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Old 04-03-2013, 05:11 AM   #31
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clarification:
Carbs means Carbohydrates. Carbs doesn't necessarily mean fruits vegetables and grains even though these are the most common source of carbohydrates. There are carbs in seafood and organ meats as well.

Carbs means simple and complex sugars. Pretty much the only place carbs are not found is in fats.

There are plenty of fruits and vegetables that are high in vitamins but not high in carbs. And there are plenty of sources of vitamins and minerals that are not plant based and therefore not a fruit, veg or grain.

Rabbit starvation is a problem of not enough FAT consumption, not a lack of carbs necessarily. if a person were eating rabbits as their only meat but had a source of fat, there would not be a problem.

Scurvy is a problem of vitamin C lack. Animal Liver contains vitamin C. Animal muscle tissue contains very little, so in a society that focuses on meat and shuns offal, it can be easy to overlook this animal, non vegative source of vitamin C. Of course one small lemon has scads more vitamin C, but the point is CARBS is not the only source of vitamins like C which are highly associated with the citrus group.

A well balance diet can have almost all the necessary vitamins, minerals and fiber without being high in simple sugars and starches.

Carbs are not necessary for survival, but good sources of vitamins and minerals, that can be gotten from many sources besides carbs, are.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:25 AM   #32
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This has to be the best response I have seen to the whole 'essential carbs' issue.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:04 PM   #33
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You can also moderate your carb intake by making smart choices in which non animal carbs you choose to eat if you do.
e.g. One kiwifruit=2 oranges when it comes to available vitamin C.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:17 PM   #34
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One small red, yellow or orange bell pepper (about 4g net carbs) gives you more vitamin C than 4 small oranges, and it's low-carb acceptable on most plans
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:17 PM   #35
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You can also moderate your carb intake by making smart choices in which non animal carbs you choose to eat if you do.
e.g. One kiwifruit=2 oranges when it comes to available vitamin C.
I love Kiwi!!! I'm only partial to oranges, and then just clementines really. Meh.

I forgot to mention that the liver contains vitamin C but you can't over cook it. I think that's why so many pate's and such are so gently cooked. Besides that liver tastes better lightly cooked than overcooked anyway.

This past summer I tried eating liver raw. It wasn't bad ... after I got used to it. I marinated it with sea salt, and toasted sesame oil and it was really kinda good. It tastes better at room temperature or just warm better than straight from the fridge, though.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:20 PM   #36
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There are some cultures that have evolved to exist mainly on fat and protein such as Innuits but most of us do genuinely need a vast array of vitamins to be healthy.
This isn't really a matter of evolution. Many explorers who traveled among the Inuit adopted their diet for years on end. One even agreed to be observed by medical experts for a year when he came home, so they could see that he could live healthily on meat and fish. Vilhjalmur Stefansson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Inuit need the same vitamins as everybody else. However, you can get almost all the nutrients you need from animal sources. Vitamin C is kind of an exception; however, high levels of dietary carbohydrate lead you to absorb less Vitamin C, so if you cut down on carbs, you don't need as much C.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:23 PM   #37
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I just looked it up.for the top ten:

Hot peppers like jalapenos win,then in order:
guavas,
bell peppers,
fresh herbs,
dark leafy greens like kale,
broccoli and cauli,
kiwis,
papayas,
finally oranges
and last ,strawberries.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:47 PM   #38
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however, high levels of dietary carbohydrate lead you to absorb less Vitamin C,
I Did Not Know This! Wow.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:35 PM   #39
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Hi Guys,

I was sitting at the salon today flipping through the many magazines.. All the health magazines(you know the ones,with skinny celebrities on them).. Any way every one had an article some where in there that stated Atkins was a fad diet and didn't work in the long run...WTH. Now I understand why I can't tell anyone that I am doing LCD WOE without getting a hard time...Grrrr
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:32 PM   #40
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But my dad is a *healthy* vegan. He is extremely careful about keeping his nutrition balanced and keeping his calorie level high enough to support his metabolism. During the winter, for example, his diet is almost ketogenic, fed mostly by nuts, seeds, and oils. During the summer, he mostly eats raw but he juices fruits and veg to make sure he gets sufficient calorie density, adds brown rice protein powder to make sure he gets sufficient protein, and supplements with a vegan oil blend of essential fatty acids. My dad has notebooks of tables of his daily nutrition going back decades, in which he has written the weights and measures of everything he eats to make sure his nutrition is sufficient to support his life and activity level.

