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socaligirl714 02-19-2013 11:25 AM

Carb Cycling
 
Has anyone tried this with good results?
My hubby read something about this and was intrested in trying it... Im kind of skeptical because I am so bad with change... Everytime i switch to low cal i fall off so bad because i think oh i can have that its within my calories... then i end up not writing all my calorie intake... for me low carb works best because i know what i can have and what i can't.

SadieJack 02-19-2013 11:59 AM

I am wondering about this as well. :dunno:

reddarin 02-19-2013 01:09 PM

Isn't JUDDD a defacto carb cycling plan? I know some people keep LC but I've seen lots of posts about eating whatever they want on up days.

SadieJack 02-19-2013 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddarin (Post 16268113)
Isn't JUDDD a defacto carb cycling plan? I know some people keep LC but I've seen lots of posts about eating whatever they want on up days.

Not necessarily because on your down days, you could feasibly have your calorie alottment in all carbs if you wanted to. It doesn't restrict carbs as much as calories. But some people do both LC and low calorie. I am finding that I cannot do this WOE very well. You are almost starving on your down days. I have switched to straight LC.

Leo41 02-19-2013 03:24 PM

JUDDD is a CALORIE cycling plan. It has nothing to do with carbs, but many people here eat low carb on JUDDD, as I did.

With JUDDD, it's calories that are important; the nature of the food eaten is considered irrelevant, which is why it can be totally consistent with a low-cab WOE.

I don't consider myself 'doing JUDDD' any longer, but I still cycle calories.

reddarin 02-19-2013 03:36 PM

Um. heh I know JUDDD is a CALORIE cycling plan. Are down days 100% carbs?

I was thinking of the generic 500 or 600 calorie down day being a relatively low carb day if any meat is eaten.

I guess the issue is really about defining the term - what is carb cycling for the purpose of this thread?

SadieJack 02-19-2013 03:41 PM

My understanding of carb cycling is to eat very LC one day, increase to X amount of carbs the next and then eat unlimited carbs the next day... Rinse, repeat.

And down days are NOT necessarily 100% carbs... you can eat anything on up/down days as long as you stay in your calorie limit. If you desired, you COULD eat 100% carb on down days, but you probably would not feel that well.

reddarin 02-19-2013 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SadieJack (Post 16268440)
My understanding of carb cycling is to eat very LC one day, increase to X amount of carbs the next and then eat unlimited carbs the next day... Rinse, repeat.

And down days are NOT necessarily 100% carbs... you can eat anything on up/down days as long as you stay in your calorie limit. If you desired, you COULD eat 100% carb on down days, but you probably would not feel that well.

Oh? I thought carb cycling was strictly up/down. There are probably a lot of variations on the theme.

Yeah, that is sort of what I was thinking. If half you cals are protein and the other half are low GI carbs and the next day was breaded pork chops, mashed potatoes and green beans you'd be doing a pretty serious carb cycling plan.

What made me think of it was that I'd seen someone actually post something to that effect - they were doing JUDDD and going to try cycling carbs between up and down days.

Casey 02-19-2013 04:48 PM

I tried JUDD keeping both up and down days low carb.... I lasted 4 days and I could not endure the down days - low blood sugar sent me over the edge. But - I think it would be easy to do a low carb version of JUDD. I just can't get by on the 500 or 600 per day. I modified it to be 1000 to 1200 calories on down days and 1600 to 1800 on up days.

Casey 02-19-2013 04:50 PM

The concept of cycling makes some sense to me, so I'll play around with it to see what works.

picklepete 02-19-2013 05:02 PM

It might depend on your habitual carb level. Long-term VLC is not a common or well-studied state so we're not really sure what happens to the body when it's in a constant state of glucose manufacture.

Lately I've been experimenting with more squashes, beets, and parsnips--my appetite has gone down by doing so. I would not try a refeed with wheat or sugar though--the red marks against them go beyond the carb load.

Taxbane 02-19-2013 07:34 PM

I have heard of Keto-Cycling but not really low carb cycling.

In general the underlying premises of "low carb" are (1) Ketosis and (2) minimization of insulin spikes.

