How many carbs is VLC?

[hummingbird11]

Originally Posted by Dreams

I think you make a valid point about people restarting but that is not just with Low Carb. It's with every other diet or WOE.

If I were Jenna, I would be upset with this post. I don't think it was your intentions but it came out pretty harsh.

I applaud Jenna (as I said before) ~
if you sense any harshness, it was unintentional.

It was more of a caution to those thinking of following in her footsteps without understanding what/why they are doing so or what it really involves.

Jenna is undoubtedly a success! I congratulated her and I wish her well.

But without learning what works for one's body (sans unsustainable extreme measures) success can, unfortunately, be temporary.

[hummingbird11]

Touche

Originally Posted by Dreams

I think you make a valid point about people restarting but that is not just with Low Carb. It's with every other diet or WOE.

Originally Posted by babetteq

Sticking to a WOE is the clincher in any plan. MOST changes to eating habits have low success rates because people go back to what they know. Whether you're restricting calories, carbs, fat, or small purple monsters, if you go back to the woe that made you gain weight, you will gain weight again.

We all try our best and what we can maintain will be intensely personal.

Point is, maintaining is a process that will go on for the rest of our lives.

Originally Posted by Looweewoo

Sure, it's a small percentage of the total population of dieters, but all the success stories of all the diet plans are just a small percentage... it's hard to stick to any diet.

[LeighDear]

Totally agree that lifestyle & the personal home situation is a HUGE component in success with VLC.

I adopted VLC (less than 10 carbs per day for me) about 3 weeks ago....I'm down 8 pounds and satisfied with my progress. Not an Uber-dramatic loss, but I'm 5' 8" and at 176 pounds now. My jeans are size 12, and fit comfortably. But I have size 8 jeans that I want to get back into.

BUT.....I'm single and live alone. No spouse, no kids. The food I buy is ONLY for me. No cereal, no chips, no Ice Cream, no cookies, no pasta, no canned or frozen foods....no carbs of ANY kind in my kitchen or fridge, excepting fresh veggies, Splenda, various cheeses & a few "additions" like olives & pickles...... I have complete, total and absolute control over what goes in my mouth.

It's incredibly simple if you have no other live body to accomodate. Not EASY by any means...*LOL* Some days I DESPERATELY want to drive thru KFC and mindlessly order a "Party-size" Popcorn Chicken & large side of Potato Wedges.... That's the negative flip-side.....I have NO other person to "talk me down" from the BAD FOOD ledge....

[way2fluffy]

?????
What happened here people??? I leave to spend 6 1/2 hours in the urgent care transfer to ER with my 83 yo DMIL and this thread comes to this????
lighten up people.....
YMMV....
do what you need to do to survive.....
figure out what works for you and leave the rest.....
it's about TOLERANCE....
exchange of ideas etc etc etc.....
keep an open mind and realize that this is for an exchange of ideas....
TIA....

have a great day all!

[LeighDear]

Originally Posted by way2fluffy

?????
What happened here people??? I leave to spend 6 1/2 hours in the urgent care transfer to ER with my 83 yo DMIL and this thread comes to this????
lighten up people.....
YMMV....
do what you need to do to survive.....
figure out what works for you and leave the rest.....
it's about TOLERANCE....
exchange of ideas etc etc etc.....
keep an open mind and realize that this is for an exchange of ideas....
TIA....

have a great day all!

Um, we HAVE been exchanging lots of ideas here in the last 5 hours...Based on VLC and our individual experiences......

Have you not read all the posts? Thanks, but we're doing just fine....

Best to your DMIL.....

[way2fluffy]

well yes..... I can read, thank you.
glad you understand what the thread was trying to convey.
thanks for sharing.

[LeighDear]

Originally Posted by way2fluffy

well yes..... I can read, thank you.
glad you understand what the thread was trying to convey.
thanks for sharing.

Always glad to help the newbies along the LC path....It rarely "sticks" for good the first time around, despite the dramatic initial loss.

SO amazing & seems so easy once you get to goal. But it's actually more difficult to maintain than to lose.

[legrandeginge]

Hey hey.

Here in England behind all you guys with the time zones....

hummingbird11 thanks for your advise and concern about VLC but you really mustn't worry....i'm not blindly limiting carbs because i'm faddy or because Jenna lost a lot. I was VLC-ing long before Jenna posted her success story.

