Clarification needed.

[DeborahL]

I saw the following statement. "If a person has 50 lbs to lose, they can't have half an apple until they are almost to goal weight."

I understood climbing the ladder to mean that once you find your CLL you can still continue up the ladder as long as you stay within your carb target. Did Atkins say specifically that once you've found your CLL you had to stop at that ladder rung until the pre-maintenance or maintenance phases?

Thanks for any insight.

[svenskamae]

I just looked at the Atkins website. To follow the plan to the letter, you follow the induction rules for 2 weeks at the start and then can add 5 net carbs more per week. Dairy, nuts and seeds, fruits (berries/melon), and juices like tomato juice are normally added first. Then when you are almost at goal, you can add 10 net carbs more per week, from the starchy vegetable, legumes, other fruits, and finally grains categories.

I guess that I follow Atkins less strictly than that, because I plan to cautiously include some of the "other fruit" this summer (and I won't be nearly at goal then); I don't miss starchy vegetables and legumes much, so I may continue to ignore them; and I don't ever plan to eat grains regularly. That would be jumping up one rung a bit early and not bothering to climb some of the other rungs.

That said, I don't think that eating half an apple (with some fat, like almond butter or cheese, to minimize the insulin spike) before I'm almost at goal constitutes a very serious deviation from the general Atkins plan.

I should note that the specification I give above are for the current Atkins plan; DANDR may be different. I'm a bit cynical about some elements of the new plan (the bars and shakes being fine, for example), and I'd feel more confident eating part of an apple than eating bars with sugar alcohols.

[Punkin]

Originally Posted by DeborahL

I saw the following statement. "If a person has 50 lbs to lose, they can't have half an apple until they are almost to goal weight."

I understood climbing the ladder to mean that once you find your CLL you can still continue up the ladder as long as you stay within your carb target. Did Atkins say specifically that once you've found your CLL you had to stop at that ladder rung until the pre-maintenance or maintenance phases?

Thanks for any insight.

I think its because someone who has 50lbs to lose would probably lose faster if they stay closer to the induction phase, meaning that they are staying fairly low carb. The lower your carbs, the more your body relies on fat for fuel, so you just simply burn more fat than someone who goes up to a higher level of carbs, ie. the level where they are introducing fruit. Again it depends on the person too. I'm just above the induction level meaning my carbs are 20-25g/day. But every once in awhile I eat 1/4 cup of chick peas which is way up on the carb ladder. Chick peas is a dangerous food only because it gives you a high dose of carbs. But I make sure when I eat them they are paired with a ton of fat and fibre so the carbs are balanced. I try to model the induction ratio as much as possible and they seem to be ok. Believe it or not I can get away with eating a tsp of sugar, if I pair it with the right type of food, but it probably isn't a good idea because sugar is pure carbs its risky because it is also a refined carb.

Having said that, whether or not you eat an apple is probably a personal decision, I wouldn't worry about the rules, for some people it takes the thinking out of it, but in the new atkins book they encourage you to experiment once you are out of induction (ie. past the first two weeks).

[reddarin]

I think the post you are referring to was more about the strictures of a book plan versus the roll your own plan that so many people do rather than an exact representation of Atkins.

[DeborahL]

It was, reddarin. I want to follow the plan and it just didn't read the same way I understood the plan. Let's say I find that 30 is my CLL, is it not alright to continue adding foods from higher on the ladder as long as I stay within that 30 carb target?

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by DeborahL

It was, reddarin. I want to follow the plan and it just didn't read the same way I understood the plan. Let's say I find that 30 is my CLL, is it not alright to continue adding foods from higher on the ladder as long as I stay within that 30 carb target?

I don't have any of the Atkins books but what you are describing sounds correct to me Deborah.

You could repost your question over on the Atkins sub-forum:

Atkins Nutritional Approach - Low Carb Friends

Or get a moderator to move it over there.

[Spanilingo]

I did it exactly your way Deborah. I went up the ladder with both food and carb amounts and ate a variety within those limits. When I figured my threshold I ate everything I wanted within those carb limits. So maybe I would eat an apple but I adjusted my carb amount somewhere else. It did not affect my weight loss as all. DURING OWL I ate anywhere from 30-60 carbs a day and a variety of food.

Honestly, I think people interpret it differently. There is a structure to the rungs though it escapes me right now. I am sure if you search Atkins Ladder you will find it.

That being said, the beauty of Atkins is that nothing is forbidden completely. You have to figure it out and personalize it. OWL is kind of tricky that way. Some people have trigger foods (for example someone may eat 20 carbs of fruit and have NO problems with stalling but 20 carbs of wheat will cause all kinds of problems). Some folks believe it or not can eat 10 grams of sugar but potatoes will stall them for weeks.

SO --it isnt always the carb amount but the type of food people have problems.

Problem people have is more like this...you have drastically cut calories and carbs because you aren't eating as much as you have,,a 1/2 apple a day WONT stall you...so you add in something else starchy...and given you aren't eating a whole lot of junk anyway "those few fries" won't stall you either. SOOOOO you eat a few more fries....etc....

