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Old 05-02-2013, 07:52 AM   #31
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:57 AM   #32
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So I want to ultimately lose 80 lbs...since I do have so much right now I should be fine focusing on my carbs? Also if it is about the calories then why do people that count carbs lose so much so much faster than people who just count calories? For instance Some people I have seen on this board lose 65 lbs in 5 months where I have never ever seen anyone that counts calories lose that much in that period of time!! I have seen this time and time again where carb counters lose ALOT more in a shorter period of time than calorie counters or programs like weight watchers!! Can someone explain why this is to me please??
I don't think that's true- what you get with low carb is that the initial losses are very big because a lot of that is water weight, but over time it evens out. Also, there are many here who started with a significant amount of weight to lose, so their losses will be very large compared to someone who doesn't have a lot to lose.

Yes, focus on carbs first- make sure you are correctly counting carbs and measuring foods and getting no more than 20 carbs at the start. Remember that things like sweeteners, cheese, cream do have carbs. Focus on eating until no longer hungry, and not until you are stuffed.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:15 AM   #33
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I agree. mom2jjl, when you are starting out, you are learning how to eat differently so you should probably just focus on getting your routine in place. Keep your carbs at 20 or less (it's okay if it's less--you shouldn't feel as if you "have to" try to get 20) and don't worry about calories and portions in the beginning. Try to get more of your carbs from salads and vegetables than other sources like condiments or dairy. Don't overeat your cheese, don't eat past the point of being pleasantly satisfied ("full"), don't eat things that aren't approved for Induction, and I am sure you will do fine. If I were you I'd use the first month to get an idea of how YOUR body responds to basic Induction. There is plenty of time to be adjusting calories/portions later if you need to do that.

Other people's losses might seem impressive, but please don't compare your losses to anyone else's. Your age, medical history, activity level, metabolism, and many other things will determine how YOU lose and at what rate.

Try not to have unrealistic expectations so you won't feel disappointed if you're not able to lose your 80 pounds as quickly as you thought you would. I've lost and kept off 70 pounds, and my losses tended to be about a pound or a pound and a half a week when I was heavier; even less, like 2 pounds a month or even less when I was between 140 and my current weight. My doctor has always said that he thinks a pound a week is great because slow and steady losses have a better chance of being sustained than quick losses.

When I started in Jan. '09, I had an idea of losing something like 10-12 pounds a month. I thought that seemed perfectly reasonable. Ha! That did NOT happen, and I needed to adjust my thinking and appreciate every pound instead of being impatient, because I did get here eventually.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:31 AM   #34
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Thank you Peanutte!! I'll do that very thing
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:32 AM   #35
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I think it is really a personal journey, and to find out what works for you, you have to do a lot of reading AND asking people about their personal experiences.

For example for me, calories matter more than the number of carbs. And I also have to closely manage my exercise to reach my goal. Right now I am choosing LC at this particular stage in my goal, probably based on my stats, my genetics, my lifestyle and where I want to be in the next year.

LC for me right now means I can eat less and be more satiated on less calories, however I still have to count calories because I can easily overeat on HF which will not help me reach my goal. The reason I say that counting carbs doesn't matter as much as counting calories for me right now is that I have noticed no difference between eating 15g/day and 45g/day from a statiation/overeating basis. But there are a lot of reasons why that is based on my lifestyle, genetics and stats. I need to eat under 1500cal a day to lose body fat and what gets me to be able to do that is what matters most. It turns out it isn't just counting carbs!
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:39 AM   #36
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Bump! Hope someone can answer this for me!
Have you read "Why We Get Fat" by Gary Taubes? I think it could explain the logic behind low carb better than I can...Basically some people's bodies use carbs to create fat so no matter how low cal they eat, the carbs are being converted into fat. When we eat a low carb diet, the body enters a fat burning mode and has no resources to make fat. So all the fat we have stored becomes fuel in the form of ketones and we burn it off.

This a really simplistic explanation. I highly recommend reading the book...
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:06 AM   #37
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Some people on a ketogenic diet don't ever have to count calories. Some do. But on ketogenic diets, the first thing to count is carbs. Don't bother to count calories unless you have to. No need to make things more difficult than you need to.

I've done Atkins off and on since 2002. I've never counted calories, and I've always lost weight. Now, for various reasons, I've never gotten down to goal, so maybe it will be necessary when I get within a few pounds of it, but in the past I lost over 80 lbs without having to. I followed the rules, ate only the allowed foods, no bars or shakes, ate until I was satisfied (not stuffed), and lost. I wasn't alone. It happens. This time around, I'm older, have more health issues, including being hypothyroid, and I'm still losing. More slowly than before, but I am losing. I'm not counting calories.

