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Old 02-26-2012, 07:12 AM   #1
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Ketosis

I was watching a video about LCHF and they mentioned Ketosis but not much one thing they did mention is, once you gets into Ketosis, if you do have a cheat day it can take 2 to 4 weeks to get it back into Ketosis.

But i thought it only took a week to get into Ketosis?

So basically my question is how long does it take to be Ketosis and how long does Ketosis last? does you stay in Ketosis as long as you stick to the diet or does it plateau or stop etc?


Sry for my bad English
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:41 AM   #2
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Hi, Zed. Your English is super.

How soon one gets back into ketosis depends upon how much glycogen is store in the muscles and in the liver, etc. Eating very low carb and exercising will use that up quickly.

You are asking very good questions. I wish you success.
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:04 AM   #3
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That does not square with what I've read about ketosis. Everyone, generally speaking, is in and out of the state of ketosis at different times for different lengths all day long. Without regard to the way that person eats in terms of diet. The exceptions are those with damaged metabolisms (like diabetics) or eating disorders (emotional eating type issues).

When you eat carbs your insulin levels rise. While insulin levels are high, body fat is not burned easily for fuel but the carbs you ate are. When you finish eating and insulin levels return to nominal later then your body turns to stored fuel to keep functioning - ketosis. That is, if insulin levels are nominal your body will burn previously stored fat for fuel.

Google Dr. Eades blog for lots of good information.

P.S. I had to reread your post when I read Auntie Em mention your English was fine. In other words I didn't even notice that you might not be a native English speaker. =)
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:07 AM   #4
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Thanks Auntie

i have been on something similar to LCHF diet but have been eating fruits and veggies quite a bit which i didn't know where so high in Carbs so decided to start a proper LCHF diet tomorrow and keep to 20g or less Carbs.

So have been speed reading about Ketosis tonight and was just wondering as i read something about Diabetics and Ketosis and ketoacidosis if it was dangerous to be in Ketosis since i have type 2 Diabetes and am lets just say a Big Boy

One question is will me being on a very low Carbs diet under 20g daily be a problem regarding Ketosis or should i have more Carbs a day more then 20g.

I prefer to do it properly under 20g but just not sure as i don't know enough about it atm.

have been proably getting 50g to 75 daily 20g should be no problem

any info would be great

Thanks
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:14 AM   #5
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Hey reddarin thanks

Regarding my "English writing" sometimes i don't even understand it myself let alone getting others to.

I actually started typing before you and probably took ages compared to you to finish the above post as you see it being after your reply

There might be another 5 replies by the time i press submit with this one lol
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:34 AM   #6
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Zed, reddarin has given good information. Your English really is excellent.
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:34 AM   #7
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You are doing just fine with your posts. Probably better than lots of native speakers lol

If you have been eating a lot of fruits and veggies I highly doubt that you are under 75g of carbs daily. Most fruits are carbs bombs and lots of veggies are high carb too.

Although LC doesn't require logging food I highly recommend it. Especially since you have an underlying health condition with diabetes. I used ****** (google ****** ) and while it has some limitations and seriously annoying drawbacks it is fairly easy to get the hang of.

Thank God you've found LC. It is, or can be, the cure for diabetes for many people. You need to put a lot of effort into getting well informed about what you are doing since you are taking medication (I assume).

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Diabetics and Ketosis and ketoacidosis
Ketosis and ketoacidosis are two very different things. I believe Dr. Eades has at least one really good post about that. He runs an obesity clinic using LC and he has a lot of diabetic or pre-diabetic patients I believe. His site is searchable.

As long as you are LCHF and eat some colorful veggies to offset the acid properties of meat I think you'll be fine. But do your research. No need to hospitalize yourself and fuel to the anti-LC fire the Standard American Diet crowd uses to battle the best way of eating since sliced bread was invented (haha).

Oh! Read Wheat Belly too. Great book and it will help you stay LC.
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:41 AM   #8
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Much appreciated thank you
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:47 AM   #9
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i ran across a blog by a doctor who is extremely knowledgable about these matters and who himself had his own LC journey. His name is Peter Attia. Find his blog on the google (i am not sure if we can link to blogs or not). very useful.

Ketosis and Ketoacidosis are VERY DIFFERENT. Everything i know and have experienced for a T2 Diabetic is that ketosis will help a lot.