My dad is involved with some (often super annoying) vegan activist groups, so he meets a lot of young vegans and he kind of gossips to us in the family about how badly most young vegans eat. A lot of them eat nothing but sprouted-bean pancakes or organic udon noodles with tomato sauce -- zero essential nutrients.

Plus, being vegan isn't the same thing as being low-fat. I've gone to a lot of vegan events with my dad and the buffet is always DRIPPING with grease! Vegans eat nut butters and overly-oily hummus like there's no tomorrow.

I personally find Colin Campbell insufferably irritating. But he makes as good an epidemiological argument for the health benefits of vegan diets as the major low-carb researchers make for ketogenic diets. I think it comes down to your personal constitution, your personal preferences, and the type of dietary choices that you make within whichever nutritional plan you choose. I think it's probably easier to be an unhealthy, unbalanced vegan than to be unbalanced on a ketogenic diet because meat and vegetables have higher calories and more concentrated nutrients. But my dad's cohort of old hippies haven't eaten animal products for decades and they're doing hot yoga every day and their doctors freakin' love their health profiles.
That's actually a good point. One of my cousins is vegan because she is opposed to using animal products and she only eats pasta and grains and she is SUPER unhealthy and now diabetic at the age of 24. My vegan cyclist friend seems to eat lots of salads with oils and a ton of nut butters and nuts, she doesn't load up on carbs at all, which I didn't really notice at first. When I first started LC I was a vegetarian and I am still probably mostly vegetarian, although I eat eggs several days a week and I eat dairy every day, couldn't go without it. I have often wondered if dairy is more harmful than good and I've read conflicting things. I eat lots of nuts all day long and love big salads with nuts and cheese. I could seriously go without meat and I only eat it because it is filling and seems like a good idea. I eat more fish than other animals. I should be vegan, damnit! Except I do love the occasional cheeseburger without the bun. I guess there can be a balance? I mean, just because you claim to be vegan, a cheeseburger once in a while isn't going to cause a bolt of lightning to strike you in the head!
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:35 PM   #41
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Honestly, Kiwi, I respect my dad's detail-oriented adherence to his beliefs but I just cannot relate to it. He doesn't *enjoy* food the way other people enjoy food. According to my grandmother, my dad has never cared about the taste of food and has always just grudgingly eaten only because he has to eat to survive. My brothers are the same way. They're both bodybuilders and they eat just to achieve certain physical goals, with no appreciation for food being an enjoyable thing for most people. When my brothers are doing one of their mega-bulking diets where they have to eat specific nutrient percentages a bunch of times each day, they'll just mix protein powder with fish oil into a paste and eat it for most meals because it's fast. Ugh! They honestly don't care what it tastes like, as long as it fits the nutrient profile that they're supposed to be eating at that meal. It's so weird to me! My aging dad is stronger and healthier than I have ever been in my entire life and my brothers haven't been over 10% bodyfat in their entire adult lives. But neither lifestyle seems like it's worth the effort, to me. I can happily live without bread or sugar but I couldn't be happy without enjoying the food I'm eating. We all have different priorities, I guess.
That is simply not fair. I have the opposite genetics! I love food and the taste of food. Food has to taste good or else why bother eat it?!
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:41 PM   #42
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Scurvy is a problem of vitamin C lack. Animal Liver contains vitamin C. Animal muscle tissue contains very little, so in a society that focuses on meat and shuns offal, it can be easy to overlook this animal, non vegative source of vitamin C. Of course one small lemon has scads more vitamin C, but the point is CARBS is not the only source of vitamins like C which are highly associated with the citrus group.

