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Old 02-21-2013, 05:05 PM   #1
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Do I have to eat? No appetite

10 weeks on lc/hf and lost 23 pounds. Sadly, or happily, I have little or no appetite. Do I have to eat?
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:10 PM   #2
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I've read that skipping meals is a big no=no cause that slows your metabolism. I can't wait to get to that part of this journey. I'm already planning to eat what I love for those meals.

Sometimes I have a late breakfast becuase the HWC and CO in my coffee are calories. But, When that happens, I've not technically skipped cause I do take in calories. But, that late breakfast is something light.

Anxiously waiting for others to chime in......
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:21 PM   #3
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No. I think eating when not hungry is what gets people into trouble and causes weight gain.

I wouldn't go without eating for several days but I don't see anything wrong with going without food for a day or just having a little. How do you feel- weak? Dizzy? If you feel good and just aren't hungry, then make sure to get enough water and some salt (like from broth).
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:37 PM   #4
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As long as you are feeling well and getting enough hydration, eat when you get hungry. Btw, congrats on your success so far!
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:57 PM   #5
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I dont eat when im not hungry.Hunger will come back.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:23 PM   #6
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I agree that you shouldn't eat unless you want to. That is how I got into intermittent fasting, which I have really enjoyed.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:36 PM   #7
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Be careful of your blood sugar. Going without food can cause it to spike if you don't eat regularly!

I get where you are coming from. I pulled wheat from my diet and got a crash course in "cravings" vs "hunger" that I am still learning to deal with. I would go a day or 2 without eating because I sincerely had no appetite (also new to me) but now I am slowly adjusting.

YES - you have to eat. LOL. But with cravings gone, it is easier to make healthier choices like adding parsley/cilantro to a beef patty to get greens in.

This isn't a diet - it is a lifestyle.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:38 PM   #8
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You need a minimum amount of calories or you'll lose lean body mass. And, of course, a minimum amount of protein or you'll lose lean body mass.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:38 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by JessieBear View Post
Be careful of your blood sugar. Going without food can cause it to spike if you don't eat regularly!
I haven't experienced this. How does that work?
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:38 PM   #10
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Like many have said: Eat when you're hungry, don't when you're not. I think had I been taught this as a child I wouldn't have had the struggles with weight that I do. (The "clean your plate" club is one I wish I didn't belong to!) Your body sounds like it's adjusted. If you start to feel dizzy, or get sick, you might want to change it up some, but I am SO JEALOUS of you at your current point! I hope to join you soon!!

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Old 02-21-2013, 07:21 PM   #11
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North Texans, please join me, it would be great to share my journey with you. To all the others that have posted, my sincere appreciation for your input. Unfortunately, I'm still a bit confused because of the difference of opinions. Fortuantely, I am well hydrated and will try to increase my caloric intake. These boards are an inspiration and are so motivating.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:43 AM   #12
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There is no reason to think you will have blood sugar issues (unless you are a diabetic). Blood sugar highs and lows happen on a diet rich in carbs and not on a low carb woe. You will also 'recover' your appetite in due time. The fear of losing lean muscle mass in the period of time that you are not eating is tantamount to saying all intermittent fasters are losing lean body because they go 24 hours (at times) without consuming food. Not so. If you are concerned, just be sure to consume lots of chicken broth. Your appetite will return.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:01 AM   #13
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Actually, very low or no protein will result in LBM losses after about 24 hours according to Dr. Phinney. And very low calories result in loss of LBM too although I am not sure if that also falls into the 24 hour window.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:08 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
Actually, very low or no protein will result in LBM losses after about 24 hours according to Dr. Phinney. And very low calories result in loss of LBM too although I am not sure if that also falls into the 24 hour window.
I have not heard or read that from Dr. Phinney - I would love a reference. However, it does not make sense that the body would start using lean body tissue while there is ample fat stores. And that is just one of the things that doesn't make sense.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:17 AM   #15
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I haven't experienced this. How does that work?
It happens to me. If I go too long without eating, when I do eat, I get a racing heart and light head. It is . I have tried all kinds of interventions, but finally just accepted that this is the way my body is made. The other thing that happens is if I put off eating too long and get suddenly starving, I tend to make really bad food choices. So, I eat a little bit, even when not hungry.
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:23 AM   #16
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It happens to me. If I go too long without eating, when I do eat, I get a racing heart and light head. It is . I have tried all kinds of interventions, but finally just accepted that this is the way my body is made. The other thing that happens is if I put off eating too long and get suddenly starving, I tend to make really bad food choices. So, I eat a little bit, even when not hungry.
That's low blood sugar. JessieBear said blood sugar would spike. Maybe she meant that it would go low? That would make more sense. But I agree w Clackley that that is much less likely for someone eating LC. I would think it would be downright rare, although clearly it does happen. There is no reason to think OP would have this problem.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:22 AM   #17
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I have not heard or read that from Dr. Phinney - I would love a reference. However, it does not make sense that the body would start using lean body tissue while there is ample fat stores. And that is just one of the things that doesn't make sense.
He says it on the Long Term Stalls podcast at 110:36.