I began researching the "natural" diet for humans many years ago, i have read practically any study you can imagine and have a lot to say about the fashion, politics and economics driving what is considered healthy and what isn't.

Many of the areas i have researched have nothing to do with the multi million dollar diet industry and my reading on the subject had ranged from anthropology and evolutionism to microbiology and oncology research. I am personally convinced that the human body hasn't evolved to eat carbohydrates fully yet and that we evolved on shore lines eating mainly a very high fat and protein sea food based diet. This is why there are so many brain essential nutrients in sea food. It's just one theory but meat, fish, sea food and eggs has absolutely ALL the nutrients our bodies need, babies are born in a ketogenic state and i believe that glucose being the preferred source of energy for the human body is a fallacy.

My problem is, that whilst i have digested all the theories and the hard science, i have a human personality and am inherently (like everyone else) a social animal. So living ZC or VLC as i would wish to not necessarily just to lose weight but because i believe it is truly truly the healthiest way to live is hard. Hard because i live in a culture and society who eat masses or carbohydrate. Just like everyone else i associate carbs with reward and good times. Cakes at birthday parties, ice cream when i was good, chocolate during my TOM.

My struggle has never been eating ZC or VLC because of how it physically makes me feel, or because it is boring or anything like that it has simply been because of the social pressure to conform!!!!!!

I love these kinds of discussion....so healthy and so fun!!!! NO flames here just opposing views!!!

[hummingbird11]

Very well-said

I too, enjoy this "luxury" of having complete control as my Hubby is 100% supportive of the way we began to eat almost 2 years ago. He lost 20 lbs (too) and says he's never felt better. (I think he's a little too thin now; but it's his body)

I really don't think we'll ever go back to eating crap carbs or anything white. Not now that we understand what it does to our bodies w/ the insulin response.

He was borderline Type 2 so that's a huge incentive. His Triglycerides are have dropped by 50%

HEY, COME ON IN HERE WHEN YOU GET THAT URGE --
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR; WE WILL "TALK YOU DOWN FROM THE LEDGE"

Originally Posted by LeighDear

Totally agree that lifestyle & the personal home situation is a HUGE component in success with VLC.

I adopted VLC (less than 10 carbs per day for me) about 3 weeks ago....I'm down 8 pounds and satisfied with my progress. Not an Uber-dramatic loss, but I'm 5' 8" and at 176 pounds now. My jeans are size 12, and fit comfortably. But I have size 8 jeans that I want to get back into.

BUT.....I'm single and live alone. No spouse, no kids. The food I buy is ONLY for me. No cereal, no chips, no Ice Cream, no cookies, no pasta, no canned or frozen foods....no carbs of ANY kind in my kitchen or fridge, excepting fresh veggies, Splenda, various cheeses & a few "additions" like olives & pickles...... I have complete, total and absolute control over what goes in my mouth.

It's incredibly simple if you have no other live body to accomodate. Not EASY by any means...*LOL* Some days I DESPERATELY want to drive thru KFC and mindlessly order a "Party-size" Popcorn Chicken & large side of Potato Wedges.... That's the negative flip-side.....I have NO other person to "talk me down" from the BAD FOOD ledge....

[hummingbird11]

Oh wow -- you really have done your research!
Very interesting reading; many thanks for posting that

Actually, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

Except that I feel the human body didn't need to "evolve" per se, in order to enjoy the highly beneficial phytonutrients & insoluble fiber in veggie & fruit carbs.

I feel that Caveman certainly occasionally found & enjoyed berries and other fruits (seasonally)--and ate them--along with protein & fat, they ate fruits & root veggies--so there's no reason to think we can't do so either.

Keep in mind, however, that breeding of fruit that has produced today's very sweet oranges, apples, etc -- had not occurred, so the Caveman fruits had considerably less sugar that what we find in today's fruit market.

Yes, those living along the coast ate more seafood for sure, and per the link below, had a MUCH higher protein to fat ratio.
(the 2 passages in italics immediately above/below are from the link below)

Some grass seeds were eaten, many of which were probably the precursors to today's cereal grains, but the amounts were miniscule compared to what most people eat today.

http://www.geometer.org/CaveManDiet/PaleoFood.html


However, the human body has absolutely ZERO requirements for starch carbs.

