Low Carb Friends  
Netrition.com - Tools - Reviews - Faces - Recipes - Home


Go Back   Low Carb Friends > Main Lowcarb Lobby
Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-23-2013, 01:17 PM   #1
Major LCF Poster!
 
rubidoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: san diego
Posts: 1,466
Gallery: rubidoux
Stats: 214/130/130 (5'2")
WOE: HF/MP/LC
Start Date: restart 9/2012
my own little n=1 re nutritional ketosis and blood lipids

This was completely unplanned, but it possibly could not have worked out better (except it would have been nice if I'd been fasting...). I went to the doctor to deal with a crappy ear infection issue (infection is gone, still can't hear out of that ear ), and she decided she want to run a bunch of completely unrelated tests, including a lipid panel and a1c and such. I normally am not keen on that sort of thing without fair warning, but I went ahead and did it. The thing was that the day before that had been my worst most out of control eating day since january. I ate carby **** all day tuesday and then had the blood drawn on wed morning. I am virtually certain that I was not in ketosis and not burning fat at that point. And you can really see the difference in my lipids.

The fist set was done in march, when I was in deep ketosis (and these are very similar to another set I had previously done also in deep ketosis):
LDL 134
HDL 40
triglycerides 84

Yesterdays:
LDL 96
HDL 48
triglycerides 131

I think probably the difference in triglycerides is bc I was not fasting this time. But I'm thinking that my LDL number got a lot better bc I am not in the process of liberating a ton of fat. The experiment will have a third phase -- my endo wants me to do the lipid panel again in july, so I'll have to make sure to be behaving myself -- and be solidly burning fat -- for those tests. I suppose I'll be happy if they turn out like either set of these, bc either my LDL has just mysteriously gotten better or it is bc of being in ketosis, in which case I don't care if it's high as it will be a temporary worthwhile bump up.
__________________
jayne, type I diabetic and mama to two sweet boys (9/03 and 2/09)

high fat, moderate protein, very low carb
once a day feeding
rubidoux is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old 05-23-2013, 01:56 PM   #2
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,850
Gallery: Blue Skies
Stats: 224/177/165 - 5'11"
WOE: LC my way
Start Date: Feb, 2013
Sounds like good news and good motivation, rubidoux.

Does being in Ketosis raise your LDL? Is it the process of fat burning that does this? Because I thought your LDL usually goes down w/weight loss. Of course then it gets into the good LDL and bad LDL, and it all confuses this gal.
Blue Skies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 02:27 PM   #3
Major LCF Poster!
 
rubidoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: san diego
Posts: 1,466
Gallery: rubidoux
Stats: 214/130/130 (5'2")
WOE: HF/MP/LC
Start Date: restart 9/2012
I know... it's really annoying how complicated it all is and how limited mainstream doctors seem to be about it all. My doctors seem to be only concerned about the LDL number and aren't concerned w why it's high (although I don't even think 134 is worth batting an eye over, they want me to be under 70 bc of my diabetes) or what kind of particles the number represents.

I'm not sure if being less fat might bring down LDL. But I do think that while you're losing, at least for some of us, it will go up. Mine was always well under 100 until I started very low carb eating. I asked my doc yesterday (and she's not the first doc I've asked) whether being in the process of losing would make my LDL higher and she (and the others, too) had no idea. She said it doesn't matter why it's high, if its high I need a statin. (At this point, w these numbers, there's no chance I'd actually take it.)

The thing that kills me is that this would not be difficult information to figure out. It's just that nobody cares. The docs just want to give you statins, and my guess is that the vast majority of patients don't think twice about taking them.
rubidoux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 02:52 PM   #4
Blabbermouth!!!
 
Ntombi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Boston, then OH, then NYC, now SoCal. Whew!
Posts: 38,380
Gallery: Ntombi
Stats: Restart: 360/284.4/190
WOE: Atkins for weight loss, NK for maintenance.
Start Date: Restarted: 1-3-13 Original: 8-23-02
Do you really think that being out of ketosis for one day really affected your lipids by more than a point or two? That seems drastic to me, but I don't know the answer.
Ntombi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 03:09 PM   #5
Major LCF Poster!
 
rubidoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: san diego
Posts: 1,466
Gallery: rubidoux
Stats: 214/130/130 (5'2")
WOE: HF/MP/LC
Start Date: restart 9/2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntombi View Post
Do you really think that being out of ketosis for one day really affected your lipids by more than a point or two? That seems drastic to me, but I don't know the answer.
I do think its possible! lol I'm not sure, obviously, but I wouldn't be surprised if that stuff was used up, absorbed, filtered out or something similar w/in any given 24 hour period. It would not surprise me at all to find out that any given particle of LDL circulating in my blood today would be used up and replaced by this time tomorrow. I also wouldn't be surprised if I was dead wrong about it, though. And it might be true that if it had been a few days that my LDL would have been even lower. Or not...
rubidoux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 03:56 PM   #6
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,850
Gallery: Blue Skies
Stats: 224/177/165 - 5'11"
WOE: LC my way
Start Date: Feb, 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubidoux View Post
I know... it's really annoying how complicated it all is and how limited mainstream doctors seem to be about it all. My doctors seem to be only concerned about the LDL number and aren't concerned w why it's high (although I don't even think 134 is worth batting an eye over, they want me to be under 70 bc of my diabetes) or what kind of particles the number represents.

