Low Carb Friends  
Netrition.com - Tools - Reviews - Faces - Recipes - Home


Go Back   Low Carb Friends > Main Lowcarb Lobby
Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-20-2013, 06:00 AM   #1
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 196
Gallery: Sting
Protein into fat explained

Been reading a bit about protein and according to some articles excess protein will turn into fat. Apparently around 0.8g per kg of body weights is not access but other articles i have read mention access protein will not turn into fat so just wondering if someone can explain it to me as it seems everyone has a different opinion.

Here is a article i just read

Excess Protein and Fat Storage – Q&A


Question: I have done a lot of study in diets and nutrition but to this day I have not been able to get any concrete evidence on what happens with excess protein in the body and I’m hoping you can help.
To make things simple, lets take a theoretical diet consisting of 5000 calories of pure protein for a 60kg, 175cm female.
Many people claim that excess protein will get wasted while others say that all excess calories eventually end up being stored as fat.
I have done my own research on the breakdown of protein into amino acids and I understood it as: some of the amino acids are wasted while others will go through the cycle of conversion and will still be used by the body for energy.
Answer: Ok, first things first. The example given above is absurdly non-physiological. The satiating power of protein would make such a high protein consumption impossible. That is, 5000 calories of pure protein is 1250 grams of pure protein. Can’t be done. Beyond that, while the biochemical pathways for the conversion of protein to fat do exist in humans, the likelihood of it ever happening in any but the most absurdly non-physiological circumstances are effectively nil.
Let me put this in perspective. Despite a lot of claims to the contrary, the actual conversion of carbohydrate to fat in humans under normal dietary conditions is small approaching insignificant (a topic I discussed at least briefly in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation).
Make no mistake, the conversion of carbs to fat (a process called de-novo lipogenesis or DNL) can happen but the requirements for it to happen significantly are fairly rare in humans under most conditions (to discuss this in detail would require a full article, interested readers can search Medline for work by Hellerstein or Acheson on the topic).
At least one of those is when daily carbohydrate intake is just massive, fulfilling over 100% of the daily maintenance energy requirements. And only then when muscle glycogen is full. For an average sized male you’re looking at 700-900 grams of carbohydrate daily for multiple days running.
Which means that the odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of ‘fat’) isn’t one of them.
I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.
What will happen, as discussed in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation. is that amino acid oxidation (burning for energy) will go up somewhat although, as discussed in that article, it’s a slow process and isn’t complete.
So, as noted above, while the pathway exists for protein to be stored as fat, and folks will continue to claim that ‘excess protein just turns to fat’, it’s really just not going to happen under any sort of real-world situation. Certainly we can dream up odd theoretical situations where it might but those won’t apply to 99.9% of real-world situations.
Sting is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old 01-20-2013, 06:14 AM   #2
Major LCF Poster!
 
Patkid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Rockford IL
Posts: 1,314
Gallery: Patkid
Stats: 199/160.8/165
WOE: JUDDD
Start Date: Feb. 3, 2014
Measuring/eating protein has always confused me. I don't understand NK. I am looking forward to reading the comments on your post.
Patkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 07:24 AM   #3
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,198
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
I have to say that I cannot quite follow what the authors' point is when speaking about what constitutes 'excess protein'.

Protein requirements for each and every person varies widely. Some people become very adept at converting protein to glucose. This fact means that too much protein can and does takes some people out of ketosis despite eating very low carb.

This does not mean that excess protein is making a 'straight line' to fat accumulation. It does mean that excess protein can set up an environment for excess glucose in reference to a ketogenic diet.
clackley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 01:38 PM   #4
.
 
ravenrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: California
Posts: 9,648
Gallery: ravenrose
Stats: lost 130 lb so far, and miles to go before I sleep
WOE: low carb controlled calorie
Start Date: June, 2009
proteins are all composed of amino acids. some amino acids are "glucogenic" and can be converted into glucose, others can be converted to fat under some circumstances. I can't find what they are called right now. sorry. this means converted to fat and then DIGESTED as fat to use used for energy, etc.

this is entirely different though than having excess "food energy" in your body to be converted to "storage fat" on you, right?