Best wishes!
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:54 AM   #10
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oh, and read Gary Taubes. His book "Why we get Fat and What we can do about it" is great.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:16 PM   #11
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I second reading Wheat Belly by William Davis, MD. I just finished it yesterday and it's very clear and informative.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:45 PM   #12
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I ate ice cream one week ago (Pms) and tested positive on ketostix. So I guess one week or less is enough to get back on board, if that one cheat even threw me out at all.
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zed View Post
But i thought it only took a week to get into Ketosis?

So basically my question is how long does it take to be Ketosis and how long does Ketosis last? does you stay in Ketosis as long as you stick to the diet or does it plateau or stop etc?


Sry for my bad English
For me, I can usually get back into ketosis within 24 hours after I eat something carby- if I stay very strict.

I go in and out of ketosis depending how strict I keep myself. I've been doing this 7 months and I'd say I am in ketosis most of the time.
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:55 PM   #14
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Low Carb Living is the video i was talking about

Low Carb High Fat | Dietdoctor.com
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Old 02-26-2012, 05:07 PM   #15
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Good info here, and your English is better than many born speaking it. Trust me! I've seen a lot worse!
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Old 02-26-2012, 06:31 PM   #16
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Low Carb Living is the video i was talking about

Low Carb High Fat | Dietdoctor.com
Wow! Thanks for posting the link. I hadn't seen that interview.

Here is the YouTube link in case the blog link is a no-no:


Okay. Having watched it I see what you were talking about with the 2 to 4 weeks and ketosis.

What the doctor said was that taking a one day or one weekend break and eating high carb would require 2 to 4 weeks of *re-adaptation*. He said that after a 2 to 4 week induction period you would be keto-adapted or in a state of constant nutritional ketosis.

That is the key though: nutritional ketosis. Which is to say, your body is switched over completely to fat as fuel rather than carbs.

So, if you break the LC way of eating your body quickly becomes carb centric and you will face 2 to 4 weeks for your body to adapt again. 2 to 4 weeks to become proficient at using fat for fuel - not 2 to 4 weeks to experience normal ketosis. Or transient ketosis versus nutritional ketosis. Transient ketosis is experienced by every one throughout the day at various times barring metabolic damage. Nutritional ketosis is a long term state that signifies your body's natural fuel will be fat rather than carbs.

I just got his book. I have started reading it but haven't gotten very far yet. I'm really looking forward to reading it now.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:15 AM   #17
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Thanks reddarin for explaining it in laymans for me lol now i Capish cool
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:13 AM   #18
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I dunno, I think once you've done it long enough you are adapted and can jump back and forth relatively easily. Ketosis begins when your liver runs out of glycogen, it only stores like 120g of the stuff and you can go through that in 1 day. I regularly carb-cheat (usually once a week or 2) and find my acetone breath is back within 1 day.

But maybe this is just the transient ketosis... either way I can bicycle quite a while on it as I've recently foumd.

Last edited by spirilis; 02-27-2012 at 03:14 AM..
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:50 PM   #19
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Wow! Thanks for posting the link. I hadn't seen that interview.

Here is the YouTube link in case the blog link is a no-no:

Low Carb Living - YouTube

Okay. Having watched it I see what you were talking about with the 2 to 4 weeks and ketosis.

What the doctor said was that taking a one day or one weekend break and eating high carb would require 2 to 4 weeks of *re-adaptation*. He said that after a 2 to 4 week induction period you would be keto-adapted or in a state of constant nutritional ketosis.

That is the key though: nutritional ketosis. Which is to say, your body is switched over completely to fat as fuel rather than carbs.

So, if you break the LC way of eating your body quickly becomes carb centric and you will face 2 to 4 weeks for your body to adapt again. 2 to 4 weeks to become proficient at using fat for fuel - not 2 to 4 weeks to experience normal ketosis. Or transient ketosis versus nutritional ketosis. Transient ketosis is experienced by every one throughout the day at various times barring metabolic damage. Nutritional ketosis is a long term state that signifies your body's natural fuel will be fat rather than carbs.