In terms of minimizing insulin secretion one should eat less than 12-15 carbs in a 2 hour window. So cycling into and out of this aspect would probably not be effective, unless the types of carbs consumed increased in quantity but decreased according to the glycemic index (how fast you metabolize the carbs in that food).

In terms of ketosis, from what I read is an ongoing process that significantly ramps up when your brain can no longer use glucose from your diet or glycogen from your liver stores and is forced to switch to ketones in part and then forces your liver to manufacture the brains required amount of glucose through gluconeogensis from your dietary protein. That said, cycling carb intake to carbs greater than 60ish will likely kick you out of ketosis. Nonetheless, I have read about ketogenic diets which are cycled "CKDs" in The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald. The CKD is used to maintain adequate levels of muscle glycogen for a regular week's workouts, where a standard ketogenic diet is used for 5-6 days of the week and then 1-2 days is used to carb load (replenish) your muscles (and livers) glycogen stores for the following week's work outs. IMO, it is a bit complicated, but seems well laid out in the book how to maintain atheletic perfomance while on a ketogenic diet and still maintain fat loss.

NOTE: If one has a sugar addiction, then purposely consuming excess sugar/grains durring cycling could trigger cravings and set backs in terms of dealing with the addiction. Kinda like an alcoholic staying sober during the week and then partying on the weekends... Of course, sugar addiction does not effect everyone, so this note may not apply.

Punkin 02-20-2013 03:58 AM

I think the reason why bodybuilders do carb cycling is so that they can maintain their body in an anabolic state, which is necessary for building muscle. In other words insulin is required. Eating a lot of carbs once a week, maintains a high insulin level which is required for building muscle. Staying in long term ketosis would keep your body in a catabolic state which wouldn't do much for building muscle. So they cycle the carbs to maximize the muscle growth with some fat loss (hopefully) during the ketogenic part of the diet.

Having said that though, it is assumed that they have a normal metabolism and their bodies still know how to burn fat in the presence of high carb days. Sugar addicts and people with metabolic syndrome, or a damaged metabolism would struggle with the high carb periods, so carb cycling wouldn't work for everyone.

Stackdiesel 02-20-2013 09:06 AM

Just to clarify the nomenclature with respect to diets that deliberately vary carb intake, “carb cycling,” “cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD),” and “targeted ketogenic diet (TKD)” are three different approaches, notwithstanding that people tend to collectively label them as “carb cycling.”

For purposes of the below discussion, “HC” means “high carb,” “LC” means “low carb,” “MC” means “medium carb,” “VLC” means “very low carb,” and “VHC” means “very high carb.”

True “carb cycling” varies carb intake on a daily basis, usually over a 7-day cycle. For example, a typical week might be HC/LC/MC/VLC/VHC/LC/VLC, with the VHC, HC and MC days assigned to the most glycogen-dependent workout days (high-volume or high-intensity resistance training, and sprinting/hill running), LC days assigned to low-intensity steady-state cardio days (walking), and VLC days assigned to rest days. The idea is to match carb intake to activity type, to fuel glycogen-dependent exercise and facilitate an anabolic hormonal environment at appropriate times, and to facilitate fat burning at appropriate times.

Carb cycling is successfully used by many bodybuilders and athletes, but one must bear in mind that, generally, these are very disciplined (arguably obsessive-compulsive), already-fit people who have no issues with meticulously planning meals in advance, weighing and measuring everything, etc. It takes a lot of planning, work, and maintenance to get it right. Carb-cycling is great for, say, a muscular guy at 11-12% bodyfat with visible upper abs to get to 6% BF and shredded. Based on my observation and experience, it is not very effective for regular people who just need to lose a substantial amount of fat.

As Taxbane noted, a cyclical ketogenic diet (“CKD”) involves a period of sustained low-carb eating to induce ketosis and burn fat, followed by a “carb-up” or “re-feed” period to replenish muscle and liver glycogen and create an anabolic hormonal environment for the week’s most demanding workouts. Dr. Mauro DiPasquale’s “Anabolic Diet” is generally considered the original CKD, with authors such as Lyle McDonald and Mark McManus having subsequently refined and tweaked the concepts in different ways.