A well balance diet can have almost all the necessary vitamins, minerals and fiber without being high in simple sugars and starches.

Carbs are not necessary for survival, but good sources of vitamins and minerals, that can be gotten from many sources besides carbs, are.
Yep. Interesting studies come to mind--for example, the one about early settlers whose ship crashed in.. Nova Scotia ? and they had a "survivalist" type guide who was a local and several dozen people lived off of nothing but bear fat for months and not a one of them developed scurvy, which was the most fascinating thing for the scientists at the time who studied this case. They had no idea how these early settlers from Europe did not get scurvy. It was because they were not eating carbohydrates and were able to absorb more nutrients and antioxidants from the meat and fat they were eating, plus, their livers were functioning better. The first month was brutal, however, and they described to a 'T" the process of ketoadaptation and how awful they felt during the ketoadaptation process. I can't remember the name of the study or the expedition, but I think it's mentioned by Phinney and Volek, the Eades, and possibly Taubes?
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:09 PM   #43
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ooh can anyone find more detail or a link to an article?That sounds fascinating!
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:12 PM   #44
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OP: Now all I have to do is memorize this so I can repeat it to someone next time they accuse me of starving myself of carbs :P

But seriously, thanks for the info! Hopefully there will come the day the FDA will acknowledge these advancements in science and give us a better food pyramid. (Or food plate... but their food plate is basically just the food pyramid resliced.)

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Old 04-03-2013, 04:24 PM   #45
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One thing to keep in mind, is that the body does not "need" carbs to run.... but if you take in zero carbs, it will generate glucose in order to maintain a normal blood sugar level (your brain likes having a normal blood sugar level, you faint if its not, even though it can use ketones as well. The heart also uses a TON of glucose, even though it uses more fatty acids).

So in order to keep a normal blood glucose level, your body (liver mainly) will produce glucose - it mainly uses amino acids - esp alanine and glutamine. If you arent eating them, it will break down muscle tissue to get them. (look up the "alanine cycle"). It also uses lactate (look up "lactate cycle"). The body *can* use fatty acids to make glucose, but its not the preferred source. The body mainly uses substrates from muscle (bread down of muscle tissue or byproducts of metabolism = lactate) and carries them off to the liver to make new glucose.

Body builders often will eat some carbs as a way to "spare" muscle tissue from being broken down to fuel their heavy workouts.

(my double major in college was molecular biology and biochemisty)

Last edited by Strawberry; 04-03-2013 at 04:29 PM..
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:51 PM   #46
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Trillex,
I am really enjoying your posts! That anecdote about your vegan dad was fascinating...my father too went vegan recently (dr neal barnard's diet) for his diabetes and lost 50 pounds, was able to go off medication. Again, like you said: it was strict adherence to Barnard's plan, no "winging it."

I feel the way you do: I know I feel better, more vigorous and the weight literally drops off me when I do paleo with no dairy: But tonights dinner was chicken browned in butter with garlic, then simmered in cream. Need I say more?
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:19 PM   #47
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That's actually a good point. One of my cousins is vegan because she is opposed to using animal products and she only eats pasta and grains and she is SUPER unhealthy and now diabetic at the age of 24. My vegan cyclist friend seems to eat lots of salads with oils and a ton of nut butters and nuts, she doesn't load up on carbs at all, which I didn't really notice at first. When I first started LC I was a vegetarian and I am still probably mostly vegetarian, although I eat eggs several days a week and I eat dairy every day, couldn't go without it. I have often wondered if dairy is more harmful than good and I've read conflicting things. I eat lots of nuts all day long and love big salads with nuts and cheese. I could seriously go without meat and I only eat it because it is filling and seems like a good idea. I eat more fish than other animals. I should be vegan, damnit! Except I do love the occasional cheeseburger without the bun. I guess there can be a balance? I mean, just because you claim to be vegan, a cheeseburger once in a while isn't going to cause a bolt of lightning to strike you in the head!
I know just what you mean. My daughter, who has lost about 50 pounds on lowcarb, said "mom I think you have trouble sticking to this because you will never like meat as much as I do." Sometimes I really want meat, but eating it daily is difficult for me.

