Dr. Steve Phinney on the subject of nutritional ketosis clarifies the protein issue..

[drjlocarb]

I am coming to realize the "mostly" protein diet is what has been stalling any progress.

Consuming more than the bare minimum grams of protein keeps me from using MY fat for energy. With carbs and protein at a set amount, only increasing the fat is left to change. I have tried 1200 cal from ptn and < 20g carbs and I can GAIN weight.

Sorry, that is my siren song.

[CarolynF]

Right..Most women require less than 90 grams of protein a day..some less than that, depending on their body size. Protein acts like carbs when you eat too much of it..Like 52 percent of it..

Only 10 percent of fat can be stored, while 100 percent of carbs and 52 percent of protein.
So, we can see how a high fat plan is more efficient for weight loss.

[clackley]

I agree. I think I could 'get away' with a higher amount of protein in the beginning due to my higher weight.

[dawnyama]

Originally Posted by nanberrycritter

Don't fear the protein, people. In his example of eating 1400 calories from protein, that is the approximate equivalent of 3 pounds of meat. Anybody here come close to 3lbs of meat in a day? I know I don't. Or stated in grams, 350 grams of protein equals 1400 calories. I aim for 100 grams of protein a day and many days I don't get that high.

This is just the amount my doctor wants me to get in. 100 grams a day.

[Liz1959]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

Right..Most women require less than 90 grams of protein a day..some less than that, depending on their body size. Protein acts like carbs when you eat too much of it..Like 52 percent of it..

Only 10 percent of fat can be stored, while 100 percent of carbs and 52 percent of protein.
So, we can see how a high fat plan is more efficient for weight loss.

Carolyn, Do you have a reference for this? I have lost some lean body mass while low carbing. I have a hard time getting 90g of protein a day, and to do that my calories have to be around 1600-1700+.
I ordered the Art and Science yesterday. I'm hoping there is more to Phinney's calculation for required protein than 1.5-2g/kg body weight. By that, even my goal weight of 135 requires 92g. If I use LBM, it would be 72g, but I understand that some protein is used for energy.
TIA

[Ntombi]

This man is fascinating. I could listen to him talk for hours. I loved how the conversation weaved from topic to topic. Thanks so much for posting this.

It also gave me more impetus to stay in ketosis and not have any off-plan days. I wasn't planning any, but his bit on keto-adaptation helped firm my resolve even more.

[Liz1959]

I listened to a LLVLC podcast and he references a protein table in the book, but I guess you can't see it on Amazon anymore. He did mention height when talking about it. I hope he is talking about something closer to the "Dew Weight" Carolyn mentioned in another thread. 65 grams seems more do-able to me and more inline with the percentages talked about regarding NK.
I hope my Amazon order doesn't really take 2 weeks to get here.

[CindyCRNA]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

The real bottom line is that you can eat high fat/moderate protein/low carb OR
low fat/moderate protein/high carb to maintain your weight or lose weight. The deadly
combination is high fat/high carb...

If you "up" your carbs, you "lower" your fat. It is like a seesaw..However, everyone has to find their own thing and combination that works for them.

and spot on! It is literally as simple as that however.....

Originally Posted by clackley

Carolyn, so true!! I think for some of us, the issue of 'moderate protein' gets missed or is simply not under the radar. I have read that it can actually keep some people out of ketosis. I believe that this is one of those (many, many) issues that falls under the category of 'your mileage may vary'.

I think this is so true!! I know I fall into the moderate or even high protein at 100-120 grams a day of protein on a small frame. My fat is 40-45% but I need to lower either the fat or the protein and follow Carolyn's post above. My excess protein is being turned to carbs along with a moderate fat diet may end up being disastrous. I find I have less cravings on a higher fat diet.

Originally Posted by dawnyama

This is just the amount my doctor wants me to get in. 100 grams a day.

What is your doctors reasoning? I see you are a small female like me and I'm just wondering.

