CTIgrad, I am still fairly new, so other more experienced people will know more than I do, but I can tell you than when I did cut out the nuts and the cheese, and only drink white wine instead of any ofter kind of alcohol (and that only 5 oz every other day at MOST), I caught some progress and the stall-out ended.

The other thing is, you do not seem to be eating very much at all, and esp not enough meat --3-5 oz at lunch? I would be hungry all afternoon. If I get 8 oz I feel satisfied all afternoon (if there is enough fat in it, and NO sugary tastes). I can see that 4 oz chicken at dinner, maybe, but for me, a person who started 160 and am now down to 135-138, and working on it, what did it was eating truly a lot of meat and then a big raw salad with the meat (for me 5-6 oz did it) at dinner, I mean like 2-3 cups, with nothing on it--flavor comes from the variety of greens: add parsley, arugula, etc for different tastes and you don't miss the dressings.

It was easier for me to cut ALL sweets instead of trying to cling to that davinci sstevia etc taste---it was easier just to give that up completely.

You are plenty active, so feed those muscles!

Again, I am not as experienced as most here, but that is what works for me and will break the stall. Gary Taubes's book Why We Get Fat and what to do about it is what I use but many options work. Good luck to you!
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Old 06-01-2013, 12:33 PM   #9
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When you exercise a lot, many folks have stalls from weight loss, but big changes in measurements. Are you measuring?
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Old 06-01-2013, 12:41 PM   #10
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I also wonder if you're measuring.

I had a period of almost three months during which I bounced around the same weight, but I was steadily losing inches. I was not in a stall. After a while, the scale started moving again, and I didn't change a thing.

A stall is 6 weeks with no weight or inches lost.

IMO, people get impatient and start changing things unnecessarily, when the body is just doing some adjusting.

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Old 06-01-2013, 01:02 PM   #11
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For me my big thing that seemed to keep me from losing weight was the bacon. Probably the excess salt, but I cut it out, and replaced it with other fats like avocados, sour cream, and mayo and I've been able to keep up a steady loss for 2 months.
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Old 06-01-2013, 01:09 PM   #12
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Exercise does not facilitate weight loss....
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Old 06-01-2013, 01:52 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Exercise does not facilitate weight loss....
I'd like to see some proof of this. Every training book/triathlon book I've read uses a combination of diet plus exercise to shed pounds while maintaining muscle mass.

While it is possible that through pure diet to lose weight, some of that weight will be a loss of muscle mass.
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Old 06-01-2013, 01:55 PM   #14
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For proof, look at me. I lost all my weight, both times, with no exercise. I spent all my time in my twenties at the gym, on a low fat, low calorie diet. I was heavy.
Or, you can read Gary taubes, why we get fat, he explains why exercise is healthy, but does not help one lose weight.
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Old 06-01-2013, 01:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
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For me my big thing that seemed to keep me from losing weight was the bacon. Probably the excess salt, but I cut it out, and replaced it with other fats like avocados, sour cream, and mayo and I've been able to keep up a steady loss for 2 months.
I was wondering this same thing. I love my thick cut bacon, and even with it, as I watch my nutrition throughout the day, my sodium intake isn't that high for someone that is exercising as much as I am. I average around 3000mg a day. A bit high, but for what I'm losing on a daily basis in sweat, I think think I'm within norms.
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Old 06-01-2013, 01:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I'd like to see some proof of this. Every training book/triathlon book I've read uses a combination of diet plus exercise to shed pounds while maintaining muscle mass.

While it is possible that through pure diet to lose weight, some of that weight will be a loss of muscle mass.
Yes, they use a combination, but that doesn't mean it's necessary for weight loss. There is ample evidence that exercise does not contribute in a statistically significant way to fat loss.

It's like eating low fat to lose fat. It makes sense instinctively, but it's not necessarily true.
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
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I also wonder if you're measuring.

I had a period of almost three months during which I bounced around the same weight, but I was steadily losing inches. I was not in a stall. After a while, the scale started moving again, and I didn't change a thing.

A stall is 6 weeks with no weight or inches lost.

IMO, people get impatient and start changing things unnecessarily, when the body is just doing some adjusting.
I have, but very infrequently. Like once every other month or so. I was going to have the fiance measure me tomorrow morning. I'll post up what happens.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EmmaPeel View Post
Hi CTIgrad, I am still fairly new, so other more experienced people will know more than I do, but I can tell you than when I did cut out the nuts and the cheese, and only drink white wine instead of any ofter kind of alcohol (and that only 5 oz every other day at MOST), I caught some progress and the stall-out ended.

