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Spanilingo 09-09-2012 03:47 PM

Fiber opinion
 
Arent the amounts to shoot for ridiculously high ??? Without using supplements, is there ANY natural way to really eat so much?.

Ok so I don't really pay too much attention to fiber. I eat what I eat in the amounts that are right for my size and hunger.

That being said... I eat well. I eat veggies, meats , eggs , some fruit and occasionally grains (because I desire them not for health benefits). I don't think I EVER eat the "minimum" amount of fiber. I just don't think I could actually EAT as many veggies and grains as it would take to eat 25-30 grms of fiber a day!!!!

I paid attention to what I eat today and I would have to gorge myself on veggies to eat enough.

Opinions? Thoughts?

Hagrid's Dad 09-09-2012 09:01 PM

As long as your... *ahem* "digestive processes"... are all normal, I'd guess you're getting enough fiber for you. No reason to focus on the numbers that someone else with a different diet might need.

August Moon 09-09-2012 09:18 PM

I don't feel right if I don't have dietary fiber. I feel sickly and slo-mo sluggish without it. I usually get my fiber from two slices of Julian Bakery Smart Carb bread. I know not everyone can do bread foods. But I'll take fiber wherever I can get it.

Coconut flour is high in fiber (if you ever use it).

picklepete 09-09-2012 10:14 PM

I don't know how fiber came to be marketed as this magical nutrient that protects your heart from everything (since it isn't absorbed), but in general I just consider it a signifier that I'm eating a whole vegetable, nut, or fruit which is good. I don't pursue it for its own sake.

Auntie Em 09-10-2012 10:13 AM

Spanilingo, are you wanting to eat fiber for elimination or for some other purpose?

There are some good articles on fiber at the Weston A. Price foundation, and at Barry Groves' site, Second Opinions. They are easy to find using the search functions.

I find that if I eat enough fat, drink enough water, exercise enough, rest and sleep well, and also take enough magnesium, that my elimination is just fine.

Fiber is cellulose, which is eaten by the bacteria in the intestines. They eat the fiber.

Dr. Richard Bernstein explains in his book, The Diabetes Solution, how fiber came to be promoted.

Here is the text from the 2007 edition of his book, taken from his website, diabetes-book:

WHAT ABOUT DIETARY FIBER?

“Fiber” is a general term that has come to refer to the undigestible portion of many vegetables and fruits. Some vegetable fibers, such as guar and pectin, are soluble in water. Another type of fiber, which some of us call roughage, is not water soluble. Both types appear to affect the movement of food through the gut (soluble fiber slows processing in the upper digestive tract, while insoluble fiber speeds digestion farther down). Certain insoluble fiber products, such as psyllium, have long been used as laxatives. Consumption of large amounts of dietary fiber is usually unpleasant, because both types can cause abdominal discomfort, diarrhea, and flatulence. Sources of insoluble fiber include most salad vegetables. Soluble fiber is found in many beans, such as garbanzos, and in certain fruits, such as apples.

I first learned of attempts at using fiber as an adjunct to the treatment of diabetes about thirty years ago.At that time, Dr.David Jenkins, in England, reported that guar gum, when added to bread, could reduce the maximum postprandial blood sugar rise from an entire meal by 36 percent in diabetic subjects. This was interesting for several reasons. First of all, the discovery occurred at a time when few new approaches to controlling blood sugar were appearing in the medical literature. Second, I missed the high-carbohydrate foods I had given up, and hoped I might possibly reinstate some. I managed to track down a supplier of powdered guar gum, and placed a considerable amount into a folded slice of bread. I knew how much a slice of bread would affect my blood sugar, and so as
an experiment, I used the same amount of guar gum that Dr. Jenkins had used, and then ate the concoction on an empty stomach. The chore was difficult, because once moistened by my saliva, the guar gum stuck to my palate and was difficult to swallow. I did not find any change in the subsequent blood sugar increase. Despite the unpleasantness of choking down powdered guar gum (which is often used in commercial products such as ice cream as a thickener), I repeated this experiment on two more occasions, with the same result. Subsequently, some investigators have announced results similar to those of Dr. Jenkins, yet other researchers have found no effect on postprandial blood sugar. In any event, a reduction of postprandial blood sugar increase by only 36 percent really isn’t adequate for our purpose, since we’re shooting for the same blood sugars as nondiabetics. This means virtually no rise after eating.