In its original form, the Anabolic Diet calls for an initial 2-week very low carb period (tantamount to Induction), followed by a 48-hour carb-up, then follows a weekly cycle (5 days VLC, 2 days carb-up). Most CKD advocates traditionally prescribe a reduction in fat consumption during the carb-up, so it is not meant to be an all-out gorgefest/cheat period of donuts, fries, pizza and other carb-and-fat-mixed-together-calorie bombs. Basically, protein should remain constant while the dieter switches to a high-carb/low-fat diet for 2 days to restore glycogen but keep the calorie load in check. In contrast, McManus (and others) basically eat ad libitum during the “carb-up,” and it is really more of a “cheat period” than a pure carb-up, sometimes referred to as a “dirty” carb-up or re-feed.

Personally, I’ve only done a “dirty” CKD, because, being honest, what I really wanted to do was eat foods I felt deprived of, not mechanically restore glycogen levels eating lots of plain sweet potatoes, brown rice and oatmeal for 2 days. I had no real success doing the CKD on a 5/2 schedule, as I seemed to just keep dumping the same pounds of glycogen and water each week without getting into any real fat burning, but I had a couple of very good CKD runs when I stretched the re-feeds out to once every two weeks (basically doing the initial phase of the Anabolic Diet repeatedly and not reducing to the 5/2 frequency).

A targeted ketogenic diet (“TKD”) involves eating carbs only around glycogen-dependent workouts/activities, such as pre-and-post resistance training or sprinting. One basically eats low carb all the time, except for the limited pre/during/post-workout window. Similar to carb-cycling, the idea is to provide glycogen and trigger insulin secretion when both can be put to good use, and stay low carb the rest of the time. In theory, assuming one doesn’t go overboard with the carbs, one can quickly re-enter ketosis for the period following the limited carb-up. Dr. Jeff Volek, one of the authors of The New Atkins for a New You, has authored a book called the TNT Diet, which, in my opinion, is the best resource for those interested in a TKD.

The TKD sounds great in theory, but never quite clicked for me. It always seemed like I either ate too few carbs for it to be worthwhile or too many to get the benefits of sustained ketosis. Perhaps if I’d taken the time to get it just right, it would be great.

So what's my point? Other than to more precisely define our terms, I suppose it's to caution substantially overfat people to be wary of these approaches. Unless one can, and is willing to, use these diets as the precise, hormone-manipulating tools they're meant to be, they end up as thinly-veiled binge-and-purge cycles/events and excuses to eat crap.

Hopefully this helps your discussion.

Regards,
Stack

socaligirl714 02-20-2013 10:19 AM

i guess my husand read Chris Powell from extreme weightloss makeover and he does something like that.

Monday = No Carb
Tuesday = Low Carb
Wednesday = High Carb
Thursday = No Carb
Friday = Low carb
Saturday = High Carb+
Sunday = Low Carb

He wanted to try the book to try it... But i am such a creature of habit... i think low carb is the best for me because i get carried away LOL

Taxbane 02-20-2013 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stackdiesel (Post 16269760)
Just to clarify the nomenclature with respect to diets that deliberately vary carb intake, “carb cycling,” “cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD),” and “targeted ketogenic diet (TKD)” are three different approaches, notwithstanding that people tend to collectively label them as “carb cycling.”

For purposes of the below discussion, “HC” means “high carb,” “LC” means “low carb,” “MC” means “medium carb,” “VLC” means “very low carb,” and “VHC” means “very high carb.”

True “carb cycling” varies carb intake on a daily basis, usually over a 7-day cycle. For example, a typical week might be HC/LC/MC/VLC/VHC/LC/VLC, with the VHC, HC and MC days assigned to the most glycogen-dependent workout days (high-volume or high-intensity resistance training, and sprinting/hill running), LC days assigned to low-intensity steady-state cardio days (walking), and VLC days assigned to rest days. The idea is to match carb intake to activity type, to fuel glycogen-dependent exercise and facilitate an anabolic hormonal environment at appropriate times, and to facilitate fat burning at appropriate times.

