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Old 06-24-2012, 08:04 AM   #1
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Dr. Steve Phinney on the subject of nutritional ketosis clarifies the protein issue..

I think this is perhaps one of the more common stumbling blocks for those on a low carb woe. In a nutshell - too much protein.

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Old 06-24-2012, 10:11 AM   #2
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Thanks for posting this. I will watch tomorrow morning when no one (DH) is around to bug me!

Trying to figure out how much protein is "enough" has been a big problem for me. I've used online and published calculators and come up with amounts from 66g to 85g. I suspect the amount I should be eating is probably about 55-60g.

I do know that, for me, amounts over about 12oz (72g) do cause an increase in my blood glucose level.
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:24 AM   #3
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Don't fear the protein, people. In his example of eating 1400 calories from protein, that is the approximate equivalent of 3 pounds of meat. Anybody here come close to 3lbs of meat in a day? I know I don't. Or stated in grams, 350 grams of protein equals 1400 calories. I aim for 100 grams of protein a day and many days I don't get that high.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:37 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by nanberrycritter View Post
Don't fear the protein, people. In his example of eating 1400 calories from protein, that is the approximate equivalent of 3 pounds of meat. Anybody here come close to 3lbs of meat in a day? I know I don't. Or stated in grams, 350 grams of protein equals 1400 calories. I aim for 100 grams of protein a day and many days I don't get that high.
Right you are Nan! His example was a excessive amount and most people would never come close to consuming that amount. But as we all have learned, we are all quite different for our tolerances towards the 3 micro nutrients and I think it is something important to consider - particularly if weight loss is not happening for a length of time and the benefits of ketosis (i.e. appetite suppression) are not happening.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:44 AM   #5
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Dr. Eades always cautions that the danger is insufficient protein when low carbing which can lead to excessive muscle loss. Personally, I have trouble managing my daily requirement, which is about 70g.

I was more interested in Dr. Phinney's comment that it's best to remain ketogenic indefinitely. My own CCL is only about 25g, and I'm comfortable with eating at that level, but I'd read an article by a doctor who worked with Dr. A (this was several years ago), and he advocated going out of ketosis every 6-8 weeks (by eating about 150g carbs in a single day). I've been doing that, and now I'm wondering whether I should not bother with that because Dr. Phinney seems to have stayed in ketosis for 6 years straight with no ill effects.

It's difficult to know what's best, but I've never seen any specific benefit to going out of ketosis as I have been doing regularly.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:55 AM   #6
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The suggestion for protein is 'moderate' and that will mean different amounts for different people at different stages of weight loss. The suggestion is not for low protein at all and that is an important distinction. As Leo points out, not enough protein will go to muscle loss. One of the great things about Dr. Phinney is that he has done a lot of work in the ketosis/exercise area and has some fantastic knowledge and understanding of how all this works.

Dr. Phinney also talks about the number of carb gram to achieve ketosis as something under 50g. For me, 50 g is way too much and I need to restrict mine to about 25 or under. That is an individual difference as well.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:32 PM   #7
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Very interesting! Especially for people who seek or are on Ketogenic LC diets.

I notice with these studies that they are focused on optimal human diets as opposed to weight loss diets. Many people have referred to the studies on the Inuit, the Masai and other meat eating cultures in regards to what one needs to maintain health. What are "acceptable" or "preferred" diets for humans. I am pretty interested in learning more about how they measured the health of these to groups (i think someone gave me a link the other day) and the comparison to other indigenous groups who evolved while eating different foods.

I am curious though how these studies relate to weight loss. In theory, I suppose they are optimal diets for man. For maintaining a normal weight AND for putting on weight when needed. I am assuming that the inuits were not interested in weight loss but in survival and HOLDING onto weight. They needed to hold onto weight to maintain their health.

So if a high animal fat diet allowed you hold onto weight and maintain your health, how does that translate to someone who wants to lose weight to the extent we want to lose weight. I am guessing it will only take you so far. It seems like the focus of these studies is more about health than weight loss.