as I understand it, excess protein, meaning extra amino acids that aren't needed for all your metabolic/cellular needs, are oxidized to urea and carbon dioxide as a source of energy. I guess that means you would use those and therefore not need the same amount of other nutrients as if you didn't have them to use.
__________________
Often I don't come back to read threads where I've posted. If you want me to see something, please send me a private message. Thanks!
ravenrose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 06:20 PM   #5
Senior LCF Member
 
Lioness0455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 266
Gallery: Lioness0455
Stats: 256.5/170/125
Start Date: 1/3/07
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
Been reading a bit about protein and according to some articles excess protein will turn into fat. Apparently around 0.8g per kg of body weights is not access but other articles i have read mention access protein will not turn into fat so just wondering if someone can explain it to me as it seems everyone has a different opinion.

Here is a article i just read

Excess Protein and Fat Storage – Q&A

Question: I have done a lot of study in diets and nutrition but to this day I have not been able to get any concrete evidence on what happens with excess protein in the body and I’m hoping you can help.
To make things simple, lets take a theoretical diet consisting of 5000 calories of pure protein for a 60kg, 175cm female.
Many people claim that excess protein will get wasted while others say that all excess calories eventually end up being stored as fat.
I have done my own research on the breakdown of protein into amino acids and I understood it as: some of the amino acids are wasted while others will go through the cycle of conversion and will still be used by the body for energy.
Answer: Ok, first things first. The example given above is absurdly non-physiological. The satiating power of protein would make such a high protein consumption impossible. That is, 5000 calories of pure protein is 1250 grams of pure protein. Can’t be done. Beyond that, while the biochemical pathways for the conversion of protein to fat do exist in humans, the likelihood of it ever happening in any but the most absurdly non-physiological circumstances are effectively nil.
Let me put this in perspective. Despite a lot of claims to the contrary, the actual conversion of carbohydrate to fat in humans under normal dietary conditions is small approaching insignificant (a topic I discussed at least briefly in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation).
Make no mistake, the conversion of carbs to fat (a process called de-novo lipogenesis or DNL) can happen but the requirements for it to happen significantly are fairly rare in humans under most conditions (to discuss this in detail would require a full article, interested readers can search Medline for work by Hellerstein or Acheson on the topic).
At least one of those is when daily carbohydrate intake is just massive, fulfilling over 100% of the daily maintenance energy requirements. And only then when muscle glycogen is full. For an average sized male you’re looking at 700-900 grams of carbohydrate daily for multiple days running.
Which means that the odds of protein being converted to fat in any quantitatively meaningful fashion is simply not going to happen. Certain amino acids are processed to a great degree in the liver (as I discuss in The Protein Book) and this can produce glucose, ketones and a few other things. But triglycerides (the storage form of ‘fat’) isn’t one of them.
I imagine that if protein were going to be converted to fat, it would first have to be converted to glucose and only if the amount produced were then in excess of daily maintenance requirements would there be conversion to fat. But as noted above, this simply isn’t going to happen under any even reasonably normal circumstances. No human could eat enough protein on a daily basis for it to occur.
What will happen, as discussed in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation. is that amino acid oxidation (burning for energy) will go up somewhat although, as discussed in that article, it’s a slow process and isn’t complete.
So, as noted above, while the pathway exists for protein to be stored as fat, and folks will continue to claim that ‘excess protein just turns to fat’, it’s really just not going to happen under any sort of real-world situation. Certainly we can dream up odd theoretical situations where it might but those won’t apply to 99.9% of real-world situations.
As this answer from Lyle McDonald says, protein doesn't turn into fat under normal conditions. It's broken down into amino acids which is then used to repair or build body structures. Some is converted by the liver into glucose and used by the body or brain because parts of the brain can only use glucose.

"IF" the body were to make more glucose than it needed for fuel, Lyle says that any excess calories consumed that day would be stored in your fat cells.

But protein sources are not just protein. They also contain a portion of fat which is always stored right after you eat it, due to the insulin release the body produces in order to get the amino acids into your body's cells. Once the amino acids are processed, your insulin level returns to normal and the stored fats are then mobilized and used for energy.

People who claim that protein makes you fat most likely have strong insulin resistance. Their insulin levels don't return to normal after eating large amounts of protein. The glucose made from the protein causes an insulin release, and their insulin levels stay high longer than normal, interfering with fat mobilization.

