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Old 05-28-2013, 04:49 PM   #1
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can exercise knock you out of ketosis?

I did a super insane zumba class last wednesday (first time) and I have been exhausted (despite sleeping 12 hours three nights in a row) ever since. I've had no energy during the day, don't want to do my workouts, and I want carbs sooooo bad. Could it have actually knocked me out of ketosis, for days? Or is there something else I'm not thinking of that has knocked me out? I haven't started taking any new meds or anything like that and my diet has not changed one iota.

Also, I normally go into ketosis super easy, like in the first day of low carbing. I think the rest of you have to sort of wait for your bodies to catch up, but I just stop injecting insulin and I'm there. I am not doing any extra insulin, in fact, I may be doing a bit less.

I suppose I probably am still in ketosis, if so, what's the deal with the intense hunger/carb craving/low energy????
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Old 05-28-2013, 05:16 PM   #2
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I could only guess the intense exercise, but I really have no idea.
I find that a little exercise goes a long way these carb cutting days.
I was mowing yesterday (good size area, with some rough terrain) and had to take a break and then finish later. THe good thing was I was so tired I didn't need a snack and I slept well.
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Old 05-28-2013, 05:27 PM   #3
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Intense exercise can work against you in that the muscles will uptake glucose from your bloodstream after you finish the exercise to replace their lost glycogen, this drops the blood sugar and puts stress on the brain, as you experience the effects of hypoglycemia. To some extent having a high level of blood ketones can buffer the effect, but it depends on how easily your adipose cells release their stored fat. Unfortunately the brain still uses some glucose for energy, which is the reason it doesn't like the drop in blood sugar. If you are trying to lose weight or are trying to live in permanently in a ketogenic state, it is best to participate only in low intensity exercise, and be careful with any exercise which might cause a drop in blood sugar, due to the muscles trying to replenish lost glycogen too quickly.
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Old 05-28-2013, 05:29 PM   #4
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Sounds like I had a drop in blood sugar while mowing.
I am glad I recogniized I needed a break.
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:57 PM   #5
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Well... I think I have, at least temporarily, solved this problem. I had a large serving of chili for dinner and still felt ravenous and was really feeling like there was no way I was gonna survive target in that state, so I had 2 1/2 T peanut butter w a packet of truvia and wow, I'm stuffed! I know that peanut butter is calorie dense, but who woulda thought that I could go from starving to stuffed w 2 1/2 T of anything?!!

So here I am following my kid through the toy section w/o a worry.
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:59 PM   #6
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Intense exercise can work against you in that the muscles will uptake glucose from your bloodstream after you finish the exercise to replace their lost glycogen, this drops the blood sugar and puts stress on the brain, as you experience the effects of hypoglycemia. To some extent having a high level of blood ketones can buffer the effect, but it depends on how easily your adipose cells release their stored fat. Unfortunately the brain still uses some glucose for energy, which is the reason it doesn't like the drop in blood sugar. If you are trying to lose weight or are trying to live in permanently in a ketogenic state, it is best to participate only in low intensity exercise, and be careful with any exercise which might cause a drop in blood sugar, due to the muscles trying to replenish lost glycogen too quickly.
I'm not sure if this could be relevant to me, since I calibrate my insulin myself, I kinda decide what my blood sugar is gonna be. There may be some effect of all that that goes beyond b/s though.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:02 PM   #7
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Intense exercise can work against you in that the muscles will uptake glucose from your bloodstream after you finish the exercise to replace their lost glycogen, this drops the blood sugar and puts stress on the brain, as you experience the effects of hypoglycemia. To some extent having a high level of blood ketones can buffer the effect, but it depends on how easily your adipose cells release their stored fat. Unfortunately the brain still uses some glucose for energy, which is the reason it doesn't like the drop in blood sugar. If you are trying to lose weight or are trying to live in permanently in a ketogenic state, it is best to participate only in low intensity exercise, and be careful with any exercise which might cause a drop in blood sugar, due to the muscles trying to replenish lost glycogen too quickly.
Hey Punkin, I believe what rubidoux is describing, and you are adding in on is called "bonking" by athletes, but can also happen with non athletes. Funny, but I was just reading about this last night in "The Art and science of Low carb living." Wish I had a photographic memory and could just write what those authors said, but you pretty much got right to it in short hand.