Dr. Jenkins also discovered, however, that the chronic use of guar gum resulted in a reduction of serum cholesterol levels. This is probably related to the considerable recirculation of cholesterol through the gut. The liver secretes cholesterol into bile, which is released into the upper intestine. This cholesterol is later absorbed lower in the intestines, and eventually reappears in the blood. Guar binds the cholesterol in the intestines, so that rather than being absorbed, it appears in the stool.

In the light of these very interesting results, other researchers studied the effect of foods (usually beans) containing other soluble forms of fiber.When beans were substituted for faster-acting forms of carbohydrate, postprandial blood sugars in diabetics increased more slowly, and the peaks were even slightly reduced. Serum cholesterol levels were also reduced by about 15 percent. But subsequent studies, reported in 1990, have uncovered flaws in the original reports, casting serious doubt upon any direct effect of these foods upon serum lipids. In any event, postprandial blood sugars of diabetics were never normalized by
such diets.

Many popular articles and books have appeared advocating “highfiber” diets for everyone—not just diabetics. Somehow, “fiber” came to mean all fiber, not just soluble fiber, even though the only viable studies had utilized such products as guar gum and beans.

In my experience, reduction of dietary carbohydrate is far more effective in preventing blood sugar increases after meals. The lower blood sugars, in turn, bring about improved lipid profiles. It is true, however, that low-carbohydrate vegetables are usually composed mostly of insoluble fiber and therefore contain far less digestible carbohydrate than starchy vegetables. Thus if we compare fiber to starch, there is great value in “high fiber.”

Another food to join the high-fiber trend is oat bran. This has gotten a lot of play in the popular press. A patient of mine started substituting oat bran muffins for protein in her diet. Before she started, her HgbA1C (see Chapter 2) was within the normal range and her ratio of total cholesterol to HDL was very low (meaning her cardiac risk ratio was low). After three months on oat bran, her HgbA1C became elevated and her cholesterol-to-HDL ratio nearly doubled. I tried one of her tiny oat bran muffins after first injecting 3 units of fast-acting insulin (as much as I use for an entire meal). After 3 hours, my blood
sugar went up by about 100 mg/dl, to 190 mg/dl. This illustrates the adverse effect that most oat bran preparations can have upon blood sugar. This is because most such preparations contain flour. On the other hand, I find that certain bran products, such as the bran crackers listed in Chapter 10, raise blood sugar very little.Unlike most packaged bran products, they contain mostly bran and little flour. They therefore have very little digestible carbohydrate. You can perform
similar experiments yourself. Just use your blood glucose meter.

Beware of commercial “high-fiber” products that promise cholesterol reduction. If they contain carbohydrate, they must at least be counted in your meal plan and will probably render little or no improvement in your lipid profile.

Fiber, like carbohydrate, is not essential for a healthy life. Just look at the Eskimos and other hunting populations that survive almost exclusively on protein and fat, and don’t develop cardiac or circulatory diseases.*

* As the first edition of this book was going to press, a report appeared entitled “Dietary Fiber, Glycemic Load, and Risk of Non-Insulin-Dependent Diabetes in Women” (Jnl Amer Med Assoc 1997; 277:472–477). This study of 65,173 nurses and former nurses found a strong association between diets high in starch, flour, and sweet foods and the development of type 2 diabetes. Furthermore, consumption of minimally refined grain (such as bran without flour) lowered this risk. The combination of high glycemic foods and low intake of unrefined insoluble fiber was associated with a 2.5-fold higher incidence of diabetes. If you remember our discussion of beta cell burnout (pages 39–42), this should come as no surprise.


Hope this helps some. :)

I enjoy eating a low fiber diet, and enjoy having my food not irritate my stomach or intestines.