These people experience weight loss when they cut down on protein foods, but not because protein makes you fat. It's because less protein is keeping their insulin levels lower, so their body is able to use the fat calories in the protein foods it stored for fuel.
__________________
Vickie Ewell
Kickin' Carb Clutter
Lioness0455 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 07:55 PM   #6
Senior LCF Member
 
goldgirl24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 70
Gallery: goldgirl24
WOE: LC, kinda induction
Start Date: August 2012
I believe Dr. Atkins touched on this topic briefly in DANDR.
goldgirl24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 04:54 AM   #7
Major LCF Poster!
 
Emily-D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,197
Gallery: Emily-D
Stats: obese/healthy weight
WOE: 1992 Atkins (no grains, no soy)
Start Date: 3/1/04, Restart 4/22/10
Great information, Lioness. Thanks for posting.
Emily-D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 05:54 AM   #8
Way too much time on my hands!
 
emel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 17,635
Gallery: emel
Stats: 179.4/158.8/130ish
WOE: Atkins OWL/NK hybrid
RE: protein sources and their fat content.

Mark Sisson says that as long as the protein source is lean and clean, the body can thrive on much higher levels of protein than the current RDA:

Dear Mark: Pondering Protein | Mark's Daily Apple
Quote:
Protein should be lean and clean, as I always say: low in fat and free (or as free as possible) from the toxins of our modern food supply: pollutants (like dioxin in dairy), nitrites, growth hormones, antibiotics, pesticides from feed, and chemical sanitizers or irradiation used in processing. A healthy diet, by definition, means plenty of vegetables, fruits and varied protein sources such as eggs, fish, and a variety meats. Dairy products also contain protein, but I suggest limiting dairy and focusing on the above foods as the staples of a healthy diet.

First, let’s look at what conventional recommendations are. The current U.S. RDA for protein is 63 grams a day for the average sized male, or for your individual RDA, 0.80 g/kg/day (grams of protein per kilogram of your weight per day). Many nutritionists suggest that athletes and very active people can maintain their muscle mass at 1.0 g/kg/day. Most nutritionists say protein should constitute no more than 20% of your calories each day.

Now I’ll give you my perspective.

Based on latest research findings and in the context of the Primal eating strategy I talk about on the site, men and women can and do thrive on higher than conventional protein diets. Humans evolved with a high protein diet. Experts from the Medical Research Council at the University of College London estimate that, while the typical Western diet today is composed of 49% carbs, 35% fats and 16% protein, the diet of traditional hunter-gatherer populations included twice the protein intake.

Current study of tribal populations that maintain traditional diets shows that high protein, fruit and vegetable rich (virtually no carb and few unhealthy fats) “hunter gatherer” diets seem to protect against the “diseases of wealth” we experience in the developed world (i.e. many forms of heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers, etc.).

In keeping with this research, I don’t believe people need to limit their protein intake to 20% of their daily calories. The upper limit of protein recommendations is hotly contested in all circles. I, myself, try to get at least 1 gram per pound of body weight per day (165). I can survive on less, but I’m all about maintaining my lean mass. You can only do that with protein, and I don’t believe the current RDA allows for that, especially in active individuals.

One of the most common critiques links higher protein diets to impaired kidney function. Recent research suggests, however, that people without prior or developing kidney or liver impairment do not experience any kidney or liver issues with a higher protein intake (1.3 g/kg/day). People most at risk for this kind of kidney stress include those who have a personal or family history of kidney or liver problems or those who have high blood pressure or diabetes. (Because developing kidney and liver problems don’t always have obvious symptoms, it’s important for your doctor to know your protein intake exceeds conventional recommendations.) People with liver or kidney problems, doctors warn, are less able to process and excrete the waste products (mostly nitrogen left over from amino acid breakdown) that are produced when the body metabolizes protein.