I just got his book. I have started reading it but haven't gotten very far yet. I'm really looking forward to reading it now.
This sounds like BS to me. The book, The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald which explains the science in a no-nonsense kind of way advocates a cyclical ketogenic diet for athletes where they do weekly carb refeeds and then return back to dietary ketosis within the next few days.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:39 PM   #20
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If you don't feel hungry once your body is ketosis and say your last meal was 8-9 hours ago and your like not hungry atm but thinking its time to eat yeah i could snack something "habits" should you eat or wait till your hungrier even if it means not eating for another few hours and instead of having say 3 meals only having 2 for the day?
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:00 PM   #21
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In the past, after I had been in ketosis well for several weeks I could eat a carb up meal (one meal) and be back in ketosis with in two days.. sometimes less than that.

Also eat with your hunger. I don't think anyone here will tell you to eat just because you feel it's time!
Believe me.. your hunger will come back when it's time.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:29 PM   #22
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This sounds like BS to me. The book, The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald which explains the science in a no-nonsense kind of way advocates a cyclical ketogenic diet for athletes where they do weekly carb refeeds and then return back to dietary ketosis within the next few days.
Well sir. I am not a doctor. I simply posted my interpretation of what the doctor said. You are welcome to your opinion =)
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:56 AM   #23
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Alright well after watching the video a bit (only 5 minutes in), at 4 minutes Phinney goes into it a bit--the exact topic of re-ketoadaptation hasn't been "adequately studied" but in his own clinical practice he saw the effect where ketone levels took 1-2 weeks to ramp back up to their stable state.

So I think there may be something to that--you will probably end up in ketosis after a day or 2 post-carb cheat, but your ketone levels may not be ramped up to the level you'd want if, say, you were about to do a sports competition in a ketogenic state. Since I've been doing a lot of bicycling lately with the early spring weather, this is important to me.

Also I don't think that's the same as the 2-6 week "keto-adaptation", I think the painful metabolic adaptation is still there it just takes 1-2wk post-carb cheat to ramp up full production again, but note that's my speculation.

Last edited by spirilis; 02-28-2012 at 05:59 AM..
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:06 AM   #24
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Alright well after watching the video a bit (only 5 minutes in), at 4 minutes Phinney goes into it a bit--the exact topic of re-ketoadaptation hasn't been "adequately studied" but in his own clinical practice he saw the effect where ketone levels took 1-2 weeks to ramp back up to their stable state.

So I think there may be something to that--you will probably end up in ketosis after a day or 2 post-carb cheat, but your ketone levels may not be ramped up to the level you'd want if, say, you were about to do a sports competition in a ketogenic state. Since I've been doing a lot of bicycling lately with the early spring weather, this is important to me.

Also I don't think that's the same as the 2-6 week "keto-adaptation", I think the painful metabolic adaptation is still there it just takes 1-2wk post-carb cheat to ramp up full production again, but note that's my speculation.
I think you are right on this.. there is more to it than just looking at a ketostik.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:06 AM   #25
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Alright well after watching the video a bit (only 5 minutes in), at 4 minutes Phinney goes into it a bit--the exact topic of re-ketoadaptation hasn't been "adequately studied" but in his own clinical practice he saw the effect where ketone levels took 1-2 weeks to ramp back up to their stable state.

So I think there may be something to that--you will probably end up in ketosis after a day or 2 post-carb cheat, but your ketone levels may not be ramped up to the level you'd want if, say, you were about to do a sports competition in a ketogenic state. Since I've been doing a lot of bicycling lately with the early spring weather, this is important to me.

Also I don't think that's the same as the 2-6 week "keto-adaptation", I think the painful metabolic adaptation is still there it just takes 1-2wk post-carb cheat to ramp up full production again, but note that's my speculation.
That is my interpretation as well. Ketosis is a natural and normal state that everyone who does not have a damaged physiology will experience throughout the day at various times - it is simply burning stored energy. Cheating doesn't mean you won't be ketogenic within a short time but it does mean that your body will have to re-adapt over a 2 to 4 week period for *efficient* dietary ketosis.

As anecdotal evidence, how many posts have you read from someone that is concerned that the ketostix no longer show them in ketosis after a couple of weeks although they are following LC strictly? The body has become adapted and no longer produces enough excess ketones to show on those stix.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:13 AM   #26
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That is my interpretation as well. Ketosis is a natural and normal state that everyone who does not have a damaged physiology will experience throughout the day at various times - it is simply burning stored energy. Cheating doesn't mean you won't be ketogenic within a short time but it does mean that your body will have to re-adapt over a 2 to 4 week period for *efficient* dietary ketosis.

