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Old 01-15-2011, 06:09 PM   #1
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Dairy Causes Stalls Because (Yes, Actual Research in this Post)

I have recently read why dairy causes stalls. Basically, dairy creates a larger insulin response than can be accounted for by the protein and carbs (allbeit not a sustained insulin release). I thought, "What?!?! Oh my gosh...I've been on a 3 whey shake regimen recommended by Dr. Eades...

I am unusually insulin resistant and I think most people on the board already know that insulin puts a lock on fat stores.

I learned this from reading Mark Sisson's article titled "Dairy and It's Effect on Insulin and What it Means for Your Waistline."

Here is an exerpt:
In one study (PDF), milk was even more insulinogenic than white bread, but less so than whey protein with added lactose and cheese with added lactose. Another study (PDF) found that full-fat fermented milk products and regular full-fat milk were about as insulinogenic as white bread.
Here are the links to the research (the studies in the above paragraph)

Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and incretins ? Am J Clin Nutr


http://www.ajcn.org/content/74/1/96.full.pdf+html

I have read research about how whey does create more muscle and fat loss in rats. You know, I'm not a rat, and I'm not running on an exercise wheel either. Also, I realize these studies (above) are small, but, as I understand it, insulin responses in people are well-understood and accepted and do not require large sample sizes, and you know, these are people, not rats.

What are your thoughts?

Does dairy stall you?

Do you have other research or low-carb gurus to site on this? Please post them (help!)

Diet techhies--please correct me if this is wrong or if i've misread! I love dairy (sob)


...and sorry to rant, but I'm a working mom and I expect someone like Dr. Eades of Protein Power to have done the research before recommending someone at my weight to eat three scoops of whey (15 g protein) per shake three times per day for two weeks (phase 1). Nine scoops of whey per day. Really.
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:11 PM   #2
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Dairy does not stall my weight losses or affect my blood sugars adversely unless of course I eat something with added sugar in it like ice cream. Just my personal experience.

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Old 01-15-2011, 06:13 PM   #3
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Couldn't have made it this far without my cheese and heavy cream! So no it doesn't stall me. Helps more than it hurts for me. Sometimes breakfast is just a cup of coffe with 4 TBLSP HWC. That keeps me full till lunch.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:29 PM   #4
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Well, most LCers don't drink real milk because it is so carby. HWC and other fatty
things probably don't raise your insulin levels like milk does. Am I wrong???
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:43 PM   #5
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It's been a while since I've read the books, but I don't think Atkins or the Eades recommend huge amounts of dairy. The Eades do recommend protein shakes in their 6 week cure book, but overall, I think dairy-- cream, cheese, whatever else, are not free foods-- I think cheese is about 1g net per ounce on average, and Atkins says no more than 3 oz a day (I think)?

I do think that quitting dairy can get you out of a stall-- I tried Paleo for a while a long time ago, and I did feel less congested and things got moving again.

But for me, it's non-sustainable. YMMV.

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Old 01-15-2011, 07:49 PM   #6
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CarolynF,

This is the part that is of concern. Since the researchers could not nail the carby-part, the lactose, as the culprit for the higher insulin response, the thinking is now it's something else.

They haven't identified the mechanism to explain the higher insulin response, but they do know that the body can have different insulin responses to different amino acids.

I am hoping someone on the board knows more about this and can point me to more research. I am concerned.

And I'm with you - dairy makes the LC diet much easier! But I will seek out ways to do it without dairy (and as enjoyable as I can make it) if I have to.

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Old 01-15-2011, 09:08 PM   #7
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Question: Did you have your losses while using dairy?

I can't really help with your concerns, but could it possibly be similar to the caffeine issue? I know they are studies that say caffeine stalls people but I think many here can attest that its an individual thing and they have been able to lose just fine with caffeine. If you've been losing with dairy, I wouldn't be worried about this study. If you haven't, might be part of your missing puzzle. But again, I am no expert on this so you can take that with a grain of salt.

Personally the only "stall" I get from dairy, is if I use too much cheese, I may end up retaining water. And thats not really all due to cheese, its in addition to all the other high sodium things I might have eaten. The sodium in the cheese might help to contribute to my water retention. I don't consider that a stall, I just need to cut back on sodium if I don't want the water retention.
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sorenkkg View Post
It's been a while since I've read the books, but I don't think Atkins or the Eades recommend huge amounts of dairy. The Eades do recommend protein shakes in their 6 week cure book, but overall, I think dairy-- cream, cheese, whatever else, are not free foods-- I think cheese is about 1g net per ounce on average, and Atkins says no more than 3 oz a day (I think)?