[Punkin]

I started with the atkins induction following their recommendations and found that it was too much protein. So then I switched to the 30% intake. It was still too much. I then had to decrease even below that. But the reason was because my body still wasn't fat adapted, so I had to make sure I gave my body mostly fat for fuel so that most of my cells converted to being "fat burning." I guess with my size and the fact that my body seemed to be efficient at converting protein into fuel whenever I overconsumed, seemed to cause problems when shifting to a LC diet. Now that I am a bit over 2 months into VLC I seem to be able to handle the protein better.

[dawnyama]

Originally Posted by CindyCRNA

What is your doctors reasoning? I see you are a small female like me and I'm just wondering.

Honestly do not know never questioned her about it either.

[Leo41]

I followed Dr. Michael Eades advice in ProteinPower to get sufficient protein so that I lost fat and not muscle. If the body needs protein, it will use your muscle. That's why some people who lose a lot of weight become 'skinny fat' from loss of muscle tone.

Since I have to keep calories low to maintain my weight (post-menopausal and hypothyroid), I'm never in danger of over-consuming protein. I have trouble managing 70g a day, and that's my minimum. I have never had to worry about too much protein.

Thus, I never worry about fat--although I use butter and EVOO in cooking and dressing vegetables. I keep my carbs at 20-25g a day, my protein at least 70g, and I count my calories to stay within my limit. That works for me, as my stats show. I've been maintaining at this weight for two years.

[emel]

The way I look at it is that you gotta eat something. If I stay within atkins recommendations for carbs, it's 20 total carbs, that's 80 calories, or maybe up to 120 calories if counting net carbs, because some of the sugar alcohols and fiber might provide energy.
Calculating my protein needs, I get 70 to 90 grams, based on my weight and my activity. That's between 280 and 360 cal.

So carb plus protein approaches 480 calories. The rest absolutely has to come from fat (unless I drink a lot of liquor, but that's not very healthy.)
I do well on 1200-1400 cal,so that means I add 720-900 cal worth of fat. So that's 60-65% fat, 25-30% protein, and 5-10% carbs. Not because I'm aiming for those numbers, but because that's what it works out to be when I add my allowed proteins and carbs and sufficient fat to feel well fed.

[Maryposa]

Great thread! I will have to watch the video later, but the differing interpretations and opinions are really interesting.

[Maryposa]

Originally Posted by emel

The way I look at it is that you gotta eat something. If I stay within atkins recommendations for carbs, it's 20 total carbs, that's 80 calories, or maybe up to 120 calories if counting net carbs, because some of the sugar alcohols and fiber might provide energy.
Calculating my protein needs, I get 70 to 90 grams, based on my weight and my activity. That's between 280 and 360 cal.

So carb plus protein approaches 480 calories. The rest absolutely has to come from fat (unless I drink a lot of liquor, but that's not very healthy.)
I do well on 1200-1400 cal,so that means I add 720-900 cal worth of fat. So that's 60-65% fat, 25-30% protein, and 5-10% carbs. Not because I'm aiming for those numbers, but because that's what it works out to be when I add my allowed proteins and carbs and sufficient fat to feel well fed.

[Punkin]

I had 1 ounce of turkey breast on my salad today and I had hypoglycemia shortly afterwards. I have eaten the exact same salad in the past and never had problems until I added the turkey

[Leo41]

Punkin- Have you been checked medically about this hypoglycemia? Hypoglycemia is not a 'natural' reaction and often a sign of a metabolic problem. My sister had a history of hypoglycemia that turned out to be a prelude to Type2 diabetes.

I'm no physician, but if I were 'reacting' so such small amounts of food as you are, I would see a doctor.

[Punkin]

Thanks. My dad developed type II diabetes when he was 52 and I definitely fit the criteria for pre-diabetes. My doctor currently thinks the treatment for hypoglycemia is "eat more carbs" to balance my blood sugar out. What works for me actually seems to be the other way around. Eat more fat and I feel better. I notice I struggle when my carbs get too high, eat too many in a 2hour window, eat a meal too low in fat, or eat a protein that doesn't naturally contain a lot of fat. Ie. I do better on protein sources like salmon, ground beef and roasts. To deal with hypoglycemia I used to do either one of two things: eat a high carb snack or exercise. But even though that worked in the short term it has been getting worse over time. When I switched to LC/HF it was like a miracle. I have gone 5 full days without any signs of it. Now it happens once in awhile sometimes when I introduce a new food.

