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marieze 05-29-2013 07:51 AM

Quickly....I need to respond to someone....
 
Who is arguing that while she agrees the food pyramid is crap, every group on it should be eatin in moderation AND that eating fat isn't bad but it can still clog your arteries....clogging your arteries is what I don't know what to say to her...while I don't believe it I don't know the science behind it.....

Ntombi 05-29-2013 08:00 AM

Fat isn't what clogs arteries. Eating high carb and high fat does that. Eating low carb/high fat is heart-healthiest, and eating low fat/high carb is second. Whichever program the person can stick to is best for them, but fat isn't the enemy.

Some fats are heart-protective, like the medium chain fatty acids in coconut oil, and the omega 3 fatty acids in fish oils. Hydrogenated oils are the bad stuff, and no one should be eating them.

Maybe someone will come in with studies for you. I'm on my iPhone, and they're in my laptop. But really, she'll believe what she wants to.

SweetMe678 05-29-2013 08:03 AM

lol, i'm not sure i have a short answer for you. TRANS fats do increase the level of blood cholesterol. I am not sure if I am remembering the study numbers right and I can't find it quickly right now as it is on my other computer, but. the human body MAKES something like 2000mg a day and eating a diet HIGH (something like 150g a day) in saturated fats only adds like 100 mg, while a diet high in trans fats can add as much as 3-400 mg.

Other fats, such as coconut/olive/ etc have even less of an impact.

Also saturated fat is an important precursor to vitamin D absorption. (I don't remember at all how that worked though)

So it isn't necessarily about the amount of fat, it is about the TYPE of fat.

anglgrl 05-29-2013 08:22 AM

HEALTHY DIETS AND SCIENCE: Cholesterol and Heart Disease
Fats, Cholesterol and Cardiovascular Disease Information Point
Here's two sites that should help you argue your point (or you can send them to her and have her read them herself).

biancasteeplechase 05-29-2013 08:51 AM

Gary Taubes writes a lot about how arteries get clogged, though a lot of it's in Good Calories, Bad Calories - I liked GCBC, but some people find it slow going.

Here's a brief version:

Clogged arteries are correlated with small LDL particles, which get into the artery walls. Large LDL particles aren't so bad about this.

But low-carb diets increase your average LDL particle size - which means they lower your risk of clogged arteries by comparison. (LDL is the so-called "bad cholesterol").

Furthermore, the reason we care about clogged arteries in the first place is because of heart disease. But high levels of HDL (often called "good cholesterol") are associated with lower risk of heart disease. And low-carb diets will raise HDL.

As for everything in moderation ... we don't recommend that people smoke tobacco and eat trans fats in moderation, or do other unhealthy things in moderation. (Imagine ads saying "Safe driving is good - in moderation! Run a red light every day! Get some variety in your driving!")

NineOhNine 05-29-2013 09:01 AM

The way I understand it, there isn't just some mysterious process by which arteries get "clogged." What happens is that they are damaged by inflammation and then the body attempts to heal them, which causes plaques. It's not like random food substances just stick in your blood vessels or something. Sugar, grains, industrial oils, and transfats may cause inflammation, among other substances and conditions.

Punkin 05-29-2013 09:41 AM

Ok, I have to ask since everyone has already answered your question. Why are you arguing with someone? Who cares what they think? You know what works for you, I would just let other people think whatever they want and go about your own business.

marieze 05-29-2013 10:05 AM

Thanks for the scientific backup you guys! Even though I've been doing this a long time and have read all the data through the years...retention is quite another story! Any other scientific backup is always appreciated so feel free to share what you too have learned!

Donamo 05-29-2013 10:14 AM

One item that I remember from Phinney is that there are two types of LDL particles, small ones and big fluffy ones. The small ones can get into and under the protective sheathing on the inside of your arteries whereas the big ones cannot. The small ones then are to be avoided, they are the ones that cause plaque build up. I remember that the fats we eat, in particular mono and saturated produce the large LDL particles as well as HDL. I can't remember for sure just what produces the small ones but maybe someone else can jump in with that.

marieze 05-29-2013 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punkin (Post 16445338)
Ok, I have to ask since everyone has already answered your question. Why are you arguing with someone? Who cares what they think? You know what works for you, I would just let other people think whatever they want and go about your own business.

Really? Was looking for scientific evidence, not life coaching...I'm a big girl and can choose my arguments wisely :laugh:

Blue Skies 05-29-2013 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biancasteeplechase (Post 16445265)
... we don't recommend that people smoke tobacco and eat trans fats in moderation, or do other unhealthy things in moderation. (Imagine ads saying "Safe driving is good - in moderation! Run a red light every day! Get some variety in your driving!")