Google 'long term stalls phinney jimmy moore'.

I created a thread with a list of minute marks and what was covered in this most excellent podcast. I probably missed a few thing but I captured a lot of what is being discussed:

NK - Phinney & Jimmy Moore - Long Term Stalls podcast

Here are the relevant parts that I have transcribed:

110:36 ------
"Fasting is not a good tool for humans. It is something we only do when there is no food available. It is not something we should do out of choice. And the reason is, on the first day, whether you are keto-adapted or not, the first day that you don't eat any calories or protein is a day that you will be losing lean tissue.

Our body fat does not protect us from losing muscle and internal organ protein if we don't eat protein.

This has been proven in study after study from a hundred years ago to 15 to 20 years ago.

If you don't get enough protein in a day your body will lose some of its lean tissue.

The loses vary from 1/4 pound up to a full pound of lean tissue per day when protein is not eaten during a fast."

113:03 ------

"The key is getting enough protein in each 24 hour period because we know that the loss of, you know when we measure protein breakdown products coming out of the body they go up within the first 24 hour when no protein, when no protein and/or no calories are eaten"
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
He says it on the Long Term Stalls podcast at 110:36.

Google 'long term stalls phinney jimmy moore'.

I created a thread with a list of minute marks and what was covered in this most excellent podcast. I probably missed a few thing but I captured a lot of what is being discussed:

NK - Phinney & Jimmy Moore - Long Term Stalls podcast

Here are the relevant parts that I have transcribed:

110:36 ------
"Fasting is not a good tool for humans. It is something we only do when there is no food available. It is not something we should do out of choice. And the reason is, on the first day, whether you are keto-adapted or not, the first day that you don't eat any calories or protein is a day that you will be losing lean tissue.

Our body fat does not protect us from losing muscle and internal organ protein if we don't eat protein.

This has been proven in study after study from a hundred years ago to 15 to 20 years ago.

If you don't get enough protein in a day your body will lose some of its lean tissue.

The loses vary from 1/4 pound up to a full pound of lean tissue per day when protein is not eaten during a fast."

113:03 ------

"The key is getting enough protein in each 24 hour period because we know that the loss of, you know when we measure protein breakdown products coming out of the body they go up within the first 24 hour when no protein, when no protein and/or no calories are eaten"
Plenty of other sources say otherwise. Only prolonged fasting that approaches starvation is the problem. I consider this a myth, akin to you must eat breakfast and eat several small meals a day to stoke your metabolism.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:39 AM   #19
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Dr. Johnson, who created the Alternate-Day diet (known here as JUDDD) claims (and it's the basis for his plan) that the human body doesn't respond to changes in eating for at least 48 hours and probably longer for many people (depending on metabolism). That's why he limits the low-calorie (or fasting) day to 24 hours. The following day of higher calories will prevent the body from reacting to that single day of lower calories.

When I began JUDDD, I also checked the protein issue with Dr. Eades, since I knew I could not get my minimum requirements in on the low-calorie day, and he agreed that there was no problem with a single day of low calorie, low protein.

All IF plans operate from this same principle--i.e., less than 24 hours of fasting, and they are endorsed by many medical experts.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:46 AM   #20
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113:03 ------

"The key is getting enough protein in each 24 hour period because we know that the loss of, you know when we measure protein breakdown products coming out of the body they go up within the first 24 hour when no protein, when no protein and/or no calories are eaten"
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:52 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
113:03 ------

"The key is getting enough protein in each 24 hour period because we know that the loss of, you know when we measure protein breakdown products coming out of the body they go up within the first 24 hour when no protein, when no protein and/or no calories are eaten"
Other doctors and researchers disagree with this.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:11 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddarin View Post
113:03 ------

"The key is getting enough protein in each 24 hour period because we know that the loss of, you know when we measure protein breakdown products coming out of the body they go up within the first 24 hour when no protein, when no protein and/or no calories are eaten"
I don't buy it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:14 PM   #23
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I don't buy it.
You asked for a reference. I gave it to you.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:22 PM   #24
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Yes but it was not exactly what I was asking for. I would have hoped it would be some actual data rather than 'what Dr. Phinney said in a pod cast'.