I would repeat here that it’s important that you feed your body the “cleanest” protein you can. Animal products, meat and fish in particular, are the most protein-rich options, and they contain vital omega-3s. However, they also can carry the heaviest “toxic” burden of our modern food supply. These toxins are powerful and plentiful enough over time to put a strain on anyone’s body – including liver and kidneys. Choose organic, grass-fed meat and poultry whenever possible, and go for wild instead of farmed fish.
emel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:27 AM   #9
Blabbermouth!!!
 
reddarin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,460
Gallery: reddarin
Stats: 6' 47y/o 265/193/170
WOE: NK
Start Date: Aug 13, 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by emel View Post
RE: protein sources and their fat content.

Mark Sisson says that as long as the protein source is lean and clean, the body can thrive on much higher levels of protein than the current RDA:

Quote:
(snip)First, let’s look at what conventional recommendations are. The current U.S. RDA for protein is 63 grams a day for the average sized male, or for your individual RDA, 0.80 g/kg/day (grams of protein per kilogram of your weight per day)(snip)
Interesting. When I googled the RDA for protein months ago it just gave a blanket number, like 45 for women and 55 for men, but no formula.

But that .8g/kg makes a lot of sense because Dr. Phinney said that for an LC person .8 was not enough protein. He recommends 1.5g to 2.0g per kg of [ideal] weight.
reddarin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:35 AM   #10
Major LCF Poster!
 
synger's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,404
Gallery: synger
Stats: Start: 310 Current: 259
WOE: Calorie and carb counting, IR Diet framework
Start Date: IR/PCOS: Dx pre-diabetic 3/2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lioness0455 View Post
As this answer from Lyle McDonald says, protein doesn't turn into fat under normal conditions. It's broken down into amino acids which is then used to repair or build body structures. Some is converted by the liver into glucose and used by the body or brain because parts of the brain can only use glucose.

"IF" the body were to make more glucose than it needed for fuel, Lyle says that any excess calories consumed that day would be stored in your fat cells.

But protein sources are not just protein. They also contain a portion of fat which is always stored right after you eat it, due to the insulin release the body produces in order to get the amino acids into your body's cells. Once the amino acids are processed, your insulin level returns to normal and the stored fats are then mobilized and used for energy.

People who claim that protein makes you fat most likely have strong insulin resistance. Their insulin levels don't return to normal after eating large amounts of protein. The glucose made from the protein causes an insulin release, and their insulin levels stay high longer than normal, interfering with fat mobilization.

These people experience weight loss when they cut down on protein foods, but not because protein makes you fat. It's because less protein is keeping their insulin levels lower, so their body is able to use the fat calories in the protein foods it stored for fuel.
Thank you for this answer. There are indeed some very insulin-resistant people, and I think that they are often the ones who find they need to lower their protein and subsequently raise their fat.
synger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:46 AM   #11
Major LCF Poster!
 
avid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: treasure coast
Posts: 1,131
Gallery: avid
Stats: 180/134/131...
WOE: Lotsa veggies and LC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting View Post
Let me put this in perspective. Despite a lot of claims to the contrary, the actual conversion of carbohydrate to fat in humans under normal dietary conditions is small approaching insignificant (a topic I discussed at least briefly in Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation).
Make no mistake, the conversion of carbs to fat (a process called de-novo lipogenesis or DNL) can happen but the requirements for it to happen significantly are fairly rare in humans under most conditions (to discuss this in detail would require a full article, interested readers can search Medline for work by Hellerstein or Acheson on the topic).
At least one of those is when daily carbohydrate intake is just massive, fulfilling over 100% of the daily maintenance energy requirements. And only then when muscle glycogen is full. For an average sized male you’re looking at 700-900 grams of carbohydrate daily for multiple days running.

I don't know about any of y'all, but it did not take "massive amounts" of carbs in my diet to convert to fat.
And if carbs don't easily convert to fat....and protein doesn't easily convert to fat then that only leads fat converting to fat. Those of us who have lost many pounds of fat eating a high fat diet know this to be nonesense.
Whenever I see an article by an "expert" whose report completely contradicts my personal experience, I reject EVERYTHING that 'expert' has to say.
avid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 07:52 AM   #12
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,198
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
Claiming that eating fat makes one fat makes as much sense as saying that eating money makes one rich.
clackley is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:31 AM.


Copyright ©1999-2014 Friends Forums LLC. All rights reserved. - Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
LowCarbFriends® is a registered mark of Friends Forums, LLC.