[DeborahL]

Thank you so much for the feedback sven, punkin, reddarin, and spanilingo!

[DeborahL]

Originally Posted by Spanilingo

Problem people have is more like this...you have drastically cut calories and carbs because you aren't eating as much as you have,,a 1/2 apple a day WONT stall you...so you add in something else starchy...and given you aren't eating a whole lot of junk anyway "those few fries" won't stall you either. SOOOOO you eat a few more fries....etc....

Yes. That is an issue I figured I would have to be aware of as well.

[Trigger828]

Originally Posted by reddarin

I think the post you are referring to was more about the strictures of a book plan versus the roll your own plan that so many people do rather than an exact representation of Atkins.

yes I said it and it wasn't to be taken as an exact representation of atkins when I stated it. thanks for knowing what I meant.

[Adoug4ho]

Spanilingo, I think you're so right! I can eat 20-30 carbs on a regular day, but a few weeks ago I had an apple-with nut butter to assuage the insulin spike-and it sent me into a carb craving frenzy. It was definitely an eye opening experience. No apples over here!

[emel]

Half an apple is gonna take up a lot of your carb budget.
There are 15 g of carb, 12.5 net carbs in a half a good-sized apple.

Atkins suggests adding foods with 5 carbs or less per serving on the first few rungs.
Later you can add back foods w/10 grams per serving.
Since the carbs in a half an apple is higher than 5 or 10, it is not recommended to add them back until you're close to maintenence.

Sometimes my husband and I split a snack tray at home--- meats, cheeses, veggie strips, and apple. Later in owl, I might eat a piece or two of the apple, but I don't think I'm willing to give up half of my daily carb allowance for a few bites of apple, when there are better choices.

[emel]

Spanilingo--- here's the ladder.

Phase 1, Induction:
Rung 1: Foundation vegetables: leafy greens and other low-carb vegetables
Rung 2: Dairy foods high in fat and low in carbs: cream, sour cream, and most hard cheeses
Phase 2, Ongoing Weight Loss:
Rung 3: Nuts and seeds (but not chestnuts)
Rung 4: Berries, cherries, and melon (but not watermelon)
Rung 5: Whole milk yogurt and fresh cheeses, such as cottage cheese and ricotta
Rung 6: Legumes, including chickpeas, lentils, and the like.
Rung 7: Tomato and vegetable juice “cocktail” (plus more lemon and lime juice)
Phases 3 and 4, Pre-Maintenance and Lifetime Maintenance:
Rung 8: Other fruits (but not fruit juices or dried fruits)
Rung 9: Higher-carb vegetables, such as winter squash, carrots, and peas
Rung 10: Whole grains

[emel]

the old style (DANDR) ladder was

more veggies, the same ones as the beginning.
Cheese (cottage cheese recommended as a first addition)
Nuts and seeds
Berries
Alcohol
Legumes
Other fruits
Starchy vegetables
Whole grains

[Kimberli33]

Technically, when doing Atkins by the book, an apple falls low on the list,quite close to maintenance.Rung 8,I believe??

[emel]

And finally, the OLD old school... Atkins 72.
I never did this one, so I had to grab stuff off the net. What I found does not move forward to the higher 'rungs' or levels.

I’ve labeled the additions of carbohydrate that follow’ second level’, ‘third level’, ‘fourth level’, ‘fifth level’, but in fact the additions are interchangeable and flexible. You can make any of these additions any week that you choose. I am so committed to making this a livable lifetime diet that I am letting you select your own variations, within the rules set up by your biological rulebook.
Put back what you’ve missed the most: The idea is simply to gradually return to your diet first what you missed most. Custom-tailor the diet to suit your carbohydrate additions to suit your lifestyle. All that matters is that you add back to your diet a little carbohydrate at a time, and that you stop adding carbohydrate when you reach your CCL.
How to know when to put back a little carbohydrate: Ask yourself: Are the keto-stix still turning purple? Am I still un-hungry? Have I stopped eating at night? Do I have more energy? Am I still losing weight or inches nicely? Remember, your tape measure is a lot better friend than your scale, not only more accurate, but better able to report on the actual fat (not just temporary water) losses this diet achieves.
The Second Level: Cheesecake for dessert? At each level, remember you add approximately five to eight grams of carbohydrate daily for a week and analyze the results. Most people agree the best way to handle the second level is to add cottage cheese…

From the bolded part, I infer that apple is not a great choice, because you could only get 1/4 of an apple to stay in the "5 to 8 gr" range. However, later on, you could 'trade' one old addition plus your 'new' 5-8 carb addition for a half an apple.

Dr. Atkins, the actual person, was committed to making the plan flexible, with the goal of keeping overall carbs low. So he'd say that if you're willing to allot that many carbs, you could have a half an apple, as long as you kept your total carb count at or below the level for where you are on the ladder.

[DeborahL]

Thank you for the info, emel.

[DeborahL]

Originally Posted by Trigger828

yes I said it and it wasn't to be taken as an exact representation of atkins when I stated it. thanks for knowing what I meant.

I hope I did not offend you by pulling your quote and apologize if I did. It simply raised a question in my mind.