So my daughter LOVES meat, I was happiest as a vegetarian. Reading this thread has got me thinking too...I don't do well with dairy, but I do keep chickens and they lay me gorgeous eggs; I'd be happy on vegetables, eggs, nuts and the occasional fruit.

And then once in a while, when I'm craving it, a steak!
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:12 AM   #48
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Great thread!
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:48 AM   #49
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My goal is
Whether or no, that was a great clarification metqa.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:55 AM   #50
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One small red, yellow or orange bell pepper (about 4g net carbs) gives you more vitamin C than 4 small oranges, and it's low-carb acceptable on most plans
Wow, I went and checked it out.
and 100g of raw red sweet pepper give you 213% of the DV for Vitamin C
and 100g of raw orange gives you only 89% of the DV for Vitamin C.

My friends looked at me crazy when I told them I like to eat red peppers like apples, but I guess I'm getting a lot of vitamin C for it, more than the lemons I keep buying and forgetting to use.

So the next time my friend says he needs orange juice for Vitamin C, I can suggest he eat a bellpepper instead. That's Hilarious!
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:49 AM   #51
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I know just what you mean. My daughter, who has lost about 50 pounds on lowcarb, said "mom I think you have trouble sticking to this because you will never like meat as much as I do." Sometimes I really want meat, but eating it daily is difficult for me.

So my daughter LOVES meat, I was happiest as a vegetarian. Reading this thread has got me thinking too...I don't do well with dairy, but I do keep chickens and they lay me gorgeous eggs; I'd be happy on vegetables, eggs, nuts and the occasional fruit.

And then once in a while, when I'm craving it, a steak!
From what I've observed from living with an embarrassingly large number of bodybuilders, it's really common for bodybuilders who are definitely omnivores to spend long periods of time eating like vegetarians (except on their "free" days). They'll eat eggs and yogurt and whey and casein, but they'll have maybe only one meal per day that contains the non-dairy (or non-egg) product of an animal and, many days, they'll actually have only the dairy (and egg) products of animals. Basically, there are a lot of different ways to achieve a particular macronutrient balance. I enjoy meat and I can eat tons of it. But some people find other ways to manage their protein needs. I think it's probably harder to do without dairy because whey, for example, is such an easy to use and comprehensive protein source.

It's not that bodybuilders try to avoid meat, ever. I think this quasi-vegetarian situation happens mostly because eggs and dairy (like whey or casein protein supplements) are really easy protein components to manipulate when a dieter is trying to eat a super specific balance of macronutrients every day for a sustained period of time. For example, you can easily add more egg whites than yolks to get a higher protein to fat ratio, or you can add more yolks if you're trying to eat higher fat to protein. Or you can add yogurt or cottage cheese to omelet batter to increase the carb to protein to fat ratio. If you know that you have to eat a certain ratio of protein to carbs to fat at every meal for 8 or 12 or 16 consecutive weeks, meat is just a more work-intensive component to manage because different types (or cuts) of meat have dramatically different protein to fat ratios. If you're dealing with a cut of beef, for example, you can't weigh the fat portion separately to see exactly how much fat to protein you're eating so the steak you're eating this week could have a very different ratio than the steak you ate last week.

Even when bodybuilders do ketogenic "cutting" diets and want more fat, they won't necessarily turn to meat as their primary source for most meals. Dan John is a high school teacher and coach and bodybuilder and he publishes articles on bodybuilding and he's just generally very busy. I've read an article where John says he'll cook a protein meal and then drink olive oil with the meal because this allows him to precisely control the amount of fat he's getting with the protein at that meal. He's not trying to avoid fat, he's just looking for a systematic way to control his ratios without devoting a ton of time to meal preparation.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:54 AM   #52
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I've read an article where John says he'll cook a protein meal and then drink olive oil with the meal because this allows him to precisely control the amount of fat he's getting with the protein at that meal. He's not trying to avoid fat, he's just looking for a systematic way to control his ratios without devoting a ton of time to meal preparation.
God bless John. I feel better about drinking my grass fed butter now
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:59 PM   #53
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But he makes as good an epidemiological argument for the health benefits of vegan diets as the major low-carb researchers make for ketogenic diets.
Without getting into the vegan discussion, if you see anybody making causal conclusions from an epidemiological study, you can generally be certain they are wrong. Epidemiological studies are good at generating hypotheses, but they are useless at proving anything, because there are way too many variables.