I have seen a couple of interviews on Native American tribes whose main food source was the ACORN. Pretty similar findings. If anyone knows of a good source for this let me know!

Thanks for this. He is good!
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:38 PM   #8
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This was interesting but one sure how one could eat 70% in fat yet be low protein-any ideas? He said ate olive oil etc but what quantity would you need to take? Would avocado oil be ok?
I could not catch the name of his book, did anyone else?
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
I was more interested in Dr. Phinney's comment that it's best to remain ketogenic indefinitely.
I'm a believer in self-experimentation. If you can maintain a good weight with a greater amount of carbs than you needed when losing, and your health issues are good, I'm not convinced there is a reason to stay in ketosis. I am conducting that experiment for myself now.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:14 PM   #10
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I didn't catch the name of his book either gonna have to search and see what I can find. Very interesting video thanks clackley for posting it.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:30 PM   #11
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Phinney is one of the more thoughtful LC gurus. He's honest in pointing out that high-fat intake is NOT necessary when dieting. Our bodies call upon our OWN fat stores for fat breakdown. Thus a high-protein, low-fat program like Stillman works extremely well. Don't pay attention to the oft-voiced mantra here that you "have to" up your fat while dieting; it's a MYTH, and Phinney is honest enough to admit it.............

Good Luck,
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Old 06-24-2012, 02:15 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Abby View Post
Phinney is one of the more thoughtful LC gurus. He's honest in pointing out that high-fat intake is NOT necessary when dieting. Our bodies call upon our OWN fat stores for fat breakdown. Thus a high-protein, low-fat program like Stillman works extremely well. Don't pay attention to the oft-voiced mantra here that you "have to" up your fat while dieting; it's a MYTH, and Phinney is honest enough to admit it.............

Good Luck,
You are interpreting his information to be 'low fat'???? That is some pretty 'creative listening'.
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:41 PM   #13
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Thanks for posting this Cathy!
I have seen it before but I really needed a refresher course.
I went back and reread Chapter 16, (The importance of dietary fat in long-term
maintenance) in his book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living.
Volek and Phinney make some very good points in that chapter.
Even though I am far away from maintenance I am convinced that I need try to keep my proteins moderate and increase fat intake.
However I am finding this is not as easy to do as you might think.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:01 AM   #14
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Thanks for posting this Cathy!
I have seen it before but I really needed a refresher course.
I went back and reread Chapter 16, (The importance of dietary fat in long-term
maintenance) in his book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living.
Volek and Phinney make some very good points in that chapter.
Even though I am far away from maintenance I am convinced that I need try to keep my proteins moderate and increase fat intake.
However I am finding this is not as easy to do as you might think.
Yes, their book is a fabulous resource! I will likely get the more recent book (The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance).

Keeping proteins moderate is the challenging aspect for me - the fats are easier.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:07 AM   #15
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Spanilingo, your observation is spot on in that the ancestral or traditional people populations that are used as examples are not suffering from metabolic disease but I think that is the point.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:06 AM   #16
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Yes, their book is a fabulous resource! I will likely get the more recent book (The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance).

Keeping proteins moderate is the challenging aspect for me - the fats are easier.
I have my eye on that book too!
The only problem is my night stand.
I have it piled so high with books on this WOE that there is an avalanche every morning when I reach for the alarm.
I find myself going back and rereading very often.
I am always finding something that I missed or finally understanding a concept that I was having a problem with.
When the going gets tough I start reading.
I am totally neglecting my fiction!
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:04 AM   #17
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So if I may I have a quick question.
It sounded in the video that he was saying to maintain your weight you need to add more fat not carbs and that your percentages should be 75-80% Fat, 15% protein, and carbs 5%. Was I hearing him correctly? So then what should the percentages be to lose? The same or different?
I actually listened to it a second time with Hubby last night and then put a hold on Phinney's book at the library. Now it is a waiting game till it comes in.
Thanks again for posting the video.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:37 AM   #18
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When trying to lose weight you cut the fat intake. Your body will use its own fat. Once the weight is lost then add the fat back into the diet.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:41 AM   #19
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for those without time to listen to the whole thing, in a nutshell he says that the proportion of nutrients your body gets is a combination of what you eat and the fat you are losing.

