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Old 04-30-2013, 07:30 AM   #31
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To affirm what nolcjunk reports, when I began JUDDD, I was worried about my DDs (which were 430 cal), and I e-mailed Dr. Michael Eades (because I had been following his advice to get sufficient protein with my low-carb eating). He advised me to make sure that all those calories were 'high-quality protein,' and I should be all right.

I followed his advice and have better muscle definition today than at any time in my life--despite doing JUDDD for 2 years to lose my last 100 lbs.

Calories are much, much less important than protein grams for preserving muscle mass.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:01 AM   #32
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I have never gone below 1000cal a day so I wouldn't know about being that low. I have basically just gone as low as 1000cal, with 90% fat, as per the instructions on the fat fast. I have not lost any muscle mass doing that.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bobbin View Post
Great thread, so much info!! This is why I always use my lowest weight as my "current" weigh in. Meaning, if I get on the scale one day and it says 204, and the next it says 209 - I have to assume as long as I'm faithful to my WOE my REAL weight is the lower one. May be bulloney, but I'm sticking to it!!

Yep! That's my method too. If I rebound for a few days it just means I am retaining a bit more water or something. We stand united!
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:26 PM   #34
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I looked up the cost of a DEXA scan in my area and it's $90 at the local university. I could not afford to do that more than once or twice a year.

Using a scale, tape measure, and clothing to measure fat loss may not be entirely accurate, but at least they give me a rough idea of the progress I'm making or the lack of it.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:19 PM   #35
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Thank you Trillex for the post on adipose tissue. After reading the abstract I think I have answers to something that happened to me in Aug 2012. The abstract said "metabolic effects of fat mass loss will occur that may mimic lipodystrophic diseases." In August I had lost 30 lbs on Atkins...more like Paleo diet. The doctors diagnosed me with something called Panniculitis (inflammation of the subcutaneous fat). I see that Panniculitis is listed for Lipodystrophy or Lipoatrophy. The inflammation started out as 1-2 cm bumps at the ankles. The pain and swelling spread and I was put on a steroid. My blood levels had to be checked to see that my white blood cell count was back to normal. This was over 2 month period before everything returned to normal. I always thought it might have been related to my weight loss. I am fine now, lost 5 more pounds. I will always continue this type of diet since I feel wonderful. I don't expect anymore problems with the Panniculitis.
I'm so glad the info was helpful! And I'm especially glad that you've recovered and are feeling better.

I am fascinated by the studies on bodyfat because we know a lot less about it than one would expect based on decades of research. In fact, adipocyte apoptosis and leptin are both fairly recent discoveries. Leptin was "encountered" in animal studies in the 1950s but researchers didn't/couldn't apply the information to human studies until the mid-1990s, partly because it was initially discovered in genetically abnormal rats. Beta-3 adrenoceptors -- which are so fundamental to bodyfat reduction -- weren't discovered until the 1980s.

I wonder how many mechanisms are operating inside us that researchers have no clue exist.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:46 AM   #36
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Thanks again Trillex. That abstract and what I found on subject told me more than the doctors. I was told there was no known cause...meaning, idiopathic lobular panniculitis. I was so amazed to see that Panniculitis is listed under acquired lipodystrophy. I won't ever know for sure. Maybe I added another piece to the puzzle.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:42 AM   #37
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The advantage of a DEXA scan is that it tells you exactly how many lbs of fat you have on you and how many lbs of lean (fat free) mass you have.
This sounds like something I would want but when I researched 'dexa scan' all I found was reference to it being for bone density. Am I missing something?
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:22 AM   #38
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This sounds like something I would want but when I researched 'dexa scan' all I found was reference to it being for bone density. Am I missing something?
You're right, Avid. That is the *purpose* of DEXA technology, to measure bone density. That's what the lasers actually do when the scans are done. But DEXA's bone density measurements *also* allow the system to provide a fairly accurate analysis of total body composition.