Carb cycling is successfully used by many bodybuilders and athletes, but one must bear in mind that, generally, these are very disciplined (arguably obsessive-compulsive), already-fit people who have no issues with meticulously planning meals in advance, weighing and measuring everything, etc. It takes a lot of planning, work, and maintenance to get it right. Carb-cycling is great for, say, a muscular guy at 11-12% bodyfat with visible upper abs to get to 6% BF and shredded. Based on my observation and experience, it is not very effective for regular people who just need to lose a substantial amount of fat.

As Taxbane noted, a cyclical ketogenic diet (“CKD”) involves a period of sustained low-carb eating to induce ketosis and burn fat, followed by a “carb-up” or “re-feed” period to replenish muscle and liver glycogen and create an anabolic hormonal environment for the week’s most demanding workouts. Dr. Mauro DiPasquale’s “Anabolic Diet” is generally considered the original CKD, with authors such as Lyle McDonald and Mark McManus having subsequently refined and tweaked the concepts in different ways.

In its original form, the Anabolic Diet calls for an initial 2-week very low carb period (tantamount to Induction), followed by a 48-hour carb-up, then follows a weekly cycle (5 days VLC, 2 days carb-up). Most CKD advocates traditionally prescribe a reduction in fat consumption during the carb-up, so it is not meant to be an all-out gorgefest/cheat period of donuts, fries, pizza and other carb-and-fat-mixed-together-calorie bombs. Basically, protein should remain constant while the dieter switches to a high-carb/low-fat diet for 2 days to restore glycogen but keep the calorie load in check. In contrast, McManus (and others) basically eat ad libitum during the “carb-up,” and it is really more of a “cheat period” than a pure carb-up, sometimes referred to as a “dirty” carb-up or re-feed.

Personally, I’ve only done a “dirty” CKD, because, being honest, what I really wanted to do was eat foods I felt deprived of, not mechanically restore glycogen levels eating lots of plain sweet potatoes, brown rice and oatmeal for 2 days. I had no real success doing the CKD on a 5/2 schedule, as I seemed to just keep dumping the same pounds of glycogen and water each week without getting into any real fat burning, but I had a couple of very good CKD runs when I stretched the re-feeds out to once every two weeks (basically doing the initial phase of the Anabolic Diet repeatedly and not reducing to the 5/2 frequency).

A targeted ketogenic diet (“TKD”) involves eating carbs only around glycogen-dependent workouts/activities, such as pre-and-post resistance training or sprinting. One basically eats low carb all the time, except for the limited pre/during/post-workout window. Similar to carb-cycling, the idea is to provide glycogen and trigger insulin secretion when both can be put to good use, and stay low carb the rest of the time. In theory, assuming one doesn’t go overboard with the carbs, one can quickly re-enter ketosis for the period following the limited carb-up. Dr. Jeff Volek, one of the authors of The New Atkins for a New You, has authored a book called the TNT Diet, which, in my opinion, is the best resource for those interested in a TKD.

The TKD sounds great in theory, but never quite clicked for me. It always seemed like I either ate too few carbs for it to be worthwhile or too many to get the benefits of sustained ketosis. Perhaps if I’d taken the time to get it just right, it would be great.

So what's my point? Other than to more precisely define our terms, I suppose it's to caution substantially overfat people to be wary of these approaches. Unless one can, and is willing to, use these diets as the precise, hormone-manipulating tools they're meant to be, they end up as thinly-veiled binge-and-purge cycles/events and excuses to eat crap.

Hopefully this helps your discussion.

Regards,
Stack

:goodpost:

SadieJack 02-21-2013 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stackdiesel (Post 16269760)
Just to clarify the nomenclature with respect to diets that deliberately vary carb intake, “carb cycling,” “cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD),” and “targeted ketogenic diet (TKD)” are three different approaches, notwithstanding that people tend to collectively label them as “carb cycling.”

For purposes of the below discussion, “HC” means “high carb,” “LC” means “low carb,” “MC” means “medium carb,” “VLC” means “very low carb,” and “VHC” means “very high carb.”