I think the good doctor knows a lot of good stuff and he may know this issue quite well too but when talking in generalities (as is the case in this type of forum), we don't need to be scaring people with cautions of losing lean muscle mass because they may not be eating much over a few days. It is the nature of ketosis to reduce appetite - normal, natural and good.

Eat if you are hungry and don't if you are not. Keep yourself hydrated and include chicken broth to ward off unpleasant symptoms. I think that is suffice. Just my humble opinion.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:40 PM   #25
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Yes but it was not exactly what I was asking for. I would have hoped it would be some actual data rather than 'what Dr. Phinney said in a pod cast'.
It isn't exactly what you asked for?

"I have not heard or read that from Dr. Phinney - I would love a reference"

And, beg pardon, but I didn't just paraphrase what Dr. Phinney said, I transcribed it word for word for you. I also provided you with the exact location on the recording so you could hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

Quote:
I think the good doctor knows a lot of good stuff and he may know this issue quite well too but when talking in generalities (as is the case in this type of forum), we don't need to be scaring people with cautions of losing lean muscle mass because they may not be eating much over a few days. It is the nature of ketosis to reduce appetite - normal, natural and good.
Either the loss of LBM is real or it is not.

I would far, far rather be aware of it than find out later that I could have avoided a problem, possibly a really big problem, had I known the facts in the first place. At least I have the choice of making an informed decision. There are few if any warning signs of protein deficiency.

Quote:
Eat if you are hungry and don't if you are not. Keep yourself hydrated and include chicken broth to ward off unpleasant symptoms. I think that is suffice. Just my humble opinion.
Surely there is room for a variety of opinions, mine included.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:46 PM   #26
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Clearly there is difference of opinion on this issue, among posters and perhaps among experts.

I can say that there are a large number of people on this board who have months or years of experience eating very low calories or completely fasting every other day without ill effect--that is the basis for the JUDDD plan (which I and many others have followed in good health). There is a substantial body of scientific literature that supports intermittent fasting as a healthy practice; see Dr. Johnson's book on "The Alternate Day Diet" for references. People using JUDDD often find that intermittent, every-other-day fasting improves many of their health problems and does not result in losing lean muscle mass (though it can be effective for fat burning). Other approaches, such as "fast five," "the warrior diet," and Micheal Mosely's book on the 5-2 fasting plan (fast 2 days out of five, but not consecutive days) also emphasize the health benefits of intermittent fasting and have references to scientific/scholarly literature to back this up.

That said, JUDDD works best if one eats a healthy around-maintenance level number of calories the next day after fasting--so I would not use it as evidence that one should avoid eating completely for several days in a row, unless recovering from an illness and unable to stomach food while ill. I assume that the OP is saying that he or she is not hungry today, rather than not hungry every day. Even if ketosis leads to a period of severely suppressed appetite for a while (such as a few days), I think it's likely that appetite will return soon.

Take away message for me--if you aren't hungry on a given day and don't want to eat, don't eat and don't worry about it. If you aren't eating for several days in a row, that may (temporarily) depress your metabolism and be less healthy. Staying hydrated and drinking broth, as Clackley suggests, is probably a good idea; it's what I do on my JUDDD "down days" (under 300 calories).
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:53 PM   #27
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It isn't exactly what you asked for?

"I have not heard or read that from Dr. Phinney - I would love a reference"

And, beg pardon, but I didn't just paraphrase what Dr. Phinney said, I transcribed it word for word for you. I also provided you with the exact location on the recording so you could hear it straight from the horse's mouth.



Either the loss of LBM is real or it is not.

I would far, far rather be aware of it than find out later that I could have avoided a problem, possibly a really big problem, had I known the facts in the first place. At least I have the choice of making an informed decision. There are few if any warning signs of protein deficiency.



Surely there is room for a variety of opinions, mine included.
Opinions are abundant - yours included. Surely there is room for objections as well.
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:55 PM   #28
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Opinions are abundant - yours included. Surely there is room for objections as well.
It doesn't seem like that sometimes
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:56 PM   #29
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Adding more fuel to the "YMMV" fire: there is a lot of chatter now about a 16 hour fasting/8 hour eating window, too.
Google: "The 8 Hour Diet" for that info (because there's not enough differing opinions on this yet! )
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Old 02-22-2013, 03:56 PM   #30
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That's low blood sugar. JessieBear said blood sugar would spike. Maybe she meant that it would go low? That would make more sense. But I agree w Clackley that that is much less likely for someone eating LC. I would think it would be downright rare, although clearly it does happen. There is no reason to think OP would have this problem.
You are correct - I didn't say that right. Thanks for catching it!
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