I'm not sure if being less fat might bring down LDL. But I do think that while you're losing, at least for some of us, it will go up. Mine was always well under 100 until I started very low carb eating. I asked my doc yesterday (and she's not the first doc I've asked) whether being in the process of losing would make my LDL higher and she (and the others, too) had no idea. She said it doesn't matter why it's high, if its high I need a statin. (At this point, w these numbers, there's no chance I'd actually take it.)

The thing that kills me is that this would not be difficult information to figure out. It's just that nobody cares. The docs just want to give you statins, and my guess is that the vast majority of patients don't think twice about taking them.
As I understand it, it's not so much "why" it's higher, but "how" it's higher. Is it the bad LDL that is higher? Can you request a particle test? My brother who's a doc admits docs don't like to bother w/particle tests, and as you say, they'd just as soon slap you on statins whether you need them or not. This is very aggravating.
Blue Skies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 04:04 PM   #7
Junior LCF Member
 
kristenaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 51
Gallery: kristenaz
WOE: Low Carb
A CMP should only be conducted while fasting. When I worked in a lab we'd allow patients to do the test but always warned them that when the doctor saw they weren't fasting it was very likely they'd be sent back in to repeat the test. If you're concerned ask for another lab requisition and go in when you haven't had anything but water (some doctors say black coffee is fine too).
kristenaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2013, 06:05 PM   #8
Major LCF Poster!
 
rubidoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: san diego
Posts: 1,466
Gallery: rubidoux
Stats: 214/130/130 (5'2")
WOE: HF/MP/LC
Start Date: restart 9/2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Skies View Post
As I understand it, it's not so much "why" it's higher, but "how" it's higher. Is it the bad LDL that is higher? Can you request a particle test? My brother who's a doc admits docs don't like to bother w/particle tests, and as you say, they'd just as soon slap you on statins whether you need them or not. This is very aggravating.
Yes. I know *they* aren't concerned with *why* it's higher. But as far as I'm concerned, if its high bc I've got a whole messed up syndrome X kinda thing going on, that's bad. But if it's high bc I'm losing weight, well, I'm alright with that.

I have a feeling that nobody is gonna wanna help me do more in depth testing. But according to yesterday's results, even by their standards, I'm good. They do want my numbers even lower than for a normal person bc of my diabetes, but surely they'd admit that my numbers are fine. Even if they believed in the idea of good-LDL, I doubt they'd care given that the total is fine, kwim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kristenaz View Post
A CMP should only be conducted while fasting. When I worked in a lab we'd allow patients to do the test but always warned them that when the doctor saw they weren't fasting it was very likely they'd be sent back in to repeat the test. If you're concerned ask for another lab requisition and go in when you haven't had anything but water (some doctors say black coffee is fine too).
Is a CMP a whole lipid profile or just part of it? I emailed my doc yesterday and told him that I wasn't fasting and he said that it wouldn't effect the LDL or HDL numbers, but that my triglycerides might have been lower if I was fasting. He said that since everything was in range, it wasn't worth doing the test again, bc the results could only get better anyway. I wonder what he'd think if he knew that "not fasting" meant that all I'd had to eat so far that day was a giant coffee with a ton of hwc.
rubidoux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:22 AM   #9
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,755
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
I don't think LDL or HDL are particularly quick to change but rather do so over time and yes, it is possible that LDL will rise during weight loss. The triglycerides are far more reactive to sudden dietary changes. It is my understanding that those are the only measure in a standard lipid panel that are predictive of heart disease.
clackley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 03:59 PM   #10
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Maine
Posts: 210
Gallery: scintillady
Stats: 196/196/130
WOE: Atkins
Start Date: 4/7/14 (again)
There is no "good LDL" LDL is bad, HDL is good. Think of it this way - "L" for "Lethal", "H" for "healthy". The ratio is what is important. The higher your HDL is, the better, and the lower your LDL is, the better. Total cholesterol is never a good measure of risk. It needs to be broken down. Your total cholesterol can be high either by a high HDL or a high LDL. To find your cholesterol ratio, divide your total cholesterol number by your HDL number. For example, if your total cholesterol is 200 and your HDL is 50, your ratio would be 4:1. The American Heart Association recommends keeping the ratio below 5:1. So if my total cholesterol number was 250, which many doctors would consider high if they only had that to go by, but my HDL was 75, I would have a ratio of 3.3:1, which is a much better ratio than the person who has a total cholesterol of 200 and and HDL of 50. In fact the AHA considers 3.5 to 1 an optimal level. This is why those free cholesterol screenings they do sometimes, are not worth it because they usually just report the total. If your total cholesterol number is high, it doesn't tell you a thing about your risk unless you know your HDL level so you can calculate the ratio.
__________________
scintillady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 04:39 PM   #11
Senior LCF Member
 
NineOhNine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 369
Gallery: NineOhNine
Stats: 250/225/155
WOE: Generic <72 carbs/day
Nothing I've read suggests cholesterol levels mean much of anything. I'd pay some attention to triglyceride levels, which should be fine if you're low-carbing. Half of people who have heart attacks test above whatever cutoff they're using lately, half test below, IIRC. See any one of a number of books and blogs including Anthony Colpo, Uffe Ravnskov, etc.

