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SchoolPsych1979 04-17-2013 11:57 AM

Why do cheese and dairy stall people?
 
I am wondering why cheese and other types of dairy (HWC, cream cheese) stalls people? Is it because of the calories? I'm not being facetious, just a real question? I am trying to revamp my menus, and I don't want to give these up and I am wondering if and why these make people stall? :dunno:

rubidoux 04-17-2013 12:00 PM

Do they make you stall? They don't make me stall. I have HWC every day and cheese most days.

nolcjunk 04-17-2013 12:01 PM

Several reasons-

- the hormones in dairy
- being intolerant/allergic to dairy
- not counting carbs - a lot of people count hard cheese as 0, and it can add up.
- very high in calories- an ounce of cheese does not look like a lot but it has around 100 calories. very easy to overdo it when you are using hwc in coffee, cheese in your eggs, cheese in your salad, and a cheesy casserole for dinner.

There is a reason that Atkins induction limits cheese to 4oz of hard cheese a day and about 3tbs of hwc( i think, I dont use hwc so not 100 percent sure).

SchoolPsych1979 04-17-2013 12:04 PM

Does it me stall? I am not losing fast as I was a couple years ago. I am trying to find the culprit of why the loss is slower this time. I don't eat veggies so I'm not getting a lot of carbs from there. My average carb intake is about 15 with HWC, cheese, cream cheese, etc

rubidoux 04-17-2013 12:10 PM

I am losing much slower than I was the last time I lost this same dumb weight. lol But I was using HWC and eating cheese both times. I doubt it is that. I actually decreased my HWC and cheese by quite a lot and that made no change in my rate of loss. It could be that I would lose faster without it, but I'm not willing to go there. I'd not be eating almost anything if I did that.

Melle's_Sweetheart 04-17-2013 12:13 PM

Quote:

There is a reason that Atkins induction limits cheese to 4oz of hard cheese a day and about 3tbs of hwc( i think, I dont use hwc so not 100 percent sure).
This wasn't changed until DANDR, in response to the low fat dieting movement. There were no restrictions on dairy in the 1972 version of the book because low fat eating wasn't popular then.

I eat 1/4 c. of 5% cream and about 2 oz of cheese every day and I've lost 47 lbs since October.

I think YMMV---try eating the dairy in small portions and see if it affects your weight loss.

Jannybunny 04-17-2013 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolcjunk (Post 16379065)
Several reasons-

- the hormones in dairy
- being intolerant/allergic to dairy
- not counting carbs - a lot of people count hard cheese as 0, and it can add up.
- very high in calories- an ounce of cheese does not look like a lot but it has around 100 calories. very easy to overdo it when you are using hwc in coffee, cheese in your eggs, cheese in your salad, and a cheesy casserole for dinner.

There is a reason that Atkins induction limits cheese to 4oz of hard cheese a day and about 3tbs of hwc( i think, I dont use hwc so not 100 percent sure).

:goodpost:

nolcjunk 04-17-2013 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melle's_Sweetheart (Post 16379091)
This wasn't changed until DANDR, in response to the low fat dieting movement. There were no restrictions on dairy in the 1972 version of the book because low fat eating wasn't popular then.

.

That makes no sense to me because he didnt limit any other source of fat- butter, bacon grease, olive oil, etc. He only limited dairy. And, the low fat crowd wouldn't be happy with any high fat cheese or the other unlimited fats.

I think he saw that people were eating too much dairy and having problems, something that he did not anticipate, and he changed it to reflect that.

ravenrose 04-17-2013 01:24 PM

I think it's because on a true, strict induction diet, cheese is the most natural "snack food." people don't generally mindlessly eat something like chicken, you know?

Strawberry 04-17-2013 01:31 PM

Quote:

There were no restrictions on dairy in the 1972 version of the book because low fat eating wasn't popular then
I dont have a '72 atkins book... .but I seem to remember cream actually being severely limited to only four teaspoons (not tablespoons) in the original. And then that was later upped to three Tablespoons in later versions.