The authors of this book swear that you can take on higher intensity sports, w/out carbing up, such as say running, once you are totally adapted to fat burning. But I'm not sure this is true, via my own experience---which is highly mitigated I admit, by my age and the fact that I'm far from in good shape when it comes to physical exercise. It's hard to know where the LC woe comes in, vs. just being out of shape.

I am currently trying to add in "gentle" exercise, and by that I mean walking more often. Still, even that tires me out more than it would have on a higher carb woe. I don't think this means a LC woe is bad for exercise, I simply think it means that "adaptation" is serious business---takes time, tweaking, and growing into, all things individual to who we are and in what shape we were in when we started.

One thing I think is true---one cannot cut carbs, calories, AND exercise at high intensity and not feel "bonked", unless one has a super lucky metabolic system.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:56 PM   #8
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Blue Skies, I think some of that depends on what kind of low carb you're doing. But I have always had more energy and felt better exercising while eating low carb even when I was running and doing straight up Atkins. A couple of years ago I did a diet that was basically just HWC, hamburger, bacon, and 2 ounces of cheddar a day and I was planning on NOT exercising, but at some point, I'm guessing the point when Phinney and Volek would say I became ketoadapted, I felt like I was going to crawl out of my skin if I didn't start exercising. Now I'm doing nutritional ketosis and it's similar. I feel so, so much more energetic and ready to exercise than I ever did when eating carbs.

I really think this is why fat people are thought of as *lazy*. It's not any sort of moral thing, it's bc our bodies were so busy storing fat and so stingy about allowing us any energy to actually use that laying around on the couch was about all we could do, or at least all I could do. I swear, if the rest of the world has always had this kind of energy, then they've had a big advantage!

Anyhow, Blue Skies, I wonder if there's some way that you can get ketosis to work better for you, or be in a deeper state of ketosis or something, bc it doesn't seem like you're getting this benefit and it's pretty nice to have.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:44 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by rubidoux View Post
I did a super insane zumba class last wednesday (first time) and I have been exhausted (despite sleeping 12 hours three nights in a row) ever since. I've had no energy during the day, don't want to do my workouts, and I want carbs sooooo bad. Could it have actually knocked me out of ketosis, for days?
This actually sounds, to me, like a "cortisol" problem. I think cortisol is often unfairly maligned in a lot of dieting literature -- cortisol is actually a catabolic hormone that supports fat loss dieting in some very complicated ways. But one of the things that can happen as the result of an *exaggerated* cortisol release in response to physical stress is the up-regulation of the conversion of amino acids into glucose by the liver.

Basically, if you put an intense amount of physical stress on your body -- for example with an "insane" amount of Zumba -- that *could* cause an exaggerated release of cortisol, which would cause your body to either convert more dietary protein into glucose or even to break down your muscle tissue and convert your body protein into glucose. This happens because the physical stress has sent signals through your body to indicate that you need additional energy, which your hormonal systems interpret as the need for more glucose (especially if you are diabetic or have otherwise irregular blood sugar levels), and the body responds to these signals by releasing a flood of cortisol, which activates the process of breaking down protein and making more blood glucose.

This is actually a survival response. For example, the body secretes more cortisol during the stress of weight training or sprinting so that additional glucose is produced, which means that the muscles will be able to maintain steady blood glucose levels throughout the activity, even while the muscles are pulling larger amounts of glucose out of the bloodstream.

Cortisol is *typically* not a problem -- even on fat reducing diets because the body is VERY smart about balancing cortisol with insulin, even on a ketogenic diet. HOWEVER, if your body has *irregular* insulin patterns, then it may also have correspondingly irregular cortisol patterns, which could cause you to have more extreme problems with cortisol release than is typical and your insulin response may not be sufficiently calibrated to address the imbalance.