There is absolutely NOTHING in bread, cereal, potatoes, rice that we need to survive. The Whole Grain Fiber Myth is just that, a MYTH. There’s not enough insoluble fiber in most breads or cereals to make a flying flip of difference. If companies made bread & cereal products in a truly beneficial/nutritious way, it would all taste like cardboard. The only cereal that's worth eating (IF you're like me, and want to enjoy very occasional cereal) is All-Bran (Fiber One is a close 2nd; but contains aspartame).

Like you, I associate some carbs with "reward" and good times. Cakes, Pies, Donuts + my previous personal addiction to Frapps/Freddos

And for me, grain carbs are a sort of "comfort food" in times of stress OR when I don't feel well. My upset tummy wants crackers or toast or cereal -- something bland to soothe the tummy.

OK, now I'm going to quote from The Glycemic Load Diet by Dr Rob Thompson:
(because he says it better than I could; btw, this book RAWKS; very good read )

Our respective societies suffer from ingesting "toxins" (daily) that have been "sold" to us as "healthy" since the day we were born. (gosh remember all of those cereal commercials crammed down our throats while watching cartoons on TV? They are billed as Nutritious and even Fun to eat!

Anyway, the toxin we ingest is a mixture of 2 chemicals: amylase and amylopectin

These chemicals have been introduced into our food only recently in the span of human existence. But unlike the toxins you read about in the newspaper (mercury, iodine, PCB's. etc) - this one exists in our food in. frankly, toxic concentrations.

Although its effects are subtle, sometimes taking years to do its damage, it often leads to progressive disability, disease, and death. Where are we getting this toxin? Well, we make a point of adding it to nearly every meal we eat.

It's the main ingredient of bread, potatoes, rice -- and is more commonly known as STARCH.

The word "starch" comes from the Old English word sterchen, (to stiffen), which is exactly what it does to our arteries.

Most of us don't think of STARCH as a toxin because the foods that contain it are so familiar to us. We've been eating bread, potatoes, rice and cereal all of our lives, as have our parents and grandparents.

Indeed, many peeps can get away w/ eating large amounts of starch without harmful effects because they're genetically resistant to its harmful effects or have certain activity patterns (intense exercise) that protect them.

However, for those of us who are susceptible--which includes about 40% of the population--starch toxicity is a menacing reality. Consumption of amounts common in our modern diet can (as we know) lead to serious health problems like diabetes and heart disease--but not before causing years of frustrating obesity.

When we are young, our bodies can handle a lot of starch. However, as we age--esp if we have a genetic predisposition to insulin resistance--the way our body metabolizes glucose slowly changes.

Prehistoric humans ate only small amounts of starch entangled in fiber and encapsulated in impervious husks. It takes hours for the digestion tract to process such foods. So it is a shock to the human system when, instead of this occasional granule of starch, peeps began consuming cupfuls at every meal, in concentrated, rapidly digestible form.

So I AGREE with you:
Humans have NOT evolved (nor will they ever need to) to eating Crap Carps; Carbage; Grain Carbs; Starch Carbs.
We don't need ANY of that "carbage" to survive/thrive.

Originally Posted by legrandeginge

Hey hey.

Here in England behind all you guys with the time zones....

hummingbird11 thanks for your advise and concern about VLC but you really mustn't worry....i'm not blindly limiting carbs because i'm faddy or because Jenna lost a lot. I was VLC-ing long before Jenna posted her success story.

I began researching the "natural" diet for humans many years ago, i have read practically any study you can imagine and have a lot to say about the fashion, politics and economics driving what is considered healthy and what isn't.

Many of the areas i have researched have nothing to do with the multi million dollar diet industry and my reading on the subject had ranged from anthropology and evolutionism to microbiology and oncology research. I am personally convinced that the human body hasn't evolved to eat carbohydrates fully yet and that we evolved on shore lines eating mainly a very high fat and protein sea food based diet. This is why there are so many brain essential nutrients in sea food. It's just one theory but meat, fish, sea food and eggs has absolutely ALL the nutrients our bodies need, babies are born in a ketogenic state and i believe that glucose being the preferred source of energy for the human body is a fallacy.

My problem is, that whilst i have digested all the theories and the hard science, i have a human personality and am inherently (like everyone else) a social animal. So living ZC or VLC as i would wish to not necessarily just to lose weight but because i believe it is truly truly the healthiest way to live is hard. Hard because i live in a culture and society who eat masses or carbohydrate. Just like everyone else i associate carbs with reward and good times. Cakes at birthday parties, ice cream when i was good, chocolate during my TOM.