Don't borrow trouble, don't overeat, follow the rules of the plan, and keep moving forward.
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:13 AM   #38
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So I want to ultimately lose 80 lbs...since I do have so much right now I should be fine focusing on my carbs? Also if it is about the calories then why do people that count carbs lose so much so much faster than people who just count calories? For instance Some people I have seen on this board lose 65 lbs in 5 months where I have never ever seen anyone that counts calories lose that much in that period of time!! I have seen this time and time again where carb counters lose ALOT more in a shorter period of time than calorie counters or programs like weight watchers!! Can someone explain why this is to me please??
People who have lost 65 lbs in 5 month on LC may be eating lower calorie too, even if they only count carbs. Not everyone feels the effect of appetite suppression on a ketogenic diet, but many do and that leads to eating less overall.

I'm very skeptical of the idea that eating LC leads to faster fat loss once the initial water weight is gone. I suspect that folks who lose an impressive amount of weight in a short time stand out because they are the exception, and may have started out at a higher weight than most. People like me who lose at a rate of less than 1 lb per week are not as vocal, because it's just not that exciting.
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:56 AM   #39
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Awesome y'all! Thank you so much! You have all answered my questions! Pressing forward
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:28 PM   #40
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Glad you feel like you got something out of all the opinions and responses. I hope you do well!

Quote:
I suspect that folks who lose an impressive amount of weight in a short time stand out because they are the exception, and may have started out at a higher weight than most. People like me who lose at a rate of less than 1 lb per week are not as vocal, because it's just not that exciting.
Yeah but...in the long run it's pretty exciting to see all those one-pounds and half-pounds add up. There's a popular saying about how the time will pass anyway, so a year from now you will either be in the same place or you'll look back and be able to say holy smokes, look at how far I've come!
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:31 PM   #41
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The bottom line is that you can lose weight by counting calories alone. Not really a "scientific" example but this guy proved the point that you can lose weight by eating junk food all day, so long as you watch your calories. This guy is a professor of human nutrition:

Twinkie diet helps nutrition professor lose 27 pounds - CNN.com


HOWEVER, IMHO it is a MISERABLE existance. Counting every calorie... waiting in starvation for the next meal, or snack (that all it does is make you hungrier). Slowing your metabolism to a crawl.. feeling weak, grumpy, etc.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:36 PM   #42
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HOWEVER, IMHO it is a MISERABLE existance. Counting every calorie... waiting in starvation for the next meal, or snack (that all it does is make you hungrier). Slowing your metabolism to a crawl.. feeling weak, grumpy, etc.
That does sound miserable. I'm glad my calorie counting is nothing like that- 2 meals a day, happiness that I don't have to eat/snack all day long, and no hunger except right before meals. And, even after around 5 years my metabolism is still working fine because I have been maintaining at goal for years and am not weak or tired. After a while calorie counting becomes second nature and is super easy. For me, I'd rather spend time counting calories/portioning food than being depressed over being fat and trying on 10 outfits because nothing fits.

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Old 05-02-2013, 01:52 PM   #43
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Glad you feel like you got something out of all the opinions and responses. I hope you do well!



Yeah but...in the long run it's pretty exciting to see all those one-pounds and half-pounds add up. There's a popular saying about how the time will pass anyway, so a year from now you will either be in the same place or you'll look back and be able to say holy smokes, look at how far I've come!
Ain't that the truth! I'm coming up on my five year diet anniversary in October - I began trying to lose weight and have persisted for almost five years, and am still not to goal. Some of the issue was two pregnancies in the middle, some was maintaining for a bit when I just had no dieting oomph snd was struggling to stay on plan (it DOES get better, for me it was a few month cycle and then my brain re-engaged and eating OP became effortless again), and some was tweaking my plan and realizing not all were created equal and I do much better on LC.

So I've lost a lot of weight and kept it off. I only have six pounds left until I hit my prepregnancy weight and my daughter is almost six weeks old. I'm just shy of 100 pounds lost. That looks HUGELY impressive. But when I tell people there were some years I was down maybe ten pounds total by the end, and I've been doing this since 2008 and am just shy of my original goal, they look a bit more deflated.