These cortisol problems are not talked about as commonly as problems with insulin resistance, but cortisol is also a component of the "metabolic syndrome."
The increase in GP [glucose production] was due entirely to an increase in gluconeogenesis, determined by either the HS or the TK method (66±6% and 65±5% of GP respectively; P < 0.05). Thus cortisol administration in humans increases GP by stimulating gluconeogenesis. Smaller increases in serum cortisol may contribute to the abnormal glucose metabolism known to occur in the metabolic syndrome.

Cortisol increases gluconeogenesis in humans: its role in the metabolic syndrome.
Clinical Science (2001) 101, 739-747 - S. Khani and J. A. Tayek - Cortisol increases gluconeogenesis in humans
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:57 PM   #10
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I should also mention that if your body didn't have enough dietary protein to use as a substrate for glucose -- and it broke down body protein to produce additional glucose -- this could also affect the body's potassium balance, which could lead to fatigue or even feelings of illness until the potassium levels are rebalanced.

Just another weird, random metabolic observation that might not even apply to you!
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Old 05-29-2013, 02:02 AM   #11
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Ok, so lifting weights whilst doing Atkins induction isn't a good idea?
I lift fairly heavy 4 times a week, take an extra protein shake and creatine daily. Could this be slowing my weight loss? I only lost 4lbs in 16 days so far. I don't feel anymore tired at the gym than before I started Atkins, but if this will actually slow results, I'm prepared to stop for the time being, although ill need to do some kind of exercise otherwise ill go insane.
And when can I start lifting for mass again? Once I'm on maintenance?
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Old 05-29-2013, 03:03 AM   #12
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I am an amateur athlete so I have had to do a lot of testing of my blood sugar and ketones to know what type of exercise to be doing and what to be eating to support that. I have noticed that weight lifting does not significantly affect my blood glucose. So unless you are really doing a lot of it, I wouldn't worry about lifting weights.

The drop in BG was something I noticed with higher intensity exercising, such as cross country skiing and running. Other things like low intensity cycling and walking cause a rise in ketones and do not affect BG. It might depend on the person and how well they are adapted to the exercise. For some people, running might be a low intensity exercise especially if they are used to running marathons. I passed out briefly once in the grocery store after 1 hour of intense exercise and my blood glucose had dropped really low. But now I make sure to keep my ketones high to prevent that from happening. It seems to work, but I still think when your blood sugar drops you will still crave carbs. I notice I am not hungry when my blood ketones are high and my blood sugar is stable.
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Old 05-29-2013, 05:26 AM   #13
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Blue Skies, I think some of that depends on what kind of low carb you're doing. But I have always had more energy and felt better exercising while eating low carb even when I was running and doing straight up Atkins. A couple of years ago I did a diet that was basically just HWC, hamburger, bacon, and 2 ounces of cheddar a day and I was planning on NOT exercising, but at some point, I'm guessing the point when Phinney and Volek would say I became ketoadapted, I felt like I was going to crawl out of my skin if I didn't start exercising. Now I'm doing nutritional ketosis and it's similar. I feel so, so much more energetic and ready to exercise than I ever did when eating carbs.

I really think this is why fat people are thought of as *lazy*. It's not any sort of moral thing, it's bc our bodies were so busy storing fat and so stingy about allowing us any energy to actually use that laying around on the couch was about all we could do, or at least all I could do. I swear, if the rest of the world has always had this kind of energy, then they've had a big advantage!