Spanilingo 09-10-2012 01:57 PM

Thanks everyone . I don't have any special issues but never really thought about fiber before... Upon paying attention to the guidelins, they just seem unnatural to me....

mimivac 09-10-2012 02:08 PM

When I was on a nutritionist-monitored very low fat diet, I was instructed to eat lots of breakfast cereal to get the fiber in. Didn't feel that natural to me, either.

ravenrose 09-11-2012 09:32 AM

many of us use a LOT of very high fiber items low carbing. flax meal, oat fiber (not bran,) guar, xanthan, glucommanan, even nuts, in addition to the small quantities of vegetables allowed.

Naples11 09-11-2012 09:44 AM

Diversity!
 
What's great about this board is the high level of diversity within LC food plans. I don't eat any fiber on a daily basis, and for the first time in my life my digestive system is fantastic. I'm no longer bloated and no longer have trouble being "regular." As long as I keep my fats up, it's smooth sailing.

I strongly recommend reading "Fiber Menace" if you haven't already. :shake:

reddarin 09-11-2012 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auntie Em (Post 15933490)
Fiber, like carbohydrate, is not essential for a healthy life. Just look at the Eskimos and other hunting populations that survive almost exclusively on protein and fat, and donít develop cardiac or circulatory diseases

Great post! I haven't gone out of my way to eat fiber for the last year. Just whatever I get from the few veggies I eat.

Naples11 09-11-2012 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddarin (Post 15936473)
Great post! I haven't gone out of my way to eat fiber for the last year. Just whatever I get from the few veggies I eat.

I agree, Auntie Em's posts are gems! :goodpost:

flux 01-12-2013 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naples11 (Post 15936328)
What's great about this board is the high level of diversity within LC food plans. I don't eat any fiber on a daily basis, and for the first time in my life my digestive system is fantastic. I'm no longer bloated and no longer have trouble being "regular." As long as I keep my fats up, it's smooth sailing.

I strongly recommend reading "Fiber Menace" if you haven't already. :shake:

I agree with you Naples11. :goodpost: I am also on zero fibre.

I was admitted to hospital with diverticulitis and I came across "Fiber Menace" when lookng for what the cause could be. I also strongly recommend reading it. It has changed my life for the better. Every one should do a search for and read "Fiber Menace" I only wish that I came accross this sooner. I wouldn't of ended up with diverticulitis in the first place.

I took a leap of faith when I went on a LC/HF diet, because it was against all the medical advice. I have taken the same leap of faith with an extremely low to zero fibre diet, because after what I have read it makes sense to me in the same way LC/HF made sense to me back then.

Good luck

Phranquie 01-12-2013 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auntie Em (Post 15933490)
Fiber, like carbohydrate, is not essential for a healthy life. Just look at the Eskimos and other hunting populations that survive almost exclusively on protein and fat, and donít develop cardiac or circulatory diseases.*

Good post, especially this part which makes so much sense.

jem51 01-12-2013 09:43 AM

This is very individual.

Even if you read Groves (who I love) and Fiber Menace, it doesn't mean it will fit.

Some feel better w fiber and some not so much.

If you are one who does, the list Ravenrose gave are good LC sources.

Feeling good tops my list and I will do whatever it takes no matter what I read.

metqa 01-12-2013 10:17 AM

Fiber , as a type of carbohydrate, is often used as a vehicle or replacement on a lower carb dier, for the carbs that would digest into glucose. If you were foraging in the woods and plains for food, you would probably eat more chaff and seed coating because you are not able to polish or process that fiber away. You would also be chewing a lot longer or it would come out whole in the end. Fiber is not really a health food in as much as the benefits come from mechanical action and bacterial action on the fiber itself. I would use some fibers to make a substitute for high carb meal only because the fiber would not be digested, solely for the purpose of texture and delivery does it have much value to me. I personally don't take fiber supps regularly ( I have them) but then I also have regular BM's and if I did not, I'd take Magnesium before fiber because if I were blocked, I wouldn't want to add more roughage to the blockage, and magnesium compared to soluble fiber gives a similar effect with benefits of being an essential mineral.