And yet, does it matter that it took me half a decade? The weight is gone and hasn't come back, do I really care that it's been slow as molasses? Those years of slow losses and forced maintenance have still added up, and I'm still down about 90 pounds and not done yet. If speed had discouraged me I wouldn't be here now - I'd likely be heavier than when I began! But it DOES add up, one pound at a time
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:56 PM   #44
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Sings of success to me, Taryl.
You kept your eye on the prize for sure.

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Old 05-02-2013, 02:11 PM   #45
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Focus on carbs first. Diurnal induction, don't even think about calories. Eat until you are full. After the first few weeks, if you are losing fine (a short stall in the second week is very common), just keep worrying about the carbs. If you come to a long stall (2-3 weeks), then it's worth looking at more than the carbs, but there are a lot of variables to address: is it too much protein, too many calories, or a particular trigger food? Worry about that then, not now.

For now, keep it simple, and things will start working. As time goes on, you may need to tweak.

Finally, multiple studies have shown you can lose weight on any diet. The big advantage that low carb diets have, shown in studies, is the ability to keep it off.
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:27 PM   #46
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Two to three weeks is not a stall. Not even close.

I wouldn't change anything unless someone went at least six weeks with no weight or inches lost, and even then might be too soon, depending. A pause or plateau of two to three weeks when one has a lot to lose is completely normal.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:20 PM   #47
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Focus on carbs first. Diurnal induction, don't even think about calories. Eat until you are full. After the first few weeks, if you are losing fine (a short stall in the second week is very common), just keep worrying about the carbs. If you come to a long stall (2-3 weeks), then it's worth looking at more than the carbs, but there are a lot of variables to address: is it too much protein, too many calories, or a particular trigger food? Worry about that then, not now.
I don't disagree with this, but I would add:

If you are the kind of person who is not vehemently opposed to tracking your food, then there's nothing wrong with doing so. It's good information to have. I was plugging my food into an online tracker from day one. Even if I had only been interested in counting my carbs, this tracker automatically told me the numbers for not just my carbs but also my calories, fat grams, protein grams, fiber grams, as well as giving me nutritional information like how much of each vitamin and mineral my food was supplying.

So even if I didn't care about calories and other stuff, I would have still had a nice record of my consumption. That helped me learn more about what works best for me. It's useful. Tracking helped me learn to read labels carefully, and that in turn led me to eat more cleanly, so it was a very positive effect overall.

I will also say that weighing and measuring your food, rather than eyeballing, can really help a person learn about appropriate portions. You really cannot say that you're tracking accurately if you're not weighing and measuring.

I don't think there is any logic to treating calories and nutritional data as things that shouldn't be counted or tracked; it's just that Atkins said we didn't have to, because I'm sure he knew very well that most people don't want to.

For me, it's not much different from keeping up on my bank accounts online. I don't expect to just deposit whatever "feels" like enough, and then suddenly wonder what's going on with my checking account. I make sure I've been spending what I intended to, not more than I could afford to. If I found myself cutting it too close, or needing to plan ahead for a big expense, I would know that I needed to "tweak" my budget, but that is much easier to do when you're aware of your actual balance and not just guesstimating in your head.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:50 PM   #48
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Focus on carbs first. Diurnal induction, don't even think about calories. Eat until you are full. After the first few weeks, if you are losing fine (a short stall in the second week is very common), just keep worrying about the carbs. If you come to a long stall (2-3 weeks), then it's worth looking at more than the carbs, but there are a lot of variables to address: is it too much protein, too many calories, or a particular trigger food? Worry about that then, not now.

For now, keep it simple, and things will start working. As time goes on, you may need to tweak.

Finally, multiple studies have shown you can lose weight on any diet. The big advantage that low carb diets have, shown in studies, is the ability to keep it off.
I've read about several studies that compared low carb diets to low fat or calorie counting. About half the participants fell off their diet after 6 months, regardless of what plan they were on. I do think LC has a big advantage because it helps to control blood sugar and many of us feel better eating this way.

Comparison of Atkins, Ornish, WW, and Zone Diets

There's another study titled "Weight Loss with a Low-Carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or Low-Fat Diet" but I don't know if the site is safe to link to.
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:28 PM   #49
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I read so much about its all about calories in and calories out! Thats how to lose weight? Or will this really work???


Just give it a try, don't ask questions, just pick a LC woe, give it the 2 week induction period and judge for yourself, it's the only way to learn if its right for you. It doesn't have to be Atkin's but by far its the most popular one for the quickest weightloss. The more you procrastinate by asking the longer you'll see results! It doesn't matter what works for others just what works for you. Good luck!
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:26 PM   #50
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I've read about several studies that compared low carb diets to low fat or calorie counting. About half the participants fell off their diet after 6 months, regardless of what plan they were on. I do think LC has a big advantage because it helps to control blood sugar and many of us feel better eating this way.