Anyhow, Blue Skies, I wonder if there's some way that you can get ketosis to work better for you, or be in a deeper state of ketosis or something, bc it doesn't seem like you're getting this benefit and it's pretty nice to have.
I understand what you're saying rubout, and as I stated in my post, I'm pretty out of shape and surely that's part of the problem. But it's not that I don't have energy. I feel quite energetic, unless I push myself on the exercise. I'm pretty sure I'm Keo-adapted as I've been eating an average of 30 carbs a day for 2 months. Under 50 for the 2 months before that. If I'd been exercising all along I'm sure it would be better, but I just started trying to add it in recently.
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Old 05-29-2013, 05:52 AM   #14
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Ok, so lifting weights whilst doing Atkins induction isn't a good idea?
I lift fairly heavy 4 times a week, take an extra protein shake and creatine daily. Could this be slowing my weight loss? I only lost 4lbs in 16 days so far. I don't feel anymore tired at the gym than before I started Atkins, but if this will actually slow results, I'm prepared to stop for the time being, although ill need to do some kind of exercise otherwise ill go insane.
And when can I start lifting for mass again? Once I'm on maintenance?
Trillex knows more about weight-training science than I do, so I'll just make this note ...

Some studies have shown that while, on average, people lose the same amount of weight on low-carb regardless of the type of exercise they do. HOWEVER, the subjects doing weight training and cardio lost much, much less muscle mass than the ones doing low-carb alone.

Volek and Phinney's The Art and Science of Low-Carbohydrate Living discusses the research.

I'm sure someone will chime in to suggest that you're currently losing fat and also gaining muscle - because someone says that to anyone who's not losing as much as they'd like. However, from what I've read, that only applies to beginners - and it doesn't sound like you are one. Later in their training, people alternate gaining mass and losing fat, because you can't do both at the same time indefinitely.
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:30 AM   #15
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can exercise knock you out of ketosis?
I think it really depends on whether or not one is fully keto adapted or not.
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:41 AM   #16
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Rubidoux ~ DH and I have one day a week where we 'workout' hard. We both have to 'prep' for this day be eating extra fat the day before and the day of. If we do not we BOTH feel super hungry, like we are starving to death.

I also wanted to let you know, what DH's endo said about cutting back too much on the insulin. It goes with what Trillex posted, and depending on what your basal for the day is, might be part of the problem too. DH is on an insulin pump, and he has finally worked out a temp basal for while he is exercising that keeps him from dropping too low, and also keeps his body from metabolizing his lean muscle mass for energy.

What the endo said, was that in a non diabetic, when you eat, your pancreas secretes insulin. Later then, when your blood sugar drops, and you blood insulin levels drop, your liver reacted to the lower blood insulin levels by secreting glycogen from it's stores. Which in turn is balanced out by a small insulin secretion from your pancreas, and so on.

So in a type 1, lets say you start with a decent bs of 100. With some basal insulin in your blood. Then during exercise, your insulin levels drop as your body uses insulin to transport the sugar in your blood to your muscles. So now your blood insulin levels have dropped. You eat low carb, so you don't have a large store of glycogen in your liver. so your liver, will release what it has, BUT it will also begin the process of using lean muscle mass as well. (which probably ties in with what Trillex was posting about).

As your liver releases the glycogen, your bs comes up. But without enough new insulin in your bloodstream, you can't use this energy and your liver keeps detecting that you have low blood insulin levels and KEEPS trying to secrete more glycogen.

DH has worked out a temp basal (as he does need less insulin while exercising) of about 4/9ths of what his usual basal is. He still takes a regular bolus just before if he bs is higher than his target. He also has about 1/2 - 1 oz of peanuts about an hour into it, to keep his bs from getting low.

BTW, I am still so super grateful to have just 'met' you here, as you are were the inspiration for DH going low carb and it has been really wonderful for his health!
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:52 AM   #17
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Hey Punkin, I believe what rubidoux is describing, and you are adding in on is called "bonking" by athletes, but can also happen with non athletes. Funny, but I was just reading about this last night in "The Art and science of Low carb living." Wish I had a photographic memory and could just write what those authors said, but you pretty much got right to it in short hand.

The authors of this book swear that you can take on higher intensity sports, w/out carbing up, such as say running, once you are totally adapted to fat burning. But I'm not sure this is true, via my own experience---which is highly mitigated I admit, by my age and the fact that I'm far from in good shape when it comes to physical exercise. It's hard to know where the LC woe comes in, vs. just being out of shape.