Elite bodybuilding coaches use MRIs to assess body composition -- because that's the most accurate technology we currently have to determine body composition -- even though that's not specifically the *purpose* of the technology. MRIs are really helpful for bodybuilding coaches because they can look millimeter-by-millimeter at body cross sections to identify exactly what they're working with and decide what needs to be done.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:41 AM   #39
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This sounds like something I would want but when I researched 'dexa scan' all I found was reference to it being for bone density. Am I missing something?
my understanding: it was initially used by radiologist to measure bone density; they are looking for early detection of osteoporosis and risk for developing fractures. also radiology clinics don't have the education/training/software necessary to do the complete body composition ie mineral (bones)/fat-free soft tissue (lean mass)/fat tissue mass ratios so they won't advertise that capability of the scan.

if you are looking to get the DEXA scan done for body fat % try asking at your local gym or perhaps check at the medical or sport faculty of your university.

i may get one done when i'm much closer to my goal. for me it's too expensive so i'll just have to stick to the "good" ole scale and tape measure for now.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:00 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by bettycooker View Post
Thanks again Trillex. That abstract and what I found on subject told me more than the doctors. I was told there was no known cause...meaning, idiopathic lobular panniculitis. I was so amazed to see that Panniculitis is listed under acquired lipodystrophy. I won't ever know for sure. Maybe I added another piece to the puzzle.
You might also be interested in checking out this overview:
Adipose tissue remodeling and obesity
JCI - Adipose tissue remodeling and obesity
This paper discusses some of the complications that can occur as part of the body's process of adjusting to changes in adipose tissue composition. The paper doesn't specifically address panniculitis. But adipose tissue inflammation -- like panniculitis -- and fat cell hypoxia and lipotoxic side effects are potentially related to systemic crises that occur within the smaller systems that support the health and operations of adipose tissue.

Modern humans (in the developed world) have a very contentious relationship with bodyfat but fat cells are important components of our overall health -- they need to be fed and they need to breathe, like our other cells.
Recent studies consistently support a hypoxia response in the adipose tissue in obese animals. The observations have led to formation of an exciting concept, adipose tissue hypoxia (ATH), in the understanding of major disorders associated with obesity. ATH may provide cellular mechanisms for chronic inflammation, macrophage infiltration, adiponectin reduction, leptin elevation, adipocyte death, ER stress and mitochondrial dysfunction in white adipose tissue in obesity. The concept suggests that inhibition of adipogenesis and triglyceride synthesis by hypoxia may be a new mechanism for elevated free fatty acids in the circulation in obesity. ATH may represent a unified cellular mechanism for variety of metabolic disorders, and insulin resistance in patients with metabolic syndrome. It suggests a new mechanism of pathogenesis of insulin resistance and inflammation in obstructive sleep apnea. ...

Inflammation occurs in adipose tissue in obesity, and has a broad impact on glucose, lipids, and energy metabolism (1–5). Several signaling pathways have been proposed to explain the pathogenesis of obesity-associated inflammation, such as activation of toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4) by fatty acids (6–8), activation of Protein kinase C (PKC) or JNK (c-JUN n-terminal kinase) by fatty acid derivatives (diaglyceride or Ceramide) (9–13), induction of ER (endoplasmic reticulum) stress (14, 15) or increased activities of reactive oxidative species (ROS) (16, 17), and activation of macrophages by adipocyte death (18, 19). Although these theories are able to explain some aspects of inflammation and metabolic disorders in obesity, the linkage between obesity and these factors remains to be identified. It is not clear why free fatty acid (FFA), ER stress, ROS and adipocyte death are increased in obesity. Additionally, there is no unified theory for the metabolic and endocrinological dysfunctions of the white adipose tissue under obesity. Recent reports suggest that hypoxia is a new potential risk factor for the chronic inflammation in obesity (20, 21). The emerging role of adipose tissue hypoxia (ATH) suggests new insights into the mechanisms of pathogenesis of metabolic syndrome.

Emerging Role of Adipose Tissue Hypoxia in Obesity and Insulin Resistance
Emerging Role of Adipose Tissue Hypoxia in Obesity and Insulin Resistance
When something interferes with healthy operations within fatty tissue, systemic problems can result. The human body is usually quite efficient at addressing problems but, when something goes wrong, current medical technology is not always able to address the causes because we still have a fairly limited understanding of the full scope of the mechanics of adipose tissue in the human body.
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Old 05-10-2013, 02:30 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Trillex View Post
I'm so glad the info was helpful! And I'm especially glad that you've recovered and are feeling better.