during the periods when an obese person is losing weight pretty fast on a ketogenic diet, if she is burning 2800 calories a day and eating only 1400 calories a day, the other half of the body's fuel will be her own fat, by definition. so even if she is eating a fair amount of protein, her nutrition is still high fat. (leaving out the argument that calories may not really be the relevant measure of fuel for now, ok? LOL)

but this only applies while you are losing weight! when you get to goal or just stall, your nutrition is just what you are eating, no extra fat added in. so in this case you need to up your fat intake a good deal.

he said you should NOT go over 30% protein if you want to stay in ketosis!

but bear in mind, that that is 30% of your total nutrition, not just what you eat, so it means different things for someone actively losing vs someone not losing.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:43 AM   #20
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When trying to lose weight you cut the fat intake. Your body will use its own fat. Once the weight is lost then add the fat back into the diet.
Thank you goose1, I figured that was probably the case but was having a bit of trouble with getting my percentages right. I use ****** and input my food. I just need to fiddle with it and find the right balance I guess.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:45 AM   #21
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for those without time to listen to the whole thing, in a nutshell he says that the proportion of nutrients your body gets is a combination of what you eat and the fat you are losing.

during the periods when an obese person is losing weight pretty fast on a ketogenic diet, if she is burning 2800 calories a day and eating only 1400 calories a day, the other half of the body's fuel will be her own fat, by definition. so even if she is eating a fair amount of protein, her nutrition is still high fat. (leaving out the argument that calories may not really be the relevant measure of fuel for now, ok? LOL)

but this only applies while you are losing weight! when you get to goal or just stall, your nutrition is just what you are eating, no extra fat added in. so in this case you need to up your fat intake a good deal.

he said you should NOT go over 30% protein if you want to stay in ketosis!

but bear in mind, that that is 30% of your total nutrition, not just what you eat, so it means different things for someone actively losing vs someone not losing.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:16 AM   #22
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I have been struggling with this issue mightily. I have trouble staying under 30% protein while still maintaing some reasonable calorie level. My stats usually end up 2300 kCal, 65% Fat, 30% protein, and 5% carbs.
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ravenrose View Post
for those without time to listen to the whole thing, in a nutshell he says that the proportion of nutrients your body gets is a combination of what you eat and the fat you are losing.

during the periods when an obese person is losing weight pretty fast on a ketogenic diet, if she is burning 2800 calories a day and eating only 1400 calories a day, the other half of the body's fuel will be her own fat, by definition. so even if she is eating a fair amount of protein, her nutrition is still high fat. (leaving out the argument that calories may not really be the relevant measure of fuel for now, ok? LOL)

but this only applies while you are losing weight! when you get to goal or just stall, your nutrition is just what you are eating, no extra fat added in. so in this case you need to up your fat intake a good deal.

he said you should NOT go over 30% protein if you want to stay in ketosis!

but bear in mind, that that is 30% of your total nutrition, not just what you eat, so it means different things for someone actively losing vs someone not losing.
If I get this right, he means...

During weight loss..
1- Cut carbs so you become ketogenic-- fat burning
2- Reduce calories enough so that not ALL of your energy comes from diet alone and your body must use its fat stores.
3- Dont OVER eat or raise fat during weight loss so that your body will use its fat stores instead of dietary fat.

During maintenance (on a non fat body) you dont want to store fat SO...

1- The largest source of energy should be fat. Your body will use that fat for energy and not convert the fat.
2-Too high protein disrupts this process forcing the body to want to store energy it is not using.

I find this interesting because it kinda takes the argument away about high fat vs low fat...calories count vs dont count...ketosis is the key VS ketosis is unnecessary.