The other thing is, you do not seem to be eating very much at all, and esp not enough meat --3-5 oz at lunch? I would be hungry all afternoon. If I get 8 oz I feel satisfied all afternoon (if there is enough fat in it, and NO sugary tastes). I can see that 4 oz chicken at dinner, maybe, but for me, a person who started 160 and am now down to 135-138, and working on it, what did it was eating truly a lot of meat and then a big raw salad with the meat (for me 5-6 oz did it) at dinner, I mean like 2-3 cups, with nothing on it--flavor comes from the variety of greens: add parsley, arugula, etc for different tastes and you don't miss the dressings.

It was easier for me to cut ALL sweets instead of trying to cling to that davinci sstevia etc taste---it was easier just to give that up completely.

You are plenty active, so feed those muscles!
The fiance thinks this as well. That I'm not eating enough. Its hard for me to cut out the Davinci in the coffee. My drink of choice is a Venti Mocha with white chocolate french vanilla. Thats a no no on LC, so I'm suffering with drip/americanos and the SF stuff.

Some one asked, and I cant remember where about the LC Ketchup. Its the Heinz Brand stuff, 1 carb in 16 grams. I typically use one serving on my eggs, and maybe one or two more throughout the day. Yes I measure each time.
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:10 PM   #18
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I weigh daily, measure monthly. You don't need to measure often.
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTIgrad View Post
I'd like to see some proof of this. Every training book/triathlon book I've read uses a combination of diet plus exercise to shed pounds while maintaining muscle mass.

While it is possible that through pure diet to lose weight, some of that weight will be a loss of muscle mass.
Technically exercise CAN help with weight loss, however it's an extremely small amount of the overall benefit. I've heard mostly napkin math on the subject, but most communities dedicated to overall health, weight training, diet, and exercise will tell you it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% diet 10% exercise. The amount of exercise required to burn off any significant calories is extremely high. Most of the time when you're at the gym on an elliptical or using an app on your phone to determine caloric burn, they take into consideration your Base Metabolic Rate, which is the lions share of the burnt calories during your workout session.

Granted if you're a marathon runner, or an extremely high intensity exerciser, your caloric burn will be higher. However the problem is that to maintain this sort of workout, your body needs energy stores readily available. Fat stores when in a ketogenic state are still burned as a fuel source so the excess calories come from that, but you're going to be right back to hungry pretty quickly again. This is how targeted ketogenic diets work, you consume higher carbs to fuel you through the workout so you can go longer distances, however your body burns it up by depleting the recently refueled glygogen stores, this in turn allows you to reenter ketosis soon after a workout without having to wait another 2-3 days to readjust.

Again most of this is anecdotal evidence from workout forums so take it with that in mind. However if you do some brief searches online, you'll get a lot of people repeating the idea that the biggest part of weight loss is in your diet, not exercise. Weight training is a great way to boost your base metabolic rate, however the muscle you build won't necessarily drastically alter your BMR to the point where you find you can consume LOTS more calories. Instead I find that at least in my own personal experience, it tends to dampen the effect of insulin and blood sugar spikes allowing me greater sustained energy through the day, and more overall motivation to keep moving.

So if you build muscle to keep your energy high from your low carb foods, and you get the natural apetite suppressing ability of a low carb diet, you will naturally be expending more energy, and consuming less calories, without feeling as tired, or being as hungry. This is a pretty simplistic view of it, and by no means me trying to spout off the lame "calories in vs calories out" line which I have a big problem with.

So if you eat low carb and find yourself with an abundance of energy, please use it to exercise, be active with your kids or pets, or any activity that keeps you moving it will improve things other than your scale weight, and even a 10% benefit, is more than the 0% benefit of sitting around doing nothing.
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:46 PM   #20
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Are you losing inches?? Muscle weighs more than fat.
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:47 PM   #21
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Yes, weight training is better for aiding fat loss.

We're not saying don't exercise, we're just saying don't expect it to contribute much to your loss.
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:56 PM   #22
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I would say that exercise is not necessary to lose weight, I am proof of that. While not necessary, I have recently started exercising for the cardio health benefits and to tone what muscle I do have. You might be building muscle, since you are a guy and doing a lot of exercise. So there is no change in the scale it could possibly be the muscle you are gaining replacing some fat loss. The only way to know is if your body fat percentage has gone down (if you recorded it at the beginning) or if you took body measurements.
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Old 06-01-2013, 03:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTIgrad View Post
I'd like to see some proof of this. Every training book/triathlon book I've read uses a combination of diet plus exercise to shed pounds while maintaining muscle mass.