I do think that quitting dairy can get you out of a stall-- I tried Paleo for a while a long time ago, and I did feel less congested and things got moving again.

But for me, it's non-sustainable. YMMV.

Soren
Soren, in their latest book 6week Cure for the Middle Age Middle or whatever it's called, the Drs. Eades recommend a 2week induction phase where you replace a certain number of meals with whey protein drinks.

Also, in Protein Power Lifeplan they were big advocates of the whey protein, mixed berry smoothy.

Just sayin...

And yeah, the more dairy I eat, the less weight loss I see. I can eat it and lose with moderation. Also, I love yogurt but even my plain Dannon causes my bg to spike. Not enough for me to not eat it but enough that I recognize I can't go wild with it.
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:30 PM   #9
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Dairy doesn't cause me trouble. I don't eat it by the truckload, but I don't really worry about it either.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:27 PM   #10
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I do eat a bit of cheese and I do enjoy a Fage yogurt nearly every day. I don't think it stalls me. What does stall me is a lot of nut butters, nuts and chocolate if I overdo on them which I sometimes do
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pooticus View Post
Soren, in their latest book 6week Cure for the Middle Age Middle or whatever it's called, the Drs. Eades recommend a 2week induction phase where you replace a certain number of meals with whey protein drinks.

Also, in Protein Power Lifeplan they were big advocates of the whey protein, mixed berry smoothy.

Just sayin...

And yeah, the more dairy I eat, the less weight loss I see. I can eat it and lose with moderation. Also, I love yogurt but even my plain Dannon causes my bg to spike. Not enough for me to not eat it but enough that I recognize I can't go wild with it.
Pooticus,

Thank you for your post.

I really think I need to reduce my Fage yogurt habit.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:14 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulipsandroses View Post
Question: Did you have your losses while using dairy?

I can't really help with your concerns, but could it possibly be similar to the caffeine issue? I know they are studies that say caffeine stalls people but I think many here can attest that its an individual thing and they have been able to lose just fine with caffeine. If you've been losing with dairy, I wouldn't be worried about this study. If you haven't, might be part of your missing puzzle. But again, I am no expert on this so you can take that with a grain of salt.

Personally the only "stall" I get from dairy, is if I use too much cheese, I may end up retaining water. And thats not really all due to cheese, its in addition to all the other high sodium things I might have eaten. The sodium in the cheese might help to contribute to my water retention. I don't consider that a stall, I just need to cut back on sodium if I don't want the water retention.
My losses have slowed lately, and I notice I've been hungrier between whey shakes, even though the shakes are so filling I can hardly eat them. I get a "barfy" feeling toward the end of trying to get them down. Oh, of course, I have stopped the plan now.

Yes, I have read Atkins' recommendations (I don't follow Atkins) about limiting cheese and Eades as well. Eades seemed to think (in his blog entry) that people stalling from eating cheese was due to eating for pleasure.

I really think there is something more to this, but yes, I have limited cheese to 4 ounces per day or less simply because so many seem to think it's best to limit cheese. I've stopped making so much califlower pizza!

RE: coffee--yes, I have read the mixed coffee reviews. It is crazy confusing - some studies say it helps you lose weight, some say the opposite. It can increase cortisol (stress hormone, to be avoided if trying to lose weight). I always thought coffee helped me, so drink a moderate amount for this reason.

RE: sodium--I have an opinion, it's all I can offer. I think the sodium causes calcium leaching which drives the poor body to up the appetite trying to make up for this.

Thank you so much for your post!

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Old 01-15-2011, 11:38 PM   #13
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My philosophy on dairy is the same as my philosophy on wine and chocolate.

If I'm going to eat it, I better enjoy it. It better be great quality, consumed moderately, mindfully, and occasionally. If I use it in a meal, I am also moderate about it, and again, fussy about the type/quality. It comes easy, because my son can't do dairy, so I'm accustomed to making meals that are versatile enough to be with or without certain ingredients.

I don't do cheap cheese, wine or chocolate. I like fancy-pants cheese, and can't afford to eat it too often. So, it doesn't make me crazy not to have it, because I know that when I do have it, I'll enjoy it.