I am currently trying to add in "gentle" exercise, and by that I mean walking more often. Still, even that tires me out more than it would have on a higher carb woe. I don't think this means a LC woe is bad for exercise, I simply think it means that "adaptation" is serious business---takes time, tweaking, and growing into, all things individual to who we are and in what shape we were in when we started.

One thing I think is true---one cannot cut carbs, calories, AND exercise at high intensity and not feel "bonked", unless one has a super lucky metabolic system.
I was trying to figure out a way to stop the 'bonking' from happening. And I did. Fat bombs I eat a smallish one (about 2-3T size) I actually don't particularly care for them, but decided after making two largish batches at once, that I needed to eat them up. I finally ate them all, and the next week, exercise was a drag! I kept hitting the wall, and my legs got tired sooner. The last three days I have been fat bombing again, and hello endurance I still don't like any of the recipes I've tried, so I might just down a spoonful of CO and butter or something though

My exercise is my job, and I 'workout' for about 3 - 4 hours a day.It is mostly walking as fast as I can, except when I have a set of stairs, which I try to hit pretty hard to build muscle. I am sweating and breathing pretty good the whole time
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:11 AM   #18
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I lift fairly heavy 4 times a week, take an extra protein shake and creatine daily. Could this be slowing my weight loss? I only lost 4lbs in 16 days so far.
Creatine is a *weird* supplement with relation to a very low-carb diet. I hate that I'm *that person* on the forum who makes everything into a whole, big story... But there are honestly some complicated implications of creatine in the context of a ketogenic diet.

One of the ways that creatine works is by pumping additional water into muscle cells, by "osmotically" drawing water from around the cell into the cell. This additional hydration in muscle cells helps with protein synthesis and recovery after workouts, which is why creatine is such a useful supplement. And the restriction of dietary carbohydrates depletes muscle glycogen, which dramatically reduces the level of muscle tissue hydration, so anything that raises the level of water in muscle tissue while glycogen is depleted could help support protein synthesis because water is absolutely vital to the muscle repair process that happens in response to weight training.

But insulin is the delivery hormone that transports creatine into the muscle cell. So creatine is typically taken with some form of carbohydrates, especially sugars, which raise blood glucose levels in a way that spurs insulin release. While dietary carbohydrates are restricted, insulin release may not rise to sufficient levels to act as the anabolic transport agent that carries creatine into muscle cells. Insulin's role in fat storage gets talked about a lot but insulin isn't just about "fat storage," insulin's job is "nutrient transport" so it also feeds muscle tissue. Protein on its own raises insulin levels -- especially whey protein which is one of the most insulinogenic protein products -- but if the protein is taken with fat, then the insulin response is significantly lower.

Bodybuilders who are *superstitious* about creatine and can't train without taking it, take alpha lipoic acid with their creatine supplements while they're eating a ketogenic level of carbs. But most of the competitive bodybuilders that I know don't take creatine on their nutritionally ketogenic days. They'll take creatine during "cyclical ketogenic diets" (CKD) on their high-carb re-feed days because, according to Lyle McDonald's Ulimate Diet 2.0, creatine enhances muscle glycogen super-compensation. But competitive bodybuilders will usually just drop creatine altogether while they're on "cutting" diets because creatine doesn't just pack water into muscle cells, it also contributes to some forms of water retention that are undesirable in bodybuilding, and it takes a minimum of 30 days to get rid of the excess creatine and water so they'll use the "cutting" cycle to drop their creatine water retention.

All of this is to say that creatine may not be doing the job that you want it to do while you're taking it in the low-insulin-release environment of a ketogenic diet. And that creatine contributes to water retention that could cause you to show a lower rate of pound loss at the start of a ketogenic diet because you may not drop pounds of water as rapidly as most dieters who shed their glycogen stores at the start of a very low-carb diet.

