Question about Lower Protein with LCing.

[Patkid]

It is okay if you don't care to take the time to answer this. I KNOW there is a ton of information on the web and in this forum. I have resisted asking this question till I did some reading on my own. I also have been reading the menus posted by folks who follow this woe (T Y, Clackley).
I am not clear and when I read about it I get all wrapped up in the math and confuse myself.
What I am asking for is a brief synopsis of HOW to cut protein on LC. I don't know what else to eat. Is it calorie cutting in disguise? But that doesn't make sense as you are supposed to eat high fat. Is it general reduction in volume of food~and the assumption that the fat will make you feel fuller?
Thanks, for any insight. I hate feeling dense.

[synger]

If you cut protein and carbs, you have to increase fat. You have to eat! Some tips I've heard (and some I've tried):

Cut back on meat portions. Eat a couple fewer ounces. Add butter or sour cream. It's really easy to make an herbed butter ahead of time and then cut a piece and let it melt over the top of a piece of meat.

Drink coffee/tea/diet soda with cream. Some folks add coconut oil or butter to their tea or coffee.

Nuts and nut butters can be a tasty way to add fat.

Eat higher-fat cheeses like brie and cream cheese.

Make dips for your veggies or pork rinds. One of my faves is cream cheese warmed with liverwurst. But basic sour cream dips work well, too. Or mashed hard eggs with mayo and curry powder (like a curried egg salad for dipping).

[Mrs S]

For me the way to cut protein on LC was to increase fat. Fat does make me feel fuller and for much longer. It keeps the cravings away. Upping fat has been key to my being able to stick to it this time around. I find I naturally eat less and I can fast more comfortably. It's easier for me to keep calories down this way. It's also pretty much cured problems like heartburn, stomach/digestive issues and headaches. Yay for fat!

[svenskamae]

I agree on increasing the fat. I've had to plan meals that were NOT built around protein but instead around fat. For example, I usually have coffee with 1/4 cup of heavy cream for breakfast. Sometimes I have a quarter cup of macademia nuts for lunch, or a bunch of greens sauteed in bacon grease. For dinner, I often have a giant salad with lots of raw veggies, some crumbled blue cheese and bacon, and a generous amount of full fat dressing--but no other added protein. Or I might make a highfat dip with a cream cheese base and eat that with raw vegetables or on flax crackers. If I go out to eat in a restaurant and order a protein entree, that means the rest of my meals will be based around fat, NOT protein. The only way that I can manage this high fat/moderate protein approach is to use a tracker and weigh and measure everything; those protein grams add up fast!

Here's a thread with some high fat/moderate protein recipes: High fat, low to moderate protein recipes?

[clackley]

I would question why you are interested in lowering protein? It is something that most people do because they cannot remain in ketosis otherwise but if you are in ketosis and are losing weight, why complicate things?

If you have a genuine stall (remember this is 6 wks. of no inches or lbs. lost), then it might be something to consider.

In terms of being 'calorie reduction in disguise' - no. As someone has already stated, if cutting carbs and protein, fat must increase and remember that fat is approx. 2x the calories per gram than the other 2 macro nutrients (carbs and protein). That is an important distinction to remember.

[BigRunner]

Originally Posted by clackley

I would question why you are interested in lowering protein? It is something that most people do because they cannot remain in ketosis otherwise but if you are in ketosis and are losing weight, why complicate things?

If you have a genuine stall (remember this is 6 wks. of no inches or lbs. lost), then it might be something to consider.

In terms of being 'calorie reduction in disguise' - no. As someone has already stated, if cutting carbs and protein, fat must increase and remember that fat is approx. 2x the calories per gram than the other 2 macro nutrients (carbs and protein). That is an important distinction to remember.

I don't think I have ever seen that information stated so eloquently.
Great post!

[synger]

Originally Posted by clackley

In terms of being 'calorie reduction in disguise' - no. As someone has already stated, if cutting carbs and protein, fat must increase and remember that fat is approx. 2x the calories per gram than the other 2 macro nutrients (carbs and protein). That is an important distinction to remember.

It can be calorie reduction, if you have a specific calorie amount you aim for.

I can eat 1400 calories in high-carb/low-fat, and be a ravenous monster.
I can eat 1400 calories in lower-carb/med-fat, and be sated but not lose.
I can eat 1400 calories in med-prot/high-fat, and be sated AND lose.