While it is possible that through pure diet to lose weight, some of that weight will be a loss of muscle mass.
Other posters have already answered quite nicely this question. The reason I brought this up is that it is possible to over exercise and be counter productive to weight loss. Look up adrenal fatigue.
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Old 06-01-2013, 03:38 PM   #24
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Phinney and Volek say Weight training aides in losing LESS weight from your lean body parts, such as muscles, and correspondingly, more weight loss that is fat. This is a good thing. I think the question is are you enjoying the amount of exercise you do? If you love it, I believe there's a way to make it work for you with your LC woe. Perhaps less cardio and more weights---seems like a lot of your works are more cardio oriented.

Are your clothes fitting any differently? Measurements are great because they tell you the exact numbers, but w/out the benefit of measuring I often find my clothes are loser even if I'm not dropping as much as I'd like or some weeks, not at all. The scale is dumb in that it cannot tell you where the weight is, whether it's muscle of water or fat. But your clothes CAN tell you when your body is getting smaller.
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Old 06-01-2013, 04:42 PM   #25
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Dropping back on the cardio really isn't an option. I'm training for a sprint triathlon in September and an Olympic tri in the early spring. I'm doing two days a week strength training. I'm hesitant to add more in as it tears up my body and hampers me in my longer rides/runs.

My wardrobe is fitting better. Most of my clothes are loose. I had to just order new shorts, even with my belt they were falling off me.

I'll run with dumping the HWC and cheese, as well as eating more and see what happens.
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:57 PM   #26
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Hey CTI, sorry to hear you are stuck. I honestly think though that the exercise has something to do with it . I don't know if you are relying on ketosis and being ketoadapted. If that is the case it may be that your body is only partially adapted, i.e you got through the brain fog etc but now that you are training hard the holdouts don't convert as easily to ketones as they simply get burned before they reach their destination,ie called off for more immediate tasks. In answer to that your body is holding on to weight. If cutting back even for a week is not an option I would increase the fat intake, but ditch the cheese and nuts and look for a least protein fat.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:42 PM   #27
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If your clothes are fitting better, your energy is good, and you aren't hungry, only change things if you want to - but it likely isn't necessary. If you're in a true stall of both pounds and inches, then I'd be dropping the things mentioned by the other posters.
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Old 06-02-2013, 01:49 PM   #28
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Quote:
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I'd like to see some proof of this. Every training book/triathlon book I've read uses a combination of diet plus exercise to shed pounds while maintaining muscle mass.

While it is possible that through pure diet to lose weight, some of that weight will be a loss of muscle mass.
I lost all my weight without exercise lol.. Did it all in 5months... I'm just saying. I have close friend that's a trainer and he was completely shocked
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:12 AM   #29
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Quote:
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Dropping back on the cardio really isn't an option. I'm training for a sprint triathlon in September and an Olympic tri in the early spring. I'm doing two days a week strength training. I'm hesitant to add more in as it tears up my body and hampers me in my longer rides/runs.

My wardrobe is fitting better. Most of my clothes are loose. I had to just order new shorts, even with my belt they were falling off me.

I'll run with dumping the HWC and cheese, as well as eating more and see what happens.
Sounds like your body is evolving positively despite what the scale says.
I think substituting fatty meat for some of the HwC and cheese is a great idea.
Chicken thighs with skin, braised beef with the fat on it (shortribs braised with broth, celery, and onion with sea salt, a little vinegar, and something spicy comes to mind). salmon with hollandaise. lox omelet---try it w/a few leaves of spinach and 2 thin tomato slices in it. it moistens it up so you don't miss the cheese.
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:08 AM   #30
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Quote:
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Sounds like your body is evolving positively despite what the scale says.
I think substituting fatty meat for some of the HwC and cheese is a great idea.
Chicken thighs with skin, braised beef with the fat on it (shortribs braised with broth, celery, and onion with sea salt, a little vinegar, and something spicy comes to mind). salmon with hollandaise. lox omelet---try it w/a few leaves of spinach and 2 thin tomato slices in it. it moistens it up so you don't miss the cheese.
Ill have to try some of those. I've never had hollindaise, interesting. I plan on smoking a brisket tomorrow so that should work for a fatty meat.
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