[Leo41]

Punkin-
I'm no physician, but I suspect that you are doing the right think to avoid carbs. My sister always 'recovered' from her hypoglycemia with a carb-heavy snack--and that led her to full-blown diabetes.

IMO, it's always good to see how one's own body responds to things. Now that she tests her blood sugar regularly, she has noticed that some foods that diabetics are told to avoid, don't affect her at all, while others that are recommended will send her sugar soaring.

[Punkin]

Originally Posted by Leo41

Punkin-
My sister always 'recovered' from her hypoglycemia with a carb-heavy snack--and that led her to full-blown diabetes.
.

OMG! My doctor doesn't like the internet because he thinks people get unsound medical advice, but this is an example of when the internet is very useful. I learned about LC from the internet, and it has basically cleared up all my health/weight issues. I am still struggling with the hypoglycemia, but I have a glucose monitor now, and it just seems to be the odd new food that I am struggling with.

[synger]

Punkin,

I was diagnosed with hypoglycemia almost 30 years ago, when it was the "disease du jour". My doc gave me an eating plan of low-grain, no-sugar, high-protein, whole-food, with vitamin B supplementation. She said to eat every 3-4 hours, even if it was a few nuts. I was in High School, and my mom and I joined the food co-op (the only place in our mid-sized Midwest town where you could buy brown rice or whole grain pasta (which was NASTY in the 80s, by the way! It's much tastier now.) or raw nuts or some of the more exotic spices and supplements. And you met the most interesting (hippie) people and heard the strangest music!). We completely overhauled how I ate, but I didn't see much difference at the time.

How I wish now that I'd continued to follow that advice! I listened to conventional wisdom and went the low-fat route, even doing Pritikin and low-fat vegetarian for a while. IR led to PCOS, and I had a terrible time with fertility. Now I'm pre-D. Thanks to my blood sugar meter, I'm finally re-visiting the diet my doc gave me all those years ago... it's basically a low-carb platform, without using that term.

I'd love to find her again and tell her how right she was.

If you think you're hypoglycemic, you may want to get a blood sugar meter and begin seeing how exactly your blood sugar reacts after you eat a meal. That's what finally made the case for me that I absolutely had to cut back on carbs, even "healthy whole grains". Seeing that number jump above 140 after a meal, even if it went back to normal levels after a few hours, made me realize how broken my metabolism was. Nothing else was able to convince me, because nothing else could show me so clearly.

If you are interested in learning about measuring your blood glucose, you should search on "blood sugar 101, levels" and you'll find some great information to get you started. That whole site was instrumental in me taking my blood sugar seriously and learning how to monitor it.

[Punkin]

Originally Posted by synger

How I wish now that I'd continued to follow that advice! I listened to conventional wisdom and went the low-fat route, even doing Pritikin and low-fat vegetarian for a while. IR led to PCOS, and I had a terrible time with fertility. Now I'm pre-D. Thanks to my blood sugar meter, I'm finally re-visiting the diet my doc gave me all those years ago... it's basically a low-carb platform, without using that term.

I'd love to find her again and tell her how right she was.

If you think you're hypoglycemic, you may want to get a blood sugar meter and begin seeing how exactly your blood sugar reacts after you eat a meal. That's what finally made the case for me that I absolutely had to cut back on carbs, even "healthy whole grains". Seeing that number jump above 140 after a meal, even if it went back to normal levels after a few hours, made me realize how broken my metabolism was. Nothing else was able to convince me, because nothing else could show me so clearly.

If you are interested in learning about measuring your blood glucose, you should search on "blood sugar 101, levels" and you'll find some great information to get you started. That whole site was instrumental in me taking my blood sugar seriously and learning how to monitor it.

This sounds all too familiar. Thanks, I'm going to take your advice. I am basically following the atkins diet, except eating much less protein than is probably recommended on atkins. With the exception to some proteins: eggs, salmon and ground beef, I seem to react to the proteins almost like I do carbs. I can eat about 3oz at dinner, but I have to pair it with a lot of fat and very low carb. I think testing my blood sugar might give me more insight into what is going on.