(Perhaps someone with the 72 book can double check this)

nolcjunk 04-17-2013 01:34 PM

I found the 1972 details online and it includes a limit on dairy (4oz) and cream is only 4 teaspoons like Strawberry points out/




Cheese: Four ounces of any hard, aged cheese per day. NO cream cheese or cheese spreads.

Heavy Cream: Four teaspoons a day of heavy cream. NO milk.

Melle's_Sweetheart 04-17-2013 01:38 PM

Quote:

I think he saw that people were eating too much dairy and having problems, something that he did not anticipate, and he changed it to reflect that.
You have a good point!

If I recall correctly, Dr. Atkins mentioned somewhere (not his book, although I could be wrong) that one of his patients were eating A POUND OF BUTTER a DAY topped with sweetener and not losing weight. He promptly told the person that although fat is good, that was too much and as soon as the patient omitted it, she/he started losing.

Mind you, a pound of butter a day is much more than any reasonable person would eat.

I still think it's a YMMV, thing.

ETA:

I think you may have found some frankenstein version of DANDR online because the 1972 version suggests that you eat cottage cheese and cheesecake after induction.

I'm at work so I can't check my facts---can you post the link where you found that info about the 4 ounces of cheese?

SchoolPsych1979 04-17-2013 02:11 PM

Thanks for all your input! I guess my thinking is, if I am not eating veggies (so that is about 12-15 carbs I am NOT EATING), why would dairy stall or make weight loss slower? I would only think that Dr. Atkins would limit the dairy if you were eating veggies bc of the grams of carbs. (I don't like veggies, or care for them so I don't eat them regularly and I don't think they're that important).
Maybe I am just being complicated and confusing myself! LOL :confused:

moonmirror 04-17-2013 02:18 PM

When I switched to paleo for a bit last year, my main switch was no dairy: I lost nearly a pound a day, that was with no alcohol or nuts either, I did eat a piece of fresh fruit daily every afternoon.

I think its calories. My oldest daughter is 16; she's been genetically overweight her whole life until just this year. She went lowcarb, then started working out, and flirts with paleo here and there. She went from a size 15 juniors to a size 5. She is 5'9, she was about 190 and she's now 150 pounds but with lots of muscle.

Anyway: my daughter (who is kind of a natural analyst) believes dairy is the real culprit in lowcarb stalls due to the calorie content. She says she can literally double her bacon additions and still not come close to the calories cheese can add.

Strawberry 04-17-2013 02:19 PM

Quote:

I think you may have found some frankenstein version of DANDR online because the 1972 version suggests that you eat cottage cheese and cheesecake after induction.


Melle's Sweetheart - yes, that was AFTER Induction (key words there!). The initial rules on cream were during Induction... Soft cheeses and additional cream were part of one of the rungs of the carb ladder and you added them in after induction.

Strawberry 04-17-2013 02:22 PM

Quote:

if I am not eating veggies (so that is about 12-15 carbs I am NOT EATING), why would dairy stall or make weight loss slower?
I think as long as you arent eating enormous quanities of calories from cream or cheese... that you would be fine to have more.

Atkins designed his plan so that people could tailor it to their own metabolic needs and personal taste preferences. So your best answer would be to try and see if removing dairy or adding dairy seems to affect your personal weight loss. Some people find it does, others find no effect. And I dont think we have any scientific study that clearly says one way or the other.

jmc305 04-17-2013 02:40 PM

Here is something that confuses me:

Milk is frowned upon. 2% milk (or really any milk) is about 12 grams of carbs per cup.
A cup is 16 tablespoons.

Heavy whipping cream is lauded for it's low carb goodness. Most packages "say" it's 0 carbs, but we know there are some "hidden" carbs and some brands (Land O Lakes I think) put it as 1 carb per tablespoon on their labels. So a cup of HWC would be about 16 grams....4 more than the dastardly 2% milk.

Why is it that milk is a no-no but HWC is used all the time? :confused:Is it because cream is soooo rich, you wouldn't likely sit down to a whole 8oz glass of it? I am confused about this. Usually if I'm making cheese sauce, I go easy on the cream and use almond milk to make up the difference.