I saw a study today that said that men who are stronger live longer. This conclusion came from picking a bunch of men and seeing who was stronger and who died. Never mind that maybe the stronger ones also exercised more, and it was really the exercise (regardless of strength) that made them live longer. Or maybe the weaker ones all smoked. Or... (I'm sure they controlled for something like smoking, but the point is the variables are far too many to control for.)

Anyway, I'll stop ranting now.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:15 PM   #54
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Without getting into the vegan discussion, if you see anybody making causal conclusions from an epidemiological study, you can generally be certain they are wrong. Epidemiological studies are good at generating hypotheses, but they are useless at proving anything, because there are way too many variables.

I saw a study today that said that men who are stronger live longer. This conclusion came from picking a bunch of men and seeing who was stronger and who died. Never mind that maybe the stronger ones also exercised more, and it was really the exercise (regardless of strength) that made them live longer. Or maybe the weaker ones all smoked. Or... (I'm sure they controlled for something like smoking, but the point is the variables are far too many to control for.)

Anyway, I'll stop ranting now.
I agree. That's kind of my general beef with Campbell. I hate when he uses his particular field of research as a position of *advocacy*. I love reading his research because it's brilliant and fascinating and I think he has a type of insight that has allowed him to make truly fruitful comparisons between different populations, which reveal things that less thorough or less insightful researchers would have missed. Like comparing genetically similar, fairly culturally isolated populations that eat different proportions of the same basic foods is genuinely illuminating, to me, and I find it absorbing.

My problem with Campbell as an *advocate* is that he argues as if his research has established conclusions that it doesn't actually address. Like every other life-extension advocate I'm aware of, Campbell believes that the high quantity of processed foods in the western diet is dangerous, produces negative health outcomes, and has a measurably negative impact on the human lifespan. But Campbell is not an expert on processed foods. And as an advocate, Campbell doesn't make a distinction between the highly processed, factory nature of contemporary, mass-produced animal products and naturally-farmed animal products that don't undergo the standard hormonal and mass processing manipulations. He makes this distinction when he talks about plant foods, but Campbell's advocacy against animal products is without any caveats that address the processing of the modern meat management system. His actual research is better than that, though, and makes detailed distinctions between how each of the forms of food each population is managed and the correlating health outcomes.

I wouldn't say that Campbell makes casual conclusions -- I think he's too sly to get caught doing that -- but his *advocacy* is, in my opinion, more political than research-driven. And this is why he bugs me. I think Campbell believes that there isn't a realistically achievable way to mass produce animal products to feed large populations so he feels justified in making advocacy arguments that factor in the worst possible composition of animal products versus plant products -- it's like he's comparing a Big Mac to an organic ratatouille and saying that the ratatouille will have a more positive health impact on the human body. It's not a casual conclusion in the sense that he can compare the nutritional composition of the two meals and reasonably argue that one meal contains essential nutrients that the human body needs and that the body will, under normal circumstances, integrate those nutrients in a health-supporting way, and that the other meal contains insufficient essential nutrients for human health along with elements that are foreign to the human digestive system and that the Big Mac meal can be reasonably established to produce more negative health outcomes than the organic ratatouille. In my opinion, that type of argument is not based on his research, it's a political argument that addresses the cultural and commercial system of western food production -- and he's not an expert on western food production.