I tend to cycle between the last two, depending on what else is going on in my life (we tend to eat out fairly frequently, so it's sometimes hard to control the fat amount).

[clackley]

Originally Posted by synger

It can be calorie reduction, if you have a specific calorie amount you aim for.

I can eat 1400 calories in high-carb/low-fat, and be a ravenous monster.
I can eat 1400 calories in lower-carb/med-fat, and be sated but not lose.
I can eat 1400 calories in med-prot/high-fat, and be sated AND lose.

I tend to cycle between the last two, depending on what else is going on in my life (we tend to eat out fairly frequently, so it's sometimes hard to control the fat amount).

A great reminder that all calories are NOT equal!

Thank you Bigrunner!

[emel]

You can cut protein on LC two ways:

1) decrease the amount of protein you eat without adjusting carb and fat intake. This would be a form of calorie reduction.

2) decrease the amount of protein and eat more fat. This would be a form of adjusting your macronutrients, often done for the purpose of achieving a weight goal without giving up food quantity/satiation.
In other words, some people feel better and do better with weight loss if they eat less protein and more fat.

Ways to increase fat and decrease protein:
-instead of an 8 ounce steak, eat a 6 ounce steak with a pat of butter on it.
-include eggs cooked in butter on your menu.
-instead of 8 oz of chicken, have 6 oz of chicken with an ounce or two of cheese melted onto it.
-choose fatty meats. Eat the chicken skin.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Patkid

What I am asking for is a brief synopsis of HOW to cut protein on LC. I don't know what else to eat. Is it calorie cutting in disguise? But that doesn't make sense as you are supposed to eat high fat. Is it general reduction in volume of food~and the assumption that the fat will make you feel fuller?
Thanks, for any insight. I hate feeling dense.

The idea is to moderate protein if you are eating too much. Not because of protein calories but because there is no storage mechanism for protein so excess protein intake has to be dealt with by the body in a non-storage way.

Protein also produces a mild insulin response. So eating too much means your insulin levels are elevated from your normal level.

Excess protein can be converted to sugar which can be stored as fat.

Eating high fat is not an absolute. It is relative to the other two macros. And it is constrained by whatever your calorie goals are. Once your protein is right the fat is where you tweak calories up or down.

[Britt1975]

For those of you who eat this way, what is your average goal of fat: protein:carb ratios?

[emel]

Originally Posted by Britt1975

For those of you who eat this way, what is your average goal of fat: protein:carb ratios?

That's gonna vary wildly, Britt.
The nutritional ketosis folks have a forum. They do very low carbs, lowish protein, and high fat. Like 80% fat, 15% protein, 5% carbs.

The people on low carb who feel fuller and lose better on higher fats adjust fats to a level that makes them feel good while getting good weight loss results.
I don't really track anything but carbs. I stay under 20 net carbs and I eat stuff. I use olive oil and ranch on my salads. I cook with butter. I eat fatty meats. If I'm hungry, I eat a snack with protein and fat--maybe a piece of cold steak or a small bowl of egg salad or a a piece of chicken breast w/a piece of cheese and mayo.

So it depends on how far you want to take it, and what your goal is in doing it. The nutritional ketosis folks are very vigilant about keeping track of their percentages, and a lot of them get great results on their plans. Then there's other people, like me, who just recognize that sufficient fat keeps them full, satisfied, and better able to happily stay on-plan.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Britt1975

For those of you who eat this way, what is your average goal of fat: protein:carb ratios?

80/15/5 but depending on what I eat and calories I typically hit 75/18/7 or somewhere around there.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by reddarin

80/15/5 but depending on what I eat and calories I typically hit 75/18/7 or somewhere around there.

Just to be clear about my post, though, NK is not about % directly. It is about establishing protein grams, staying under 50g total carbs (less if your body dictates) and fat for the rest.

[Britt1975]

Thanks, Reddarin and Emel! That's what I was looking for. For the last two weeks my protein has been around 13-20% carbs have been around 5-7% and all the rest is fat.

I find that I'm happier, fuller and more energized than I have ever been while low carbing.

[reddarin]

Originally Posted by Britt1975

Thanks, Reddarin and Emel! That's what I was looking for. For the last two weeks my protein has been around 13-20% carbs have been around 5-7% and all the rest is fat.

I find that I'm happier, fuller and more energized than I have ever been while low carbing.