Last edited by Trillex; 05-29-2013 at 10:18 AM.. Reason: grammar!
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:27 AM   #19
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I was trying to figure out a way to stop the 'bonking' from happening. And I did. Fat bombs I eat a smallish one (about 2-3T size) I actually don't particularly care for them, but decided after making two largish batches at once, that I needed to eat them up. I finally ate them all, and the next week, exercise was a drag! I kept hitting the wall, and my legs got tired sooner. The last three days I have been fat bombing again, and hello endurance I still don't like any of the recipes I've tried, so I might just down a spoonful of CO and butter or something though

My exercise is my job, and I 'workout' for about 3 - 4 hours a day.It is mostly walking as fast as I can, except when I have a set of stairs, which I try to hit pretty hard to build muscle. I am sweating and breathing pretty good the whole time
Wow, interesting, SweetMe. I feel the same way about fat bombs as you do, don't like them, too rich for me, but made a big batch and felt I had to finish them. In that process I learned they were good in a time pinch to stave off hunger, so pushed them down and used them for that. Now I've become a BPC convert, same function, but yummy tasting to me. So now I'll have to have a cup of that before I exercise. It will be interesting to see if it works for me. Thanks for the tip.
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:35 PM   #20
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Creatine is a *weird* supplement with relation to a very low-carb diet. I hate that I'm *that person* on the forum who makes everything into a whole, big story... But there are honestly some complicated implications of creatine in the context of a ketogenic diet.

One of the ways that creatine works is by pumping additional water into muscle cells, by "osmotically" drawing water from around the cell into the cell. This additional hydration in muscle cells helps with protein synthesis and recovery after workouts, which is why creatine is such a useful supplement. And the restriction of dietary carbohydrates depletes muscle glycogen, which dramatically reduces the level of muscle tissue hydration, so anything that raises the level of water in muscle tissue while glycogen is depleted could help support protein synthesis because water is absolutely vital to the muscle repair process that happens in response to weight training.

But insulin is the delivery hormone that transports creatine into the muscle cell. So creatine is typically taken with some form of carbohydrates, especially sugars, which raise blood glucose levels in a way that spurs insulin release. While dietary carbohydrates are restricted, insulin release may not rise to sufficient levels to act as the anabolic transport agent that carries creatine into muscle cells. Insulin's role in fat storage gets talked about a lot but insulin isn't just about "fat storage," insulin's job is "nutrient transport" so it also feeds muscle tissue. Protein on its own raises insulin levels -- especially whey protein which is one of the most insulinogenic protein products -- but if the protein is taken with fat, then the insulin response is significantly lower.

Bodybuilders who are *superstitious* about creatine and can't train without taking it, take alpha lipoic acid with their creatine supplements while they're eating a ketogenic level of carbs. But most of the competitive bodybuilders that I know don't take creatine on their nutritionally ketogenic days. They'll take creatine during "cyclical ketogenic diets" (CKD) on their high-carb re-feed days because, according to Lyle McDonald's Ulimate Diet 2.0, creatine enhances muscle glycogen super-compensation. But competitive bodybuilders will usually just drop creatine altogether while they're on "cutting" diets because creatine doesn't just pack water into muscle cells, it also contributes to some forms of water retention that are undesirable in bodybuilding, and it takes a minimum of 30 days to get rid of the excess creatine and water so they'll use the "cutting" cycle to drop their creatine water retention.

All of this is to say that creatine may not be doing the job that you want it to do while you're taking it in the low-insulin-release environment of a ketogenic diet. And that creatine contributes to water retention that could cause you to show a lower rate of pound loss at the start of a ketogenic diet because you may not drop pounds of water as rapidly as most dieters who shed their glycogen stores at the start of a very low-carb diet.
Wow, what a reply! Thanks trillex

So, drop the creatine?
Should I still weight train, I'm just afraid of losing my current mass, I know I can't gain and lose fat at the same time.
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:45 PM   #21
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I do intense cardio & weights 5 days per week. I started it 6 weeks before going low carb. I have not seen exercise kick me out of ketosis.

The only problem I had was bad cramps at the beginning because of water and electrolyte loss during induction while still exercising.
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Old 05-29-2013, 03:47 PM   #22
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Wow, what a reply! Thanks trillex

So, drop the creatine?
Should I still weight train, I'm just afraid of losing my current mass, I know I can't gain and lose fat at the same time.
For the record, I've been weight training with a professional bodybuilding coach since the first day I started Atkins, and I've been doing this for more than a year now while eating a ketogenic level of carbs and my training has been fantastic and I feel absolutely amazing!