I also think he allows his followers to push extreme positions that his research doesn't address. Campbell is clever enough to qualify what he says so that he doesn't *exactly* say that his research can or should be applied to western society. He equivocates in a way that says "if things were completely different, we would be nutritionally better served..." But he's careful to say that, according to his studies, he has seen other populations get more positive health outcomes from eating a particular diet. He's not an expert on the western diet so he's very careful to speak in terms of *other* populations, but he allows his followers to speak as if Campbell has expert insight into the western diet.

Campbell has done amazingly detailed research on the minute dietary and health differences between an enormous number of cultural, regional, and ethnic populations in China. I socialize with a lot of vegans and raw foodies and I understand how important this work is to them -- they can see in detail, over time, comparative health outcomes distinguished by a variety of alterations in nutritional composition. It provides some very valuable information that they can apply to their experience in eating a plant-based diet. Because it's not a broad epidemiological survey, it's detailed in a way that is legitimately helpful to people who choose to live a particular lifestyle. At its most basic level, it introduces young, western vegans to alternative protein sources of which they might not otherwise be aware.

My problem is when his school of followers, actually more so than Campbell himself, try to use his work as a position to advocate for the universal adoption of their chosen lifestyle, and to condemn people who don't make the same choices. I'm fine with people not eating steak, for example, because they believe it will eventually kill them -- I'm not eating sugars or starches because I believe they will eventually kill me -- but I have a problem when people extrapolate their health choices to populations that are not affected by their particular dietary concerns. There's just no evidence -- from Campbell or anyone else -- that establishes a single, optimal diet for the entire human population. Like you said, there are just too many variables.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:12 PM   #55
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Ooops! Sorry, I got so carried away with my personal annoyance with Dr T Colin Campbell that I forgot to say the main thing that I meant to address.

Despite my personal dislike of Campbell as a vegan icon, I think his work is important for all people who choose to not eat a mainstream western diet because he uses detailed, long-term, non-intervention studies to establish that there are many varied nutritional approaches that have an established cultural and historical record of positively supporting human health and longevity. Vegans get told all the time that their diets are going to kill them. I've read many very sad stories of people here on the forum who have friends and relatives tell them that eating fat is going to kill them -- posters in this thread have said that people tell them they "need" more dietary carbs to be healthy. As a low-carb dieter, I have read the studies that show improvements in all of the major health markers when clinical subjects were fed significant quantities of fat and protein in the context of low dietary carbohydrate intake. That has been established across several well-structured clinical studies.

Ultimately, I find Campbell's most valuable cultural contribution to be his research-based argument that you can't listen to the haters because they don't know what they're talking about. As a researcher (but not as an advocate), he's telling people to ignore assumptions and look at the established research. Campbell is generally preaching to the vegan choir but I think it's applicable to anyone who goes against the dietary mainstream.
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:27 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by atomickate View Post
I'm studying for my test right now and finding what you mean about fat not being directly converted to glucose and I have a bit of an answer. I will get back to you when I'm not swamped!
How Goes Your Studies? Have you had your test yet? How did you do?
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:44 AM   #57
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What a great read this morning!
I need to go over it again and take notes.
I am not sure about the Innuits, but I think some idigenous people living in harsh cold climates, did/or do add berries to their diet when they are available.
Any anthropologists among us? I am not suggesting that they cannot survive without carbs, but that they might chose to add some assuming they were available.

My daughter is a vegan chef and you are right about the really tasty foods being high fat.
Wonderful rich sauces.
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Old 04-14-2013, 05:20 AM   #58
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I remember reading that there were turf vegetation that was available seasonally. Grasses, fibrous roots, seaweed, berries, stems, etc.
Weston Price said

Quote:
"The food of these Eskimos in their native state includes caribou, ground nuts which are gathered by mice and stored in caches, kelp which is gathered in season and stored for winter use, berries including cranberries which are preserved by freezing, blossoms of flowers preserved in seal oil, sorrel grass preserved in seal oil, and quantities of frozen fish
So they weren't totally vegetable free, but the vast majority of their food was meat and fat as it was available and they survive because it is highly nutritive and sufficient for the metabolism to keep them warm and active.