I am fascinated by the studies on bodyfat because we know a lot less about it than one would expect based on decades of research. In fact, adipocyte apoptosis and leptin are both fairly recent discoveries. Leptin was "encountered" in animal studies in the 1950s but researchers didn't/couldn't apply the information to human studies until the mid-1990s, partly because it was initially discovered in genetically abnormal rats. Beta-3 adrenoceptors -- which are so fundamental to bodyfat reduction -- weren't discovered until the 1980s.

I wonder how many mechanisms are operating inside us that researchers have no clue exist.


Completely AMAZING info Trillex! Thanks so much for the detailed info and links! I am still digesting it all...but seriously right now I am so your biggest fan...I read one paltry article on Tonalin CLA on assisting apoptosis. Seems so far to be a myth...any thoughts or reading on this?
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Old 05-11-2013, 04:53 AM   #42
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Where I live there any many places that do DEXAs for medical purposes. ie. assessing bone density and you have a medical referral to go there. They do not use DEXA for assessing body composition. However, there is one clinic that is open to the public for DEXAs and they use the scan for body composition, but you pay $100 for the scan. They will do bone density and they do give an assessment for that, but it is mainly used for body composition. I use DEXA because my body fat composition is very uneven and I am trying to train for competing in a figure competition. In my case I need more specific information as to specifically how many lbs of fat I have on me and where it is located. One main reason this is important is because when you are trying to change your body composition, there is very little visual difference every six months. For example in photos the change between 13% and 7% is almost unnoticeable. Also when you get closer to goal, you can lose more lean mass than fat mass. For example I just had a DEXA scan done a little over a week ago and I lost twice as much lean mass as I did fat mass. It is another reason why I can't use the scale anymore. If I assumed my weight loss was all fat I would have been wrong.

Having said that though, unless you are close to goal and want to shift your body composition I don't think it is all that necessary to spend the money. There is only one case where I might argue that and that is the case of the person who has a small frame. People with small frames can carry a lot more body fat than people with larger frames. For example my original goal was set too high. I had a DEXA scan done and found out I was still carrying a lot of body fat that I wasn't aware of. That is another way it can be useful.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:13 AM   #43
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There is only one case where I might argue that and that is the case of the person who has a small frame. People with small frames can carry a lot more body fat than people with larger frames. For example my original goal was set too high. I had a DEXA scan done and found out I was still carrying a lot of body fat that I wasn't aware of.
this is very true. I have a small frame. the charts tell me that my current weight is 'normal', but the mirror tells a different story. True, I'm not what anyone would call fat, but I see a paunch right below my navel, and excess fat elsewhere as well. There is one bmi calculator that imho is the most accurate. I recently dropped another couple of pounds and I'm listed in the 'desirable' bmi range, but it puts me right at the edge between 'desirable' and 'overweight' which I think is accurate. It shows that I could lose 10 pounds and still be in the desirable range.
I don't think I'll get a dexa scan. I'm not competing in anything so it's not really necessary.
I go by how I look, how I feel, how my clothes fit and yes, the scale.
I'm setting a new aggressive goal for myself, but it will be the final goal.
One wants to be careful about not being obsessed with this stuff.
My history tells me that I could easily fall into that trap.
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:00 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by onedimsim View Post

Completely AMAZING info Trillex! Thanks so much for the detailed info and links! I am still digesting it all...but seriously right now I am so your biggest fan...I read one paltry article on Tonalin CLA on assisting apoptosis. Seems so far to be a myth...any thoughts or reading on this?
Wow, thank you! I'm so excited that someone else is also interested in this stuff. I think the human body is so fascinating.

I've read a bit about CLA, but I haven't read enough to feel as if I really *know* what CLA supplementation can/would/should do for humans. It seems quite clear that CLA supplementation can have a dramatic effect on body recomposition in mammals, including fat cell depletion and apoptosis. But the studies that most clearly establish this were done on smaller mammals, and I always wonder how those effects actually translate to humans because mice are so tiny that it's easy for researchers to give them massive doses that a human wouldn't be able to reasonably manage.

I think this is a good research overview of CLA:
Conjugated linoleic acids (CLAs) and white adipose tissue: how both in vitro and in vivo studies tell the story of a relationship.
Conjugated linoleic acids (CLAs) and whit... [Histol Histopathol. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
The full text of the review is available online, and I think it's a well-organized and fairly comprehensive article on what we know about CLA from both a theoretical and clinical perspective. I actually thought it was super interesting and kind of a pleasure to read.
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