I love my Blue Diamond unsweetened vanilla almond milk, so I don't grieve for the loss of my 2% or skim milk that I used to drink religiously. I'm just curious/confused more than anything. :dunno:

nolcjunk 04-17-2013 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melle's_Sweetheart (Post 16379267)
Y

ETA:

I think you may have found some frankenstein version of DANDR online because the 1972 version suggests that you eat cottage cheese and cheesecake after induction.

I'm at work so I can't check my facts---can you post the link where you found that info about the 4 ounces of cheese?

I can't post the link because of the site that it is listed on.

That 4 oz of hard cheese, 4 tsp cream limit is just for induction (which he says can be done up to 6 months). He mentions cheesecake/cottage cheese for the second level.

Leo41 04-17-2013 02:48 PM

We also should keep in mind that the lactose in dairy is SUGAR, so that dairy carbs are very different from vegetable carbs.

When I gave up all dairy, my blood glucose went down, and my endo said it was because I'd eliminated a source of sugar (I'm not diabetic, but it's in my family, so I am regularly checked).

Blue Skies 04-17-2013 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmc305 (Post 16379387)
Here is something that confuses me:

Milk is frowned upon. 2% milk (or really any milk) is about 12 grams of carbs per cup.
A cup is 16 tablespoons.

Heavy whipping cream is lauded for it's low carb goodness. Most packages "say" it's 0 carbs, but we know there are some "hidden" carbs and some brands (Land O Lakes I think) put it as 1 carb per tablespoon on their labels. So a cup of HWC would be about 16 grams....4 more than the dastardly 2% milk.

Why is it that milk is a no-no but HWC is used all the time? :confused:Is it because cream is soooo rich, you wouldn't likely sit down to a whole 8oz glass of it? I am confused about this. Usually if I'm making cheese sauce, I go easy on the cream and use almond milk to make up the difference.

I love my Blue Diamond unsweetened vanilla almond milk, so I don't grieve for the loss of my 2% or skim milk that I used to drink religiously. I'm just curious/confused more than anything. :dunno:

According to this site, (lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/whattoeat/a/dairycarbs.htm)
there is about 6 carbs in a FULL CUP of cream. I can't think of anything I use a full cup in, and certainly not per serving. I use a quarter of a cup in my cream sodas and a couple splashes in various sauces, and rarely on the same day.

Milk OTOH, has around 11 carbs a cup, Whole to 1%, doesn't make much difference. If you like milk, it would be easy to drink this plus. 2 or 3 glasses of milk a day and you're looking at 22 to 33 carbs. No way could most drink even close to this much cream or have any desire to.

For me, I'm in it for the long haul, hopefully, and I know I'm not going to live forever on meat, eggs and butter. Stalls are part of EVERY weight loss effort, no how good you've been about what you eat, on whatever plan.

Not saying that for some, cream is an issue. But I am saying that if you cut things out willy nilly every time you meet up with a stall you're going to be living on very few foods. And for most, that's not going to work long term.

tinamanni 04-17-2013 04:15 PM

Without having any resources except my own experience - too much dairy messes with my digestion. Which then makes me stall because things aren't working correctly. I think that with dairy so many more people are intolerant than we realize

giJ 04-17-2013 04:33 PM

Dairy slows down my weight loss dramatically. So I limit it.

It's not just the calories, because I was tracking everything anyway. It's something about how my body processes dairy.

Of course it's a YMMV thing, but when someone is stuck for no apparent reason, cutting dairy is one of my thoughts.

Melle's_Sweetheart 04-18-2013 05:07 AM

Geez.

You have me all thinking that I should start limiting my cheese.

I think I'll stop having my 1 oz of cheese with lunch and see if it makes a difference with my weight loss.

I'm willing to accept it if I'm wrong!