From Wikipedia, it says
Quote:
Traditional Inuit diets derive, at most, 35-40% of their calories from protein, with 50-75% of calories preferably coming from fat. This high fat content provides valuable energy and prevents protein poisoning, which historically was sometimes a problem in late winter when game animals grew lean through winter starvation.
The thing that prevented them from getting horrible sick was the high fat content, not the very miniscule amount of berries, nuts, seaweed and grasses they ate. They drank the blood of seals to replace vitamins and minerals they lacked, and they often eat meat and fish raw, and the offal, the stuff we find "disgusting" is eaten first with the blood while it's warm to give the maximum effect of transfer of body warmth from the dead animal to the hunter. No point in wasting that heat when it is vital to survival. Brains, liver, intestines, all that stuff is considered valuable and eaten first by hunters, and then the meat is shared out.

Inuits who follow this style of diet avoid cancer, heart disease, prostate cancer, cardiovascular disease, arthritis, diabetes, athsma and other diseases of chronic inflammation. Their diets are high in Omega-3, almost a 1:1 ratio compared to the almost 1:20-25 ratios of 3:6 we have because of our consumption of "vegetable" oils in favor of animal fat. This gives us all sorts of inflammation based diseases.

As far as vitamins, From an article called The Inuit Paradox:

Quote:
Seal meat, especially blubber, are also very high in vitamins E, A, D and selenium. Recently, researchers have concluded that these inherent antioxidants are big reasons why Inuits are free of cardiovascular disease, while other mostly-fish-eating populations are still prone to this disease. Fish oils alone will not do the same as seal oil.

But vitamin A, which is oil soluble, is also plentiful in the oils of cold-water fishes and sea mammals, as well as in the animals’ livers, where fat is processed. These dietary staples also provide vitamin D, another oil-soluble vitamin needed for bones.

As for vitamin C, the source in the Eskimo diet was long a mystery. If we don’t ingest enough of it, we fall apart from scurvy, a gruesome connective-tissue disease. However, Arctic peoples living on fresh fish and meat were free of the disease. Native foods easily supply those 10 milligrams of scurvy prevention, especially when organ meats-preferably raw-are on the menu. For a study published with Kuhnlein in 2002, Fediuk compared the vitamin C content of 100-gram (3.55-ounce) samples of foods eaten by Inuit women living in the Canadian Arctic: Raw caribou liver supplied almost 24 milligrams, seal brain close to 15 milligrams, and raw kelp more than 28 milligrams. Still higher levels were found in whale skin and muktuk. Thick skinned, chewy, and collagen rich, raw muktuk can serve up an impressive 36 milligrams in a 100-gram piece, according to Fediuk’s analyses. “Weight for weight, it’s as good as orange juice,” she says. Traditional Inuit practices like freezing meat and fish and frequently eating them raw, she notes, conserve vitamin C, which is easily cooked off and lost in food processing.
Their diets were low in saturated fat, but high in Omega 3, mono and poly-unsaturated fats.
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Old 04-14-2013, 06:31 AM   #59
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What a totally enjoyable thread!
I too am fascinated by the science of nutrition but I am so 'left brain' that the details elude my comprehension. No problem...there are enough summations here to aid my understanding. there were also a couple of really good laughs here too
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my dad's cohort of old hippies...

I'm sometimes referred to as an old hippie, especially when I carry my djembe to a drum circle or my shaman drum to a native american healing circle. LOL
I love LCF because there is soooooooooo much to love.
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Old 04-14-2013, 06:44 AM   #60
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Wow, metqua, you answered my question and so much more.
Thanks ever so much. That post is a keeper!

Yours too, Trillex. I have a close colleague about my age (far side of middle) who has lost a lot of weight on a vegan diet and is always trashing atkins-like approaches. I feel she is really judging my plate when we eat together. Yeah that's probably my misperception, but I tire a bit of her conclusion that it's her way or the highway. Sort of a judgmental self righteousness . . . yes I am probably projecting.

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