My struggle has never been eating ZC or VLC because of how it physically makes me feel, or because it is boring or anything like that it has simply been because of the social pressure to conform!!!!!!

I love these kinds of discussion....so healthy and so fun!!!! NO flames here just opposing views!!!

[babetteq]

I think the only thing I see and think 'hmm" is about the salt. The ocean-side dwelling cavemen were not the only ones with access to salt, there are salt deposits all over the world, in great variety (lakes, certain plants, salt rocks). I read a book called "Salt" It was a long view of the history of salt and it really opened my eyes to the ingenious ways humans have gotten salt out of things for hundreds of thousands of years.

The Savannah myth lives on though don't it... try talking to your average Joe... the Savannah myth is deeply entrenched... right up there with the 'whole grains' myth.

But how humans have evolved to eat really got bastardized over time. It's true and we're all dying for it now.

I eat a lot of wild food. Sometimes more than others, depending on where I'm living (city, bush). This gives me a really good idea of what is available when in our terrain (western canada) when.

Wild meat, wild greens, mushrooms, berries... greens are highly seasonal. Berries even shorter seasoned really. Although for sweetness, berries have it over almost anything else. Some are pretty bitter or tart, but things like indigenous saskatoon berry are sweet sweet sweet. However, they're around for like a month, you're competing with bears, deer, birds etc so even if you find a good stash of them, you're lucky if you get many of them. Fat is very hard to find. I don't eat offal or eyeballs though, so that might be my problem. I'm happy to supplement with butter.

I'm really loving this conversation as there is really no one around who believes me much. My mother is coming around as I send her more and more links on the science behind it (she was a nurse and is able to analyze studies). She still is not sold on the 'less roughage/never mind whole grains" but I think she'll come around. My partner thinks I'm touched in the head. I'm learnign tons from you guys too!

[hummingbird11]

Hi there, what is the Savannah Myth?

I Google'd it; but a bunch of links to stuff I don't think is relevant (to what you mean) is all that popped-up

Originally Posted by babetteq

I think the only thing I see and think 'hmm" is about the salt. The ocean-side dwelling cavemen were not the only ones with access to salt, there are salt deposits all over the world, in great variety (lakes, certain plants, salt rocks). I read a book called "Salt" It was a long view of the history of salt and it really opened my eyes to the ingenious ways humans have gotten salt out of things for hundreds of thousands of years.

The Savannah myth lives on though don't it... try talking to your average Joe... the Savannah myth is deeply entrenched... right up there with the 'whole grains' myth.

But how humans have evolved to eat really got bastardized over time. It's true and we're all dying for it now.

I eat a lot of wild food. Sometimes more than others, depending on where I'm living (city, bush). This gives me a really good idea of what is available when in our terrain (western canada) when.

Wild meat, wild greens, mushrooms, berries... greens are highly seasonal. Berries even shorter seasoned really. Although for sweetness, berries have it over almost anything else. Some are pretty bitter or tart, but things like indigenous saskatoon berry are sweet sweet sweet. However, they're around for like a month, you're competing with bears, deer, birds etc so even if you find a good stash of them, you're lucky if you get many of them. Fat is very hard to find. I don't eat offal or eyeballs though, so that might be my problem. I'm happy to supplement with butter.

I'm really loving this conversation as there is really no one around who believes me much. My mother is coming around as I send her more and more links on the science behind it (she was a nurse and is able to analyze studies). She still is not sold on the 'less roughage/never mind whole grains" but I think she'll come around. My partner thinks I'm touched in the head. I'm learnign tons from you guys too!

[2big4mysize]

Anyway, the toxin we ingest is a mixture of 2 chemicals: amylase and amylopectin

are you sure you copied that correct Hummingbird11 cause amylase is an enzyme present in all humans' saliva and pancreas. Its sole purpose is to begin the fracturing of starches into digestible sugars.

can you site a study showing it is a toxin in normal amounts consumed in fruits,grains and veggies?

I find it strange that we would be genetically programmed to make an enzyme for a compound that wasn't part of our diet as a species.