More importantly, as Bianca pointed out earlier in this thread, Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek (who is actually a bodybuilder) have done research on obese male subjects who weight trained while on a ketogenic diet and their results showed dramatic improvements in body composition as a result of the weight training intervention alongside their ketogenic diet.

With regard to creatine, some guys absolutely WON'T give up creatine on training days when they're on ketogenic diets, EXCEPT to drop excess water in the very last month before contests. Some people just feel *stronger* with creatine and they swear by it.

I know guys that take a supplement called "alpha lipoic acid" (ALA) when they take creatine during low insulin diet cycles, because ALA (theoretically) interacts with the enzyme "AMP-activated protein kinase" (AMPK) in a way that supports the "partitioning" of nutrients into muscle tissue by sensitizing muscle cells to the effect of insulin. So (theoretically) even small rises in insulin will have a greater effect on transporting nutrients into muscle tissue, which would mean that rises in insulin will preferentially feed muscle tissue rather than fat storage.

But I can't *recommend* that approach because I've never personally done it and I haven't read any reports or anything that legitimately demonstrates that this regimen is actually helpful. There may be some reports out there that I just haven't read -- I'm not *really* a bodybuilder, I'm just their *mascot* so my knowledge is somewhat limited.

Another approach that some guys use is to just mix the creatine with straight whey -- no fat -- and use that relatively slight insulin rise to transport the creatine into muscle tissue during the immediate period after workouts when insulin sensitivity in muscle tissue is heightened. But this is another thing about which I haven't read anything that demonstrates it actually works to effectively transport the creatine.

I don't know what your current level of bodyfat is but if you're below 15%, then you should be able to *squeeze* your muscles after a creatine load and see if you get the increased "hardness" from water being pushed into muscle tissue. If you don't get that "hardness" then the creatine probably isn't doing what you need it to do and it may actually be causing water retention in tissues where you *don't* want water to be held. So your best bet might be to just give it a try, then give yourself the *squeeze* test, and see if you (as an individual) are getting the water where you need it to be. If you can increase muscle hydration during your workouts while you're on a ketogenic diet, then you're helping your body's process of muscle protein synthesis.

The trade-off of this increased muscle tissue hydration, in terms of scale weight, would be water retention. But if you're more interested in recomposing your body with more lean tissue and less bodyfat, rather than simply losing water "weight," then the creatine shouldn't hurt you and might actually help you achieve your fat loss goals.

I should also mention that there is a theory that creatine loading contributes to continued glycogen storage, and makes it more difficult to deplete muscle glycogen because the supplement "creatine monohydrate" contributes to larger tissue concentrations of "phosphocreatine," which is used to synthesize "adenosine triphosphate," which feeds into an anaerobic metabolic fuel cycle that replenishes muscle glycogen even in the absence of dietary carbohydrates. But I think the level of glycogen replenishment through this pathway is relatively low. And weight training, on its own, feeds into the same anaerobic metabolic fuel cycle that replenishes muscle glycogen whenever you work the muscles hard enough to get the lactate *burn*. But I figured I should at least mention it.

I wish you good luck with whatever you do! And congratulations on getting some good training in and recomposing your body!
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Old 05-29-2013, 04:17 PM   #23
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Basically, if you put an intense amount of physical stress on your body -- for example with an "insane" amount of Zumba -- that *could* cause an exaggerated release of cortisol, which would cause your body to either convert more dietary protein into glucose or even to break down your muscle tissue and convert your body protein into glucose. This happens because the physical stress has sent signals through your body to indicate that you need additional energy, which your hormonal systems interpret as the need for more glucose (especially if you are diabetic or have otherwise irregular blood sugar levels), and the body responds to these signals by releasing a flood of cortisol, which activates the process of breaking down protein and making more blood glucose.