Excellent point Bianca, and one that I was just reading last night in "The Art and Science of..." put a different way. The authors make the point that some are clearly insulin resistent which translates to having an intolerance for carbs. They ask, would you tell someone w/celiac's disease to balance their diet w/bread? Would you tell someone who is lactose intolerant to balance their diet w/milk?

It's really kind of crazy the way the medical/health industry just cannot see their way around the obvious when it comes to LC eating. The fear of fat makes them blind to nutritional science they ought to understand well by this time. And in the mean time, they're very happy to tell comeone who is carb intolerant to eat more carbs. Like I said. Crazy.

marieze 05-29-2013 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Skies (Post 16445466)
Excellent point Bianca, and one that I was just reading last night in "The Art and Science of..." put a different way. The authors make the point that some are clearly insulin resistent which translates to having an intolerance for carbs. They ask, would you tell someone w/celiac's disease to balance their diet w/bread? Would you tell someone who is lactose intolerant to balance their diet w/milk?

It's really kind of crazy the way the medical/health industry just cannot see their way around the obvious when it comes to LC eating. The fear of fat makes them blind to nutritional science they ought to understand well by this time. And in the mean time, they're very happy to tell comeone who is carb intolerant to eat more carbs. Like I said. Crazy.

Dang...EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT POINT!!!!

:goodpost:

SugarFreeSheila 05-30-2013 10:52 AM

You've lost almost 150 pounds already. Good job. She can keep her "moderation"!

Janknitz 05-30-2013 03:58 PM

I like Kris Gunnars Authority Nutrition Blog and he recently posted "It Ain't the Fat People!"

He sets out the points and supports each one with evidence-based research:
Cholesterol and the Risk of Heart Disease
Saturated Fats Don't Raise LDL Much, if at All
Saturated Fats Don't Harm the Lipid Blood Profile
Low Fat Diets Make your Cholesterol WORSE
Saturated Fats and Heart Disease--Where's the Proof? (There's NONE!)
Saturated Fats may LOWER the risk of stroke
Good Fats, Bad Fats
It's Time to Retire the Myth (that fat is bad)

It would be excellent to point this post out to you're artery clogging friend, but don't expect her to change her mind. It rarely happens.

GME 05-30-2013 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineOhNine (Post 16445279)
The way I understand it, there isn't just some mysterious process by which arteries get "clogged." What happens is that they are damaged by inflammation and then the body attempts to heal them, which causes plaques. It's not like random food substances just stick in your blood vessels or something. Sugar, grains, industrial oils, and transfats may cause inflammation, among other substances and conditions.

This.

The cholesterol that "clogs" your arteries is working like band aids and your body will produce all the cholesterol needs to try to patch up the wounds caused by inflammation- regardless of how much fat or cholesterol you eat.

metqa 05-30-2013 10:30 PM

I wrote an analogy some time ago comparing arterial plaque to wall spackle. Just having it in your house(diet) doesn't make it stick to your walls. You must have damage to the walls that need to be repaired in order for spackle to be applied. And if you keep damaging the same wall, you will keep applying more spackle. until the walls are ugly and warped. Spackle doesn't just fly out of the bucket on it's own to cover clean undamaged walls. The things that damage the walls are oxidizers and pH changers and physical damagers like smoking, alcohol, high blood sugar, High blood sugar with High Ketones, high blood pressure, High cortisal, High triglicerides from consumption of carbohydrates, High transfats from consumption of artificially hydrogenated fats, Omega 3:6 imbalance from consuming too much seed oils, ... As well as illness , genetic factors and environment, some thing out of our control.

If a person keep being exposed to these damaging elements, their bodies will keep trying to repair. But a person can have high cholesterol, or high fat in their diet, and have perfectly healthy arteries that are not damaged and therefore not "clogged" with plaque. In fact the plaque "clogging" the arteries is not like your pipes filled with solid fat but the plaque is actually within the walls, on the initial site of the damage and then the cell wall grows over the patch. That's what it is a patch,not a spot of clog that you can get rid of like pouring draino into it. Eating oatmeal is not going to make oatmeal flow through your arteries sweeping away the gooey fat sticking to the arteries like beef fat in the drain. That's not real no matter how many cute animations are made.

Fats also are necessary for hormone production, the same hormones that keep you healthy as you age. Fats help to prevent brittle hips in old age. Low Cholesterol is bad for the elderly. Makes skin and bones more fragile.

Mobear 05-31-2013 04:48 AM

Thanks Metqa for the great explanation :)!!

lanita 05-31-2013 06:06 AM

This is very informative and understandable. Thank you for this, Metga!

metqa 05-31-2013 01:04 PM

Pleasure. It helps to change the perspective sometimes, and know what is truly dangerous to health.


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