True “carb cycling” varies carb intake on a daily basis, usually over a 7-day cycle. For example, a typical week might be HC/LC/MC/VLC/VHC/LC/VLC, with the VHC, HC and MC days assigned to the most glycogen-dependent workout days (high-volume or high-intensity resistance training, and sprinting/hill running), LC days assigned to low-intensity steady-state cardio days (walking), and VLC days assigned to rest days. The idea is to match carb intake to activity type, to fuel glycogen-dependent exercise and facilitate an anabolic hormonal environment at appropriate times, and to facilitate fat burning at appropriate times.

Carb cycling is successfully used by many bodybuilders and athletes, but one must bear in mind that, generally, these are very disciplined (arguably obsessive-compulsive), already-fit people who have no issues with meticulously planning meals in advance, weighing and measuring everything, etc. It takes a lot of planning, work, and maintenance to get it right. Carb-cycling is great for, say, a muscular guy at 11-12% bodyfat with visible upper abs to get to 6% BF and shredded. Based on my observation and experience, it is not very effective for regular people who just need to lose a substantial amount of fat.

As Taxbane noted, a cyclical ketogenic diet (“CKD”) involves a period of sustained low-carb eating to induce ketosis and burn fat, followed by a “carb-up” or “re-feed” period to replenish muscle and liver glycogen and create an anabolic hormonal environment for the week’s most demanding workouts. Dr. Mauro DiPasquale’s “Anabolic Diet” is generally considered the original CKD, with authors such as Lyle McDonald and Mark McManus having subsequently refined and tweaked the concepts in different ways.

In its original form, the Anabolic Diet calls for an initial 2-week very low carb period (tantamount to Induction), followed by a 48-hour carb-up, then follows a weekly cycle (5 days VLC, 2 days carb-up). Most CKD advocates traditionally prescribe a reduction in fat consumption during the carb-up, so it is not meant to be an all-out gorgefest/cheat period of donuts, fries, pizza and other carb-and-fat-mixed-together-calorie bombs. Basically, protein should remain constant while the dieter switches to a high-carb/low-fat diet for 2 days to restore glycogen but keep the calorie load in check. In contrast, McManus (and others) basically eat ad libitum during the “carb-up,” and it is really more of a “cheat period” than a pure carb-up, sometimes referred to as a “dirty” carb-up or re-feed.

Personally, I’ve only done a “dirty” CKD, because, being honest, what I really wanted to do was eat foods I felt deprived of, not mechanically restore glycogen levels eating lots of plain sweet potatoes, brown rice and oatmeal for 2 days. I had no real success doing the CKD on a 5/2 schedule, as I seemed to just keep dumping the same pounds of glycogen and water each week without getting into any real fat burning, but I had a couple of very good CKD runs when I stretched the re-feeds out to once every two weeks (basically doing the initial phase of the Anabolic Diet repeatedly and not reducing to the 5/2 frequency).

A targeted ketogenic diet (“TKD”) involves eating carbs only around glycogen-dependent workouts/activities, such as pre-and-post resistance training or sprinting. One basically eats low carb all the time, except for the limited pre/during/post-workout window. Similar to carb-cycling, the idea is to provide glycogen and trigger insulin secretion when both can be put to good use, and stay low carb the rest of the time. In theory, assuming one doesn’t go overboard with the carbs, one can quickly re-enter ketosis for the period following the limited carb-up. Dr. Jeff Volek, one of the authors of The New Atkins for a New You, has authored a book called the TNT Diet, which, in my opinion, is the best resource for those interested in a TKD.

The TKD sounds great in theory, but never quite clicked for me. It always seemed like I either ate too few carbs for it to be worthwhile or too many to get the benefits of sustained ketosis. Perhaps if I’d taken the time to get it just right, it would be great.

So what's my point? Other than to more precisely define our terms, I suppose it's to caution substantially overfat people to be wary of these approaches. Unless one can, and is willing to, use these diets as the precise, hormone-manipulating tools they're meant to be, they end up as thinly-veiled binge-and-purge cycles/events and excuses to eat crap.

Hopefully this helps your discussion.

Regards,
Stack

Thanks very much for the informative posting! If I might ask, what method eventually worked for you?


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