As anecdotal evidence, how many posts have you read from someone that is concerned that the ketostix no longer show them in ketosis after a couple of weeks although they are following LC strictly? The body has become adapted and no longer produces enough excess ketones to show on those stix.




I just wonder if this is true, why would a person who has been in ketosis for more than a couple of years still get moderate readings on the stix? The difference must indicate something...
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:22 AM   #27
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[/B]

I just wonder if this is true, why would a person who has been in ketosis for more than a couple of years still get moderate readings on the stix? The difference must indicate something...
Welp. That is the problem with anecdotal evidence
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:23 AM   #28
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[/B]

I just wonder if this is true, why would a person who has been in ketosis for more than a couple of years still get moderate readings on the stix? The difference must indicate something...
Very good question. I think there are a few possibilities and the fine minutiae just haven't been explored--I recall Phinney mentioning either in his book or in another interview of his that the reason detectable ketone levels ("detectable ketone" = Acetoacetate [ketostix] or Acetone [breath], but not Beta-hydroxybutyrate) drop with keto-adaptation is that your body deliberately converts more Acetoacetate to B-OHB and that this occurs in your muscles.

So that raises the question... What causes your muscles to do this? Does the exercise level affect it, does it have to do with glycogen levels in the muscles, etc? Seems to me there's room for individual variation with this too. But I haven't read or heard any satisfying detail on this and I'm guessing the details haven't been found yet.

I think as Phinney/Volek's book and message and the general LCHF dietary advice gains further ground we might start to see studies funded to answer these questions. At least that's my hope.

Last edited by spirilis; 02-28-2012 at 06:25 AM..
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:39 AM   #29
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Very good question. I think there are a few possibilities and the fine minutiae just haven't been explored--I recall Phinney mentioning either in his book or in another interview of his that the reason detectable ketone levels ("detectable ketone" = Acetoacetate [ketostix] or Acetone [breath], but not Beta-hydroxybutyrate) drop with keto-adaptation is that your body deliberately converts more Acetoacetate to B-OHB and that this occurs in your muscles.

So that raises the question... What causes your muscles to do this? Does the exercise level affect it, does it have to do with glycogen levels in the muscles, etc? Seems to me there's room for individual variation with this too. But I haven't read or heard any satisfying detail on this and I'm guessing the details haven't been found yet.

I think as Phinney/Volek's book and message and the general LCHF dietary advice gains further ground we might start to see studies funded to answer these questions. At least that's my hope.
Just received my book and am anxious to read what they have to say. I have heard this topic discussed but never an answer provided. Most recently heard Mark Sisson say that once keto adapted the body becomes good at using the available energy and that spilling ketones no longer occurs...I was somewhat disturbed to hear this. Up until recently, I was under the belief that ketones detected by stix were actually the waste product of the actual ketones. Appears that I was wrong?
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:39 AM   #30
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Just received my book and am anxious to read what they have to say. I have heard this topic discussed but never an answer provided. Most recently heard Mark Sisson say that once keto adapted the body becomes good at using the available energy and that spilling ketones no longer occurs...I was somewhat disturbed to hear this. Up until recently, I was under the belief that ketones detected by stix were actually the waste product of the actual ketones. Appears that I was wrong?
Ketones detected by the stix are most definitely wasted, otherwise they wouldn't be in your urine. The book does talk about the kidneys' role in ketone dumping (initially during induction, it dumps them like crazy but eventually "wises up")--but most of the physiology is about the first ~2-6 weeks of keto-adaptation, there just isn't much at all for folks on it long term. IMO this part of the field is a world of science unexplored.

Side note, Phinney's observation about elevated uric acid levels during induction are related to the kidneys ketone dumping--that the pathway used to excrete organic acids gets overwhelmed by ketone dumping, and this competitively inhibits the kidneys' ability to dump uric acid. The fact that uric acid levels usually drop after 2 weeks of adaptation show a shift in the kidneys' function possibly in conjunction with a drop in metabolized protein (indicating that the liver is seeing less need for gluconeogenesis, as ketones are probably being used by the body's tissues more effectively thus taking up the slack) although the book's explanation focuses on kidney function, not gluconeogenesis.

Last edited by spirilis; 02-28-2012 at 07:47 AM..
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