I think this is my current problem. I've ratcheted up my workouts in prepping for my first tri. Typically i do to two or three a days; combination of 1500+ yard swims, 3-4 mile runs, 20+ mile bike rides, and weight training. I'm killing myself physically but the scale isn't moving.

I'm torn with either reducing the frequency of my workouts in the hopes the scale responds, or keep doing what I'm doing and force the change.
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Old 05-29-2013, 04:22 PM   #24
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Wow! This thread turned very interesting. I have been watching all day from my phone, thinking I'd give it all some thought and have time to reply when I got home... but now I only have a minute before we need to run out to karate. So... I may be missing some stuff I wanted to say, but I'll come back later.

Thank you, Trillex for the cortisol idea! I wonder if that is what happened. Whatever it was, it lasted a long time, like a week. Do you think that's possible? It normally does not take me long at all to get back to burning fat after I've had a cheat or something, but this may be all different.

Blue Skies, Sorry I was off base. I always assume that everyone is in better shape than I am. I don't think I know anything about your stats. For some reason I thought you were close to goal, though, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy for you to walk up a hill.

And sweetme, I'm happy it's working out for your hubby! I have been wondering how he was doing. I need to go back and study your post about why low insulin is a problem -- that's my main goal! -- other than losing weight and keeping my b/s down.
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Old 05-29-2013, 04:28 PM   #25
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I'm not *really* a bodybuilder, I'm just their *mascot* so my knowledge is somewhat limited.
I suspect that "mascot" means "person who goes out and reads all the scientific papers."
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:29 PM   #26
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Blue Skies, Sorry I was off base. I always assume that everyone is in better shape than I am. I don't think I know anything about your stats. For some reason I thought you were close to goal, though, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy for you to walk up a hill.
Not to worry a bit, no apology necessary. I have not made my stats public, so no reason why you should know exactly where I'm coming from. But no, I'm not close to goal, but I am 15 pounds closer to it. I have been doing LC for not quite 4 months, which means I've lost on average, about one pound a week---which represents about a fourth of what I want to lose. I'm tickled w/that. Been here before, done it in all kinds of ways, and am finally finding some patience in my life, at least w/my woe.

I have only recently begun to add in the gentlest of exercising, although the last time I lost this same 60 pounds I did it completely w/exercise---an hour a day, 6 times a week. Weights, cardio, kettlebell, kick box, HIT, dance, pilates, you name it, I did it. But that was 3 years ago, and I fell off that wagon, because I didn't love exercise enough to maintain it, and once I reached goal that way, I quickly discovered I did not want to do that amount of exercise to maintain.

So fade in fade out, I'm now really out of shape. While I don't love exercise, I do recognize its importance, and I do remember the good things about it. Hence my desire to add it in, in a gentler way that will work for me over the long haul.

In my exercise days of yore, I was very fueled by carbs, and I can't remember ever "bonking." And yes, I am finding that I can't push myself the way I did on carbs, w/out consequence, for where I'm at NOW. And it's hard to determine what portion of that is my being so out of shape, and what portion is my being older, and what portion is simply a matter of having to get used to exercising w/out the carb rush. It's all so darn individual, and I don't in any way believe vigorous exercise is not possible on a LC woe. I just think for me, it's going to take awhile to grow into. And I'm not pursuing it in the way I did before. It's a new page for me, gentler all around.
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:52 PM   #27
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You sound a creatine sceptic, trillex. I've only been using it for 2 months, but since then I've been able to push myself that little harder those last few reps, and my strength has increased faster than before. Maybe its placebo, but whatever it is, it appears to be working. But since lc, I've not been training to gain anyway, I'm not eating enough to, more training to garner whether I'm losing strength/mass whilst lc'ing, plus I love the gym and exercise is better than no exercise whatever you're doing.

I might continue as I am until next weigh in, then drop the creatine and whey for 2 weeks and see if losses are greater without. I'm happy to restart the training when I'm down to my goal weight.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:15 AM   #28
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Marking my spot to read this very interesting thread later!
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