Comparison of Atkins, Ornish, WW, and Zone Diets

There's another study titled "Weight Loss with a Low-Carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or Low-Fat Diet" but I don't know if the site is safe to link to.
Interesting study. Here's another one that showed women lost more weight on Atkins than some of the other plans, though overall losses were still low. Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and LEARN diets... [JAMA. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

I
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:28 PM   #51
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Interesting study. Here's another one that showed women lost more weight on Atkins than some of the other plans, though overall losses were still low. Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and LEARN diets... [JAMA. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

I
I've read that one of the problems with studies on various diets is that researchers have to average out the weight loss of all participants. I would be interested in seeing the individual breakdown and learning what people did differently to succeed or fail on the diet.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:29 PM   #52
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Ntombi is right. Read her posts -- memorize them.

Of course calories matter. You won't lose weight if you eat more calories than you expend.
And there are many ways in which the body expends calories.
BUT BUT BUT when you are starting out on Atkins, and especially if you have a lot of weight to lose, you don't need to count your calories. The answers to why are above.

As for people who lose weight and regain it, I have covered many many FDA meetings on all the anti-obesity drugs, and the doctors (who testify and who are on the panels) all say that -- yes -- it's true that most people regain the weight. It is a HARSH truth, but it is reality in 2013.

I am determined this last time to stay thin. I have to. I'll write more on this later this week over on the challenge I'm part of - Atkins Induction. But I'm just saying. Anyway -- worst case scenario. If you lose - say 10% of your body weight in a year on Atkins -- you probably have improved your health by much more than 10% and so - good for you. So, there are many silver linings to this way of eating. And there are folks here who keep the weight off for years and years (I did) almost effortlessly! (I'm convinced that some people are genetically prone to be overweight - and that it's a CHEMICAL, not a psychological thing for many of us. Of course, there are many of us who eat for emotional reasons. I am not one of those people. But I've been prone to being overweight all of my life.)

One note (as long as I'm here), in the Atkins Induction group, I posted an article the other day on a recent study published in NEJM at the end of January on some common weight loss myths. It's interesting reading.
The other note is that: exercise may make you healthier re: your heart, but it doesn't really have much to do with losing weight (unless you are a maniac and exercise long and hard enough to burn thousands of calories a day) and the other thing is that -- you don't need to drink all that water! really!

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Old 05-03-2013, 12:11 AM   #53
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The big advantage that low carb diets have, shown in studies, is the ability to keep it off.
Serious question: (I'm not challenging this statement) Could you direct me to the studies you're referring to? Because I've done a fairly broad amount of research during my time on Atkins and, from what I've read, the study results on low-carb dieting show an average recidivism rate. Like most diets, a 5% adherence rate at one year is typical.

In-clinic studies of low-carb diets have been conducted over fairly short periods of time, 8-12 weeks, which isn't long enough to address the issue of maintenance or even of sustained progress. And the long-term studies in which the subject diets are not controlled and directly monitored by researchers are, unfortunately, quite flawed because the adherence rate is extremely low, with most participants raising their carb level beyond the ketogenic range within the first few months (and often sooner).

For example, this long-term (6 month) study...
Comparison of high-fat and high-protein diets with a high-carbohydrate diet in insulin-resistant obese women.
Comparison of high-fat and high-protein diets w... [Diabetologia. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
...had a long-term follow-up via this study:
Long-term effects of popular dietary approaches on weight loss and features of insulin resistance.
Long-term effects of popular dietary appro... [Int J Obes (Lond). 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
But in reading the details in the report, the *negative* results among the high-fat diet subjects could be the result of the participants having raised their carb level well beyond the ketogenic level while continuing to eat a high-fat diet. Which I find quite disappointing because I find this field super interesting -- but the existing low-carb diet studies are either too short or not tightly controlled enough.