Given the state of our health care system it might be difficult, but I'd try to find a better-informed doctor who's willing to work with you, rather than on you.

And I wouldn't pay a moment's attention to AHA pronouncements from on high, as they're still pushing whole grains and low fat along with cholesterol hysteria. JMO.
NineOhNine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 04:59 PM   #12
Major LCF Poster!
 
rubidoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: san diego
Posts: 1,466
Gallery: rubidoux
Stats: 214/130/130 (5'2")
WOE: HF/MP/LC
Start Date: restart 9/2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by scintillady View Post
There is no "good LDL" LDL is bad, HDL is good. Think of it this way - "L" for "Lethal", "H" for "healthy".
But this is not the whole story bc there is more than one kind of LDL particle, there are larger and smaller ones, and I can't remember which are the "good" and which are the "bad," but I do believe that you are much better off if you have one over the other. It may be that the good are not actually good, but just better. But at any rate I believe that the ones that I'm referring to as "good" are not to be feared, whereas the bad ones kinda are.
rubidoux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 05:04 PM   #13
Junior LCF Member
 
kristenaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 51
Gallery: kristenaz
WOE: Low Carb
Quote:
Is a CMP a whole lipid profile or just part of it? I emailed my doc yesterday and told him that I wasn't fasting and he said that it wouldn't effect the LDL or HDL numbers, but that my triglycerides might have been lower if I was fasting. He said that since everything was in range, it wasn't worth doing the test again, bc the results could only get better anyway. I wonder what he'd think if he knew that "not fasting" meant that all I'd had to eat so far that day was a giant coffee with a ton of hwc.
Yeah, the CMP (comprehensive metabolic panel) covers all of the lipids. Some doctors are more strict about the fasting rule (there's also the issue of insurance to consider).
kristenaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2013, 05:13 PM   #14
Major LCF Poster!
 
rubidoux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: san diego
Posts: 1,466
Gallery: rubidoux
Stats: 214/130/130 (5'2")
WOE: HF/MP/LC
Start Date: restart 9/2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by kristenaz View Post
Yeah, the CMP (comprehensive metabolic panel) covers all of the lipids. Some doctors are more strict about the fasting rule (there's also the issue of insurance to consider).
Ahhhh, thanks! I'm a little irritated that the lab techs didn't say anything about it. They asked if I was fasting and I said no loud and clear. It would have made sense if they had told me that there was a test that I was supposed to be fasting for ordered. The doc that I had seen that day ordered just the part of the lipid panel you don't need to be fasting for and we had talked about it. So it was a little irritating. But still, more info is always good...
rubidoux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2013, 03:59 AM   #15
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: OH/Involuntary Maint.
Posts: 1,138
Gallery: Mobear
Stats: 235/195/LESS
WOE: Bernstein
Start Date: 9/2010
Rubidoux from what I've read LDL particles can be either pattern A (large fluffy) or pattern B (small dense). The small dense pattern B ldl can penetrate the artery lining easier so it is more associated with heart disease. I think most doctor's just think in terms of ldl and don't normally test for particle size. There are a number of tests available to check the particle size - the only one I can think of at the moment is the VAP test. Jimmy Moore has some podcasts and information on his site about this and I think Mark's Daily Apple site also talks about the tests.
Mobear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2013, 05:22 AM   #16
Senior LCF member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,605
Gallery: Leo41
Stats: 340 then/145 now
WOE: Low carb/calorie cycling
I've had the VAP test, and my LDL was rated 100% Pattern A, the supposedly 'good' kind of large, fluffy particles.

However, both my endo and my cardiologist agree that NO type of LDL can be considered "good." The idea is to keep the number within range--and even lower for diabetics.

Fortunately, my HDL ranges from 95-110, and all my doctors are happy with that.
Leo41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2013, 11:01 PM   #17
Major LCF Poster!
 
Janknitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,303
Gallery: Janknitz
Stats: 254/184/150
WOE: Low Carb High Fat, Primal
Start Date: June 16, 2011
The Framingham study has shown that higher LDL levels in post menopausal women are protective. Women with lower LDL levels have higher rates of death from cancer and infectious diseases, among other things. So LDL number doesn't tell all. And state of the art LDL measurement is of particle number, not count (which isn't even measured, it's calculated and inaccurately so if your triglycerides are lower than 100--as they should be if you're reducing carbs).
Janknitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:51 PM.


Copyright ©1999-2014 Friends Forums LLC. All rights reserved. - Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
LowCarbFriends® is a registered mark of Friends Forums, LLC.