[babetteq]

I'll look for the name of the couple of books that outline it pretty well. Basically we didn't originate from the savannahs, but instead came from aquatic apes, morphing into land animals. It's a theory as well, but one that makes just a whole lot more sense.

gimme a couple days to find the books.... I lent them out and can't remember what they're called. I'll look for a linkyloo or two.


here's the wiki link anyway
Aquatic ape hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Looweewoo]

"The Monkey Puzzle" brings a little molecular anthropology into the discussion of "Savannah vs Seashore"

[Elloise]

Originally Posted by hummingbird11

I would die at that low amount; I'd just be miserable
I veggies & fruit too much to even get below 20-30 a day.

When someone says 'I donuts & cake too much to even get below 20-30 a day', the LCers say 'That's because you're carb addicted'.

When you say that, 'I veggies & fruit too much to even get below 20-30 a day', the ZCs will say 'That's because your carb addicted'.

One apple and I have to fight against the thoughts of diving into a pan of brownies. One slice of whole wheat bread and it's the same thing. And that's after attempting to SLOWLY move up the carb ladder.

At some point, you have to look at your own body and adjust. I don't care which rung fruit and wheat are on - I can't eat them, not ever.

[hummingbird11]

way2fluffy: I that your DMIL is doing OK now?

Originally Posted by way2fluffy

... to spend 6 1/2 hours in the urgent care transfer to ER with my 83 yo DMIL ...

[Nitebreez]

@babetteq.....

I'm really loving this conversation as there is really no one around who believes me much

Oh yes,..same here! This whole forum is a godsend to me, just for all the info and "moral support". I have to be away from the computer all week, but I get all this good stuff here on the weekends. Keep it all going.

[hummingbird11]

Originally Posted by Elloise

When someone says 'I donuts & cake too much to even get below 20-30 a day', the LCers say 'That's because you're carb addicted'.

When you say that, 'I veggies & fruit too much to even get below 20-30 a day', the ZCs will say 'That's because your carb addicted'.

^^^^^^

Originally Posted by Elloise

One apple and I have to fight against the thoughts of diving into a pan of brownies. One slice of whole wheat bread and it's the same thing. And that's after attempting to SLOWLY move up the carb ladder.

At some point, you have to look at your own body and adjust. I don't care which rung fruit and wheat are on - I can't eat them, not ever.

^^^^^^ U gotta learn your own body; that's for sure!

So, I guess that's part of what I was trying to express (tho not very well):

If one is fine without fruits/veggies/grains --
(doesn't miss them & doesn't feel deprived)
then by all means, VLC may be a good/wise WOE choice.

BUT if cutting fruits/veggies/grains makes one feel deprived --
VLC or ZC is not the right WOE lifestyle choice.
because if one cannot stick with it; it's no good.

I've been told (and I believe it) that:
choosing a WOE plan & sticking to it -- is more important than the WOE plan itself.

There are hordes of ways to lose weight; some work for some peeps; but not for other peeps.

That's why it's important to "listen" to our body/mind/soul --
and "learn" and "know" what's right for each of us, individually.

Until we each create a WOE plan that fits our unique lifestyle; we can't/won't stick to it.
Just because someone else has success on a certain WOE doesn't mean the rest of us will.

And the negative self-talk re: the complete BS of "Will-Power" isn't going to help - nor is it healthy

IMO, the healthy thing to do is, to think about what foods we absolutely canNOT live (happily) without; and build our WOE around that understanding/knowledge; from the ground up.

For example, I knew we would never give-up our Friday night Pizza (date night in our home for 20+ years) + I can't (don't want to) go 2 weeks without fruit (did it for 1 week; was miserable) + I love bread at breakfast ~ so I built my WOE around that understanding of myself; because I finally realized that was the only way I was ever gonna stick to any WOE plan

I'm not perfect (NOT by a long shot!) I will still give-in to my inner Homer Simpson and indulge in an occasional donut!
But I know it's not good for me; but I also know it's not THAT bad for me, either.
Because it fits within my 80/20 Rule of Eating Healthy.
(actually, I strive for 90/10 most of the time...)

BUT I'm currently challenging myself to 60 Days of no Peet's Freddos or Starbuck's Frapps
(or apple fritters or donuts, etc.)
Because I finally realize that's not gonna get me to Goal.

I miss 'em BAD; but I know they are not off my list forever, indefinitely.
I just can't have one every friggin' day (like I was doing) ~
and I've created a healthy substitute to get me over the humps.
When I'm stressed, I want SUGAR!!!!!