Punkin 04-18-2013 05:35 AM

Dairy does not stall me, but I am careful with how much I use per day because it has carbs in it. I also count calories. I use cream because it is low in carbs and fairly high in fat so it is better for a LC diet than milk. I also don't use yoghurt for the same reasons, if a recipe calls for yoghurt I will switch it with full fat sour cream. And the only cheese I use is hard cheese, and I rarely snack on it. I limit my servings of cheese to 1-2 ounces at a time because they also have carbs in them. For example if you are making a salad and you have 200g lettuce plus 1-2 ounces of grated cheese you are already at 7 carbs roughly. It doesn't leave much room for anything else. Even if you add a hard boiled egg, eggs also have trace carbs and so do commercial dressings. You can easily turn what you think is a low carb meal into a higher carb meal! That is why dairy can be dangerous.

avid 04-18-2013 06:20 AM

I too have to be mindful of the amount of dairy I take in.
HWC goes in every cup of coffe and I have about 4 cups a day. Nothing is going to change this.
but I love cheese and sour cream...I can restrict these to a certain extent and if I feel that I have been at the same weight too long and really need to take it up a notch, it's the cheese I limit, usually with good results.
Alas, I know I would probably be better off without cheese,
but it's such a simple pleasure :love:

avid 04-18-2013 07:13 AM

:goodpost:
This is an excellent question and one I haven't given much thought too.
I'm not really very calorie conscious. I believe, and I base this on the research I have done with Taubes and others, that all calories are NOT created equal.
For example, there are days when i will eat alot of meat and have no weight gain the next day, even though meat is high calorie.
Yet, too much cheese will throw me off.
So my belief, and I say belief because it's based on nothing other than my 'hunch' is that the calories in dairy are more prone to fat production than say the calories in beef.
I have no idea if this is true or not, but based on my personal experience it seems true for me.
I would love to hear from the science types on this matter.

nera 04-18-2013 07:26 AM

Tinamanni - I agree 100%

fiddlejen 04-18-2013 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avid (Post 16380514)
This is an excellent question and one I haven't given much thought too.
I'm not really very calorie conscious. I believe, and I base this on the research I have done with Taubes and others, that all calories are NOT created equal.
For example, there are days when i will eat alot of meat and have no weight gain the next day, even though meat is high calorie.
Yet, too much cheese will throw me off.
So my belief, and I say belief because it's based on nothing other than my 'hunch' is that the calories in dairy are more prone to fat production than say the calories in beef.
I have no idea if this is true or not, but based on my personal experience it seems true for me.
I would love to hear from the science types on this matter.

Just recently I was watching a Michael Mosley show on PBS. There was a segment where some cheesemaker spent a week (or however long it was) eating a carefully measured & controlled "normal" but dairy-free diet, and then the same period of time eating an equivalent dairy-full diet, with exactly same amount of calories & fat. However, in the second diet, all the fat came from dairy products. At the end of each time period, **** samples were sent off to some laboratory, to test how much fat had been excreted. (I believe this is basically a less-scientific but more-telegenic version of a study that was done a number of years ago, with similar results.)

The lab result was that, with the same amount of calorie & fat consumption, on a higher-dairy diet a higher amount of Fat was excreted by the body.

This result seems to imply that a person would lose more weight on a high-dairy diet. And, maybe they would, on a low-fat, carb-burning diet.

However, the whole point of a Low-carb diet is to get one's body to burn Fat more effectively. The fat should not just be excreted. It should be Converted to ketones and used to run the body's functions. So these results make me wonder if Dairy Fat may not be converted to a usable form as effectively as other kinds of fats.

And IF so -- if our bodies (at least some of us) convert fat from Dairy into burnable ketones Less efficiently than from other sources -- that might explain why dairy causes some of us to stall.

.

jenericstewart 04-18-2013 08:41 AM

dairy doesn't stall me, either, but i'm not lactose intolerant and i always count the carbs and calories

what i don't get is how sugar free diet pop and chewing gum certainly do. now that makes even less sense to me.

Mrs S 04-18-2013 09:03 AM

Thankfully I don't have issues with dairy or cheese because I eat a LOT of it. I do find that I can have a high nut day or a high cheese day without gaining but not both in the same day, regardless of calories or carbs consumed.


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