Be careful of percentages with your macros because it makes the calories very important.

For example:

A 20% protein macro at 1000 cals is only 50g of protein.

A 20% protein macro at 2000 cals is 100g.

So if you needed 75g... At 1000 cals you are getting too little and you will/might lose lean body mass. At 2000 cals you are getting too much and you will either stall or gain.

[Patkid]

Originally Posted by clackley

I would question why you are interested in lowering protein? It is something that most people do because they cannot remain in ketosis otherwise but if you are in ketosis and are losing weight, why complicate things?

If you have a genuine stall (remember this is 6 wks. of no inches or lbs. lost), then it might be something to consider.

In terms of being 'calorie reduction in disguise' - no. As someone has already stated, if cutting carbs and protein, fat must increase and remember that fat is approx. 2x the calories per gram than the other 2 macro nutrients (carbs and protein). That is an important distinction to remember.

Hi, Cathy..............as always, for me, the voice of reason.
I think I am interested in this due to my age. From what I have read it may be better than all that protein I eat currently for 'a woman of a certain age', lol.
But I like that idea of not messing around till I have to. I guess I am needlessly making things harder than they actually are.
I am so strongly a 'word' person that all the talk of percentages and grams and weighing and measuring get in the way of my understanding NK.
For now I will take a breath and see where induction (on my second week now) takes me.

Thank you to each of you for you input! I will be reading this over and over.

[Britt1975]

Originally Posted by reddarin

Be careful of percentages with your macros because it makes the calories very important.

For example:

A 20% protein macro at 1000 cals is only 50g of protein.

A 20% protein macro at 2000 cals is 100g.

So if you needed 75g... At 1000 cals you are getting too little and you will/might lose lean body mass. At 2000 cals you are getting too much and you will either stall or gain.

Protein grams are between 50 and 80 grams except for one day when I had 148 That was the day that I had eggs, chorizo and bacon for dinner and pulled pork for lunch. Won't be doing that again.

[emel]

Originally Posted by Britt1975

Protein grams are between 50 and 80 grams except for one day when I had 148 That was the day that I had eggs, chorizo and bacon for dinner and pulled pork for lunch. Won't be doing that again.

If those numbers represent a good eating style for you, you might want to look at the Eat Fat Get Thin program and the forum about it on this board. It isn't highly active, but there's some good info there. I was trying EFGT for awhile, but it came at a frustrating time in my life, so I didn't do it very well. Some nice folks over there, though.

[Avy]

The easiest way I've found to cut protein is to eat eggs for breakfast with cream, cheese, mayo etc, and to have an avocado at lunch time with sour cream, a salad, veggies etc. Really made a huge difference in the amount of protein I eat during the day, and a huge boost to the fat I consume. Also, some days I'll have a flax muffin with peanut butter, butter, or cream cheese. Those are my tricks.

[Britt1975]

Originally Posted by Avy

The easiest way I've found to cut protein is to eat eggs for breakfast with cream, cheese, mayo etc, and to have an avocado at lunch time with sour cream, a salad, veggies etc. Really made a huge difference in the amount of protein I eat during the day, and a huge boost to the fat I consume. Also, some days I'll have a flax muffin with peanut butter, butter, or cream cheese. Those are my tricks.

I love avocado for lunch for just that reason - plus it fills me up so fast and it lasts so long! I like to mash up and avocado and crumble in one very crispy strip of bacon - I get that meat taste, but not much protein. So yummy.

Originally Posted by emel

If those numbers represent a good eating style for you, you might want to look at the Eat Fat Get Thin program and the forum about it on this board. It isn't highly active, but there's some good info there. I was trying EFGT for awhile, but it came at a frustrating time in my life, so I didn't do it very well. Some nice folks over there, though.

Thanks for the suggestion - I'll look into that!

[han1cka]

Originally Posted by reddarin

The idea is to moderate protein if you are eating too much. Not because of protein calories but because there is no storage mechanism for protein so excess protein intake has to be dealt with by the body in a non-storage way.

Protein also produces a mild insulin response. So eating too much means your insulin levels are elevated from your normal level.

Excess protein can be converted to sugar which can be stored as fat.

Eating high fat is not an absolute. It is relative to the other two macros. And it is constrained by whatever your calorie goals are. Once your protein is right the fat is where you tweak calories up or down.