That said, I do enjoy a bit of yoghurt now and then, either homemade whole goat or cow milk yoghurt, but I moderate that, too, right now. For whatever reason, I can eat a full cup of yoghurt, and still feel like I haven't eaten a thing, so I am careful with it. Very careful. I tend to treat it more as medicine than food. Again though, this is all right now. I'm still nursing, so my chemistry might change when I'm not.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:46 PM   #14
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My philosophy on dairy is the same as my philosophy on wine and chocolate.

I don't do cheap cheese, wine or chocolate. I like fancy-pants cheese, and can't afford to eat it too often. So, it doesn't make me crazy not to have it, because I know that when I do have it, I'll enjoy it.

That said, I do enjoy a bit of yoghurt now and then, either homemade whole goat or cow milk yoghurt, but I moderate that, too, right now. For whatever reason, I can eat a full cup of yoghurt, and still feel like I haven't eaten a thing, so I am careful with it. Very careful. I tend to treat it more as medicine than food. Again though, this is all right now. I'm still nursing, so my chemistry might change when I'm not.
Yes, I agree...I have noticed my yogurt isn't very satisfying, even though so many people say it is.

Also, I agree on the cheese--right now I have french brie and french Comte. French cheese is supposed to be highest in CLA, an antioxidant and also is supposed to help build muscle and regulate appetite.

Chocolate--I hope to someday to become a stronger person on this one.

Wine--fortunately, I don't have the enzymes to break down wine, so can barely drink any.

Thank you for your post, MamaSage!

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Old 01-16-2011, 03:45 AM   #15
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To paint with such a broad brush is misleading.

The lactose content of milk is much greater than the lactose content of cream or butter.
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Old 01-16-2011, 04:22 AM   #16
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I have lost weight & maintained the loss while eating lots of cheese of all kinds & drinking 1 to 2 glasses of whole milk daily for most of that time. It was after I added the whole milk that I started losing faster. I think it helps me & consider eggs & dairy superior forms of protein & fat.
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:44 AM   #17
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I drink a good whey protein shake every day (divided into portions) as some meal relacements and some before meals, and I have been successful in losing my 1st 25 pounds. I also alternate with using 100% egg white protein instead of whey.

The egg white protein shake may be an option if you like the shakes, although it is more expensive.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:21 AM   #18
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Whey powder stalled me for whatever reason. I was feeling fantastic after having it in my decaf coffee(maybe the temporary spike in blood sugar) but I didn't lose one microgram as long as I was ingesting it.
HWC and moderate amounts of cheese (4 oz a day or less) are fine.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:29 AM   #19
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Drinking 1/2 to 1 1/2 cups of Kefir a day has helped my weightloss!
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:44 AM   #20
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To be honest I don't know. I do know I am off about 136 lbs in two years of which a bowl of cottage cheese and about 2 oz of hard cheese were daily items. Once in a blue moon I drink a cup of coffee with HWC, but not often. I sin by drinking Dt Mt Dew year around. Guess that is another subject?
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:42 PM   #21
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To paint with such a broad brush is misleading.

The lactose content of milk is much greater than the lactose content of cream or butter.
Yes, very true--this does not necessarily mean all dairy.

RE: Lactose--the researchers could not account for the insulin spike by the lactose carb count or the amount of protein. There is some other mechanism at work that creates a larger insulin spike than it should; what it is, they don't know.

I suspect it is something about the protein, but I am just a lay person.

I really don't suspect butter or cream; I really haven't seen complaints about cream or butter as a stall. I've got nothing to go on but observation here.

I am just hoping that cheese doesn't spike insulin. I really hope the trouble with cheese is simply that it tastes so good...I wish someone had a study of insulin response to cheese to refer me to.

Thank you for you post; I am not meaning to startle anyone about butter or cream.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:46 PM   #22
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To be honest I don't know. I do know I am off about 136 lbs in two years of which a bowl of cottage cheese and about 2 oz of hard cheese were daily items. Once in a blue moon I drink a cup of coffee with HWC, but not often. I sin by drinking Dt Mt Dew year around. Guess that is another subject?
Thank you, I appreciate your response.

I am especially interested in folks' experiences that have had a lot of weight to lose and found success long term using dairy. I have had a long haul so far, and a long haul ahead.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:48 PM   #23
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Whey powder stalled me for whatever reason. I was feeling fantastic after having it in my decaf coffee(maybe the temporary spike in blood sugar) but I didn't lose one microgram as long as I was ingesting it.
HWC and moderate amounts of cheese (4 oz a day or less) are fine.
Yes!!! I really feel fantastic on the whey powder! I didn't see much weight loss, though, not at the rate I had going before.