I'm interested in reading more! So I would genuinely appreciate your guidance and direction to any studies that I may have missed.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:52 AM   #54
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I always find it interesting how much confidence people put into research studies. Most studies if you look into the details you eventually will find they can be highly flawed. You should always model your own experiences based on what works and what doesn't, and use other people's personal experiences and research as more of what guides you to the process. As much as we like people like Taubes, we still have to consider his ideas with a grain of salt. I know I have to modify everything I read and hear to develop a strategy that works for me. Listening to others and reading research really helps, but you can't be vehement about what you read and hear.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:59 AM   #55
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Well, you can be, but I don't know that it gets the results people want. So I agree with you.
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:58 AM   #56
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I always find it interesting how much confidence people put into research studies. Most studies if you look into the details you eventually will find they can be highly flawed. You should always model your own experiences based on what works and what doesn't, and use other people's personal experiences and research as more of what guides you to the process. As much as we like people like Taubes, we still have to consider his ideas with a grain of salt. I know I have to modify everything I read and hear to develop a strategy that works for me. Listening to others and reading research really helps, but you can't be vehement about what you read and hear.
There's a long-standing practice in bodybuilding called "research reviews" or "literature reviews" in which nerdy bodybuilders or nerdy bodybuilding consultants read through the reports of medical research or comb through the data gathered from drug trials. Some bad bodybuilding practices have resulted from this, like the use of prescription drugs for off-label purposes. But good things have also come from this type of research review, like re-feed timing for CKDs.

Bodybuilders and their coaches don't read medical and scientific research in order to determine what works for each of them, as individuals. Bodybuilders read research looking for small details and discoveries that might not be widely publicized because there's no applicable benefit to the study subjects or to the general public, but that could be potentially useful in a bodybuilding context.

Successful competitive bodybuilding is based on experimentation and practical results, not on theory or clinical research. I've spent a lot of time with bodybuilders -- I've literally spent more of my life living with bodybuilders than not living with bodybuilders -- and I can confidently say that there aren't two competitive bodybuilders on this planet who take the exact same approach to nutrition and/or supplementation and/or training because they've all had different results from combining different practices under different circumstances. But the basic practices -- the approaches that they experiment with (especially with regard to nutrition and supplementation) -- often originate in mechanisms that someone somehow found buried in the details of some random research report.

I've been reading this stuff, since I've been on Atkins, just because I find it fascinating (and entertaining, in a weird way). But I've also learned a lot of cool things about the human body that I would never have otherwise been aware of because the body is a complicated machine that does most of its work without me being consciously aware of what's happening. So even though I don't read for the same reasons as a bodybuilder, now that I've spent some time working on my own body, I can completely understand why they read such crazy stuff.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:29 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Punkin View Post
I always find it interesting how much confidence people put into research studies. Most studies if you look into the details you eventually will find they can be highly flawed. You should always model your own experiences based on what works and what doesn't, and use other people's personal experiences and research as more of what guides you to the process. As much as we like people like Taubes, we still have to consider his ideas with a grain of salt. I know I have to modify everything I read and hear to develop a strategy that works for me. Listening to others and reading research really helps, but you can't be vehement about what you read and hear.
I agree. I don't really care what Taubes has to say on the subject of calories because none of it applies to me. Calories do count for me, a lot! Even on a low carb diet.

I judge everything diet related by its applicability in my life- Taubes' advice would leave me fat, so I don't follow it and don't consider him a guru or expert on the topic. My advice is- if you aren't losing, are stalled forever, whatever- do what works for you because it doesn't matter what someone said in a diet book if it doesn;t work for you and doesn't help you get to goal.

Last edited by nolcjunk; 05-03-2013 at 06:37 AM..
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:12 AM   #58
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Hey, DQ, what's your take on why we don't need all that water?
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:28 AM   #59
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Of course people should do what works for them, but well done research studies can help figure out what works for lots of people. That doesn't mean it WILL work for you, just that it has a higher probability of working.

Individual experience is valuable for individuals, but that doesn't mean everything extrapolates perfectly.

I'm highly allergic to raw fruits and veggies, therefore I can't eat things like salads. The fact that I'm allergic to them has nothing to do with anyone else, and it would be irresponsible of me to use my n=1 experience with salads (salads can kill!) when talking about good food choices for the vast majority of the population.

The reverse is also true. If 85% of test subjects in a well-designed study do well counting carbs and not consciously limiting calories, but 15% need to do both, that doesn't mean that everyone needs to count both from the get-go. It means that it's reasonable to tell people to limit carbs first, and then limit calories if necessary.
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:27 AM   #60
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That's my thinking in regards myself right now. Since I am still "early days" I am counting my carbs, fully aware that the day will come when I need to be more mindful of calories. Not that I am totally unmindful now, but I am focusing more on carbs. I will keep to this plan as long as my clothes continue to get looser and I feel good. I tend to be less hungry most days, so I am also eating less and that would seem to also help with continued weight loss. At some point I am prepared to reconsider and tweak my WOE.
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