MaryMary 01-12-2013 10:25 AM

This discussion is interesting. I get 30-35 grams of fiber a day. I have a fruit with my breakfast protein. A cooked vegetable and a salad w/ dressing with lunch protein, and the same at supper with a slightly larger salad w/ dressing. I used to have an oz of wheat germ at supper but stopped that after reading 'Wheat Belly". I do have TVP and soy milk which has a little fiber as well. But I am not a vegetarian. Tried that and it didn't work for me.

I have no problems with my daily constitutional. For me it is just part of my low carb program as I near my goal. I am looking for balance in foods without the hurdles that eating sugar and grain cause.

biancasteeplechase 01-12-2013 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by picklepete (Post 15932424)
I don't know how fiber came to be marketed as this magical nutrient that protects your heart from everything (since it isn't absorbed), but in general I just consider it a signifier that I'm eating a whole vegetable, nut, or fruit which is good. I don't pursue it for its own sake.

Gary Taubes's Good Calories, Bad Calories tells in detail how this happened. Basically, scientists knew that when various communities stopped eating their traditional diets and started eating a more Western diet, lots of health problems appeared. Initially, this was blamed on the refined carbohydrates ... but then one scientist suggested that the problem wasn't the sugar and flour, it was what was taken out (i.e., fiber).

Now, it's certainly worth testing whether adding fiber reduced the rates of those diseases - by seeing if disease rates go down in people who eat more fiber, for example. The catch, though, is that the testing showed that the only thing fiber can help with is constipation.

Unfortunately the whole "fiber is good" thing kept being repeated even after it was shown to be false. Like a lot of other nutritional advice ...

biancasteeplechase 01-12-2013 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naples11 (Post 15936328)
What's great about this board is the high level of diversity within LC food plans. I don't eat any fiber on a daily basis, and for the first time in my life my digestive system is fantastic. I'm no longer bloated and no longer have trouble being "regular." As long as I keep my fats up, it's smooth sailing.

I strongly recommend reading "Fiber Menace" if you haven't already. :shake:

I had the same problem ever since childhood, and I'd dutifully tried eating more vegetables (I was even vegan for a while), eating All-Bran for breakfast even though it tasted like something out of a pencil sharpener, guzzling water all day ... I could not have been more shocked to find that going low-carb, and getting rid of the flour and sugar, completely solved the whole problem for me. (And yet I don't recall EVER seeing this suggested!)

rubidoux 01-12-2013 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naples11 (Post 15936328)
What's great about this board is the high level of diversity within LC food plans. I don't eat any fiber on a daily basis, and for the first time in my life my digestive system is fantastic. I'm no longer bloated and no longer have trouble being "regular." As long as I keep my fats up, it's smooth sailing.

I strongly recommend reading "Fiber Menace" if you haven't already. :shake:

Same here. Most days my fiber intake is zero. Lately I have added a handful of romain just for a change of pace, but if anything the fiber worries me. My digestion has been great eating LFHC w no fiber whatsoever.

Punkin 01-12-2013 11:31 AM

I have a problem with insulin spiking and soluble fiber helps slow down the digestive process and decreases the amount of spiking I experience. I find though that I have to stick to the recommended daily amount, if I use to much I get terrible bloating and pressure in my system. But if I use the right amount I feel great. I don't think you need to hit the recommended amount though if everything is working ok. Aren't there some civilizations that survive or survived mostly on meat and fat? How much fiber would they get in their diet realistically?

Taxbane 01-12-2013 11:53 AM

Additionally, I think part of the hype about fiber is the bulkability it lends to food, so you feel like your full physically, in an attempt to replace accustomed portion sizes with undigestible mass - kinda like "whole grains".

flux 01-13-2013 08:23 AM

This was an interesting read about fibre.

Dietary Fiber Theory. Scientific Proof Fiber in the Diet is Unhealthy.

theredhead 01-13-2013 10:08 AM

Flux, thanks for the link. I just spent quite awhile reading through it and some other pages. It confirms a lot of what my own instincts have told me for years.


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