Essentially, everyone is right AT SOME POINT. What I get now is:

1- One needs to CHANGE fat intake during weight loss
2- You DO need a calorie deficit for weight loss though not a fat deficit
3-You need high fat percentage to PREVENT weight gain
4- Ketosis seems more important for PREVENTION of weight gain as opposed to the only key for weight LOSS.
5- Ketosis is a preferred state to maintain a healthy metabolic state..I REALLY get the difference between ketosis vs ketoadapted.

Whew. I think video puts into perspective all the conflicting information/diets beliefs. Kind of shows you where those ideas come into play. Should be stickied.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:09 PM   #24
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Goose, Raven, and Span have it precisely RIGHT. It makes NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sense to follow the siren song on this forum to "up your fat" when dieting with LC; your body supplies more than enough of its fat stores to complement your protein and LC intake. Yet I see many, many here continue to shoot for 70-75% fat while dieting because they're following the Pied Piper.

Maintenance is an ENTIRELY different animal. His point is that you must raise your fat percentage to get sufficient calorie intake IF YOU WISH TO STAY INDEFINITELY IN KETOSIS; a lot of folks here may choose to do so. That's fine. For those who wish to introduce 50-150 daily grms of CHO over the long haul, they do not have to follow a high fat lifetime program. Each to his/her own.........

There's no "right" way to maintain. Of course, the hundreds of millions on the planet who are able to reasonably maintain their weights do so without chronic ketosis.

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Old 06-25-2012, 02:20 PM   #25
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What I got from this is the importance of being keto-adapted. This comes from low carbs/adequate protein/high fat. Too many carbs/too much protein can kick you out of this state and it takes a while to get back into ketosis.

However, for weight loss, the percentages are the same, but you eat less food, so your body has to use its own fat for energy. This is a good thing. You might still be at 75 percent fat, but if you are eating less, the amount of fat will go down, of course.

So, if you are eating 1400 calories a day, say..1,050 calories come from fat/280 calories come from pure protein/70 calories come from carbs. This is what I understood..
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:36 PM   #26
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The message is - protein, moderate, carbs, low and fat, high. I don't know anything about pied pipers unless maybe are good to eat because they fall into that criteria?
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:14 AM   #27
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Quote:
It makes NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sense to follow the siren song on this forum to "up your fat" when dieting with LC; your body supplies more than enough of its fat stores to complement your protein and LC intake. Yet I see many, many here continue to shoot for 70-75% fat while dieting because they're following the Pied Piper.

Maintenance is an ENTIRELY different animal. His point is that you must raise your fat percentage to get sufficient calorie intake IF YOU WISH TO STAY INDEFINITELY IN KETOSIS; a lot of folks here may choose to do so. That's fine. For those who wish to introduce 50-150 daily grms of CHO over the long haul, they do not have to follow a high fat lifetime program. Each to his/her own.........

There's no "right" way to maintain. Of course, the hundreds of millions on the planet who are able to reasonably maintain their weights do so without chronic ketosis.
Hear, hear! Agree, and appreciate the clarity. Ketosis is a tool, not an imperative. There is more than one way to think about how LC works, and what is best for individuals. Gurus tend to have their particular message. After listening, one still is left to decide for oneself.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:51 AM   #28
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The real bottom line is that you can eat high fat/moderate protein/low carb OR
low fat/moderate protein/high carb to maintain your weight or lose weight. The deadly
combination is high fat/high carb...

If you "up" your carbs, you "lower" your fat. It is like a seesaw..However, everyone has to find their own thing and combination that works for them.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:22 AM   #29
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Carolyn, so true!! I think for some of us, the issue of 'moderate protein' gets missed or is simply not under the radar. I have read that it can actually keep some people out of ketosis. I believe that this is one of those (many, many) issues that falls under the category of 'your mileage may vary'.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:47 AM   #30
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That is true, Clackley and one of the problems of new LCers is that they don't understand that. Dr. Atkins' nurse, Jackie, told me on the LC cruise, that that is a problem with men who first start LCing..They think it is a Meat Fest..LOL..
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