Thank you for your post, it is good to see that you did fine on cream and moderate cheese.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:50 PM   #24
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Drinking 1/2 to 1 1/2 cups of Kefir a day has helped my weightloss!
You know, I used to make keifer! What I noticed most was my teeth were so clean...do you know what I mean? There is something odd about it that I think does not let bacteria grow in the mouth. I was doing this back when I tried a vegetarian diet (for weight loss--did not work!!!).

I hope to add it back someday when I am at maintenance.

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Old 01-16-2011, 04:29 PM   #25
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In the beginning we did eat more cheese when I went crazy making recipes. I have since learned to make the cheesy type casseroles only once in a while and just concentrate on grilled or broiled meat, salads and veggies for the largest part of our diet. I don't think it stalled us though. I still use HWC in my coffee everyday and no serious stalls.
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Old 01-16-2011, 04:55 PM   #26
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In the beginning we did eat more cheese when I went crazy making recipes. I have since learned to make the cheesy type casseroles only once in a while and just concentrate on grilled or broiled meat, salads and veggies for the largest part of our diet. I don't think it stalled us though. I still use HWC in my coffee everyday and no serious stalls.
Yes, I am thinking that I need to make more meat/vegetable stews and less cauliflower pizza and portabello mushroom lasagna!!!

The board is too fun for recipes.

I'm using coconut milk in my coffee.

I am fascinated by the use of MCT oil (a derivative of coconut oil)in the ketogenic diet for epileptic children because they are able to get into ketosis (to prevent seizures in these children that do not respond to medication) on higher carbs and protein than they otherwise would.

I am looking to see if I find a positive effect for me in weight loss just on coconut milk.

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Old 01-16-2011, 05:05 PM   #27
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KT- I drink a lot of coffee with half and half and use a lot of HWC in my dinners, I love dairy, I stopped drinking milk because of the 12 carbs per cup, cheese I eat but don't overdo it, none of this has stalled me, what stalls me is too many low carb bars and SF chocolates, I drink whey shakes with either carb countdown or almond milk, I miss yogurt and cottage cheese I don't eat them because of the carb counts. I think it is a YMMV thing, it is funny how some things stall some people, I still think dairy is important, and I wouldn't give it up, the one thing I miss most about low carb is not drinking milk.
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:10 PM   #28
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KT- I drink a lot of coffee with half and half and use a lot of HWC in my dinners, I love dairy, I stopped drinking milk because of the 12 carbs per cup, cheese I eat but don't overdo it, none of this has stalled me, what stalls me is too many low carb bars and SF chocolates, I drink whey shakes with either carb countdown or almond milk, I miss yogurt and cottage cheese I don't eat them because of the carb counts. I think it is a YMMV thing, it is funny how some things stall some people, I still think dairy is important, and I wouldn't give it up, the one thing I miss most about low carb is not drinking milk.
Thank you for posting your experience Bejewelme! It means a lot, especially since you have come a long way.

I am stepping away from the yogurt too (sadly). I am thinking I may use the whey shakes only for exercise days.

I have no strength when it comes to the SF chocolate. I hope to someday. Maybe. I can't tell if I mean it!

My gosh, look, you are going to crack that hundred pound mark in no time!!! Wow!!!
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:55 PM   #29
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I think the stalls with dairy for most come from too many calories/ carbs. If you add up hwc in coffee, cheese in eggs, cheesy dressings, dinner recipes with cheese that amounts to a lot of calories/carbs.

I skip almost all dairy- I don't think it adds anything nutrient-wise that I can't get from other foods and it is super calorific.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:32 PM   #30
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WOE: Semi-Primal
I have only read the original post, so if anyone's already addressed this, forgive me.
I noticed in the paragraph Key Tones posted that it says LACTOSE was added back to cheese and whey protein, and comparing that to regular milk (which also is full of lactose). Lactose is sugar, so it makes perfect sense that anything containing sugar is going to produce the insulin response.
Cheeses and whey protein do not contain the amount of sugar of fresh milk -- in fact it's almost none (usually, depends on the cheese sometimes). Most low carbers do not drink fresh milk because it contains a lot of lactose (milk sugar). If they did, it would probably stall them.
Bottom line, if a dairy product contains a lot of lactose/milk sugar, it surely will produce the insulin response, and may very likely cause a stall in weightloss, just as if a person ate sucrose or fructose, etc. On the other hand, if a dairy product like cream or cheddar cheese is consumed, there is virtually no lactose, and there should be no associated insulin response or weight loss stall.
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