Today = Day 6

[Looweewoo]

Originally Posted by Elloise

I don't care which rung fruit and wheat are on - I can't eat them, not ever.

I'm there too.

Even when I do forget myself, slip and go back to what might be a more sustainable diet (for some people), it's not good:

1) Because my blood sugar suffers
2) Because I have to struggle against cravings all the time
3) Because I often fail to struggle against those cravings and binge out on Ben and Jerry's

Why go there? I might not be able to stick to VLC every day all the time for the rest of my life, but I have to try or I'm back on SAD or worse. Every day I stick to VLC is another day my extremities are not losing nerve function.

I don't want to, nor can I, struggle against the cravings every day. I don't have the emotional space to make that my life's work. And that's what I would have to do if I included the fruit and vegetables most people recommend.

And it's not like fruits and vegetables are even that good for you, the vitamin counts are low, and the phytonutrients are mostly of use to fight the sugar damage. Fruits, while one of the great pleasures of my former life, seem like nothing but sugar water to me now.

I mean it's fine if you can get away with it. But I can't. That may be difficult to understand but it's true. I appreciate those who acknowledge and support me in that. If someone's WOE is based on a weight goal or a "look" they want, then I guess they have more room to maneuver. But for me it's a critical health issue and I can't go along with notions about eating things that will kill me - just because I imagine I can't stay on plan without them.

I can't stay on plan if I'm dead either.

[legrandeginge]

Originally Posted by babetteq

I'll look for the name of the couple of books that outline it pretty well. Basically we didn't originate from the savannahs, but instead came from aquatic apes, morphing into land animals. It's a theory as well, but one that makes just a whole lot more sense.

gimme a couple days to find the books.... I lent them out and can't remember what they're called. I'll look for a linkyloo or two.


here's the wiki link anyway
Aquatic ape hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Survival of the Fattest, The Key to Human Brain Evolution. Stephen C Cunnane

Supporting the shore line hypothesis, where fat and nutrient rich foods are in ample supply and easily accessible to even young homosapiens.

The Savannah theory makes no sense. How the hell were our brains supposed to get big enough for us to invent tools, out think all the other predators and catch big prey without dying or being badly injured, when at this time we were just 3ft apes wobbling around with our newly found bipedalism and fairly small brains compared to now!!! Food would've have to have been fairly abundant and child rearing assured, for us to have afforded such energy expensive brains that took so many years of dependent infancy to develop fully!!!

I love it!! When i start reading about this stage in mankinds brain evolution and finally the penny dropped...i was like....duh!!??? OF COURSE!?? all known civilisations sprung up on river, lake and shore lines, we built ships before we even built stone houses!!!???

[Looweewoo]

Heh... "Survival of the Fattest"...

I'm a SURVIVOR!

I'm a survivor!

[legrandeginge]

Originally Posted by hummingbird11

Oh wow -- you really have done your research!

Actually, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

Except that I feel the human body didn't need to "evolve" per se, in order to enjoy the highly beneficial phytonutrients & insoluble fiber in veggie & fruit carbs.

I feel that Caveman certainly occasionally found & enjoyed berries and other fruits (seasonally)--and ate them--along with protein & fat, they ate fruits & root veggies--so there's no reason to think we can't do so either.

Keep in mind, however, that breeding of fruit that has produced today's very sweet oranges, apples, etc -- had not occurred, so the Caveman fruits had considerably less sugar that what we find in today's fruit market. [/B]

Not meaning to be oppositional....but where is the actual evidence that phytonutrients and the insoluble fiber in fruits and vegetables are highly beneficial?

Not that i dont know where you're coming from, i believed that once too, but it was a belief, i'd been told it all my life, so i believed it to be true. When i stumbled upon low carb eating and then subsequently all kinds of related science, i pretty soon realised that many of the well trodden "facts" of health were in fact speculative and not based on hard evidence.

As far as my reading has taken me, the only essential nutrients that the human body actually requires can be found in sea food and meat. I know that's controversial and flies in the face of what you, me and everyone in the world has been told our whole lives BUT i like to make informed decisions and whilst i agree at various times mankind probably did eat some root vegetables, occasional fruits etc...i'm fairly sure that they only did this when there wasn't easy access to the good stuff. As for grains, all grains contain anti-nutrients that make them either poisonous or at least unpleasant to digest for humans raw. Hence why we have to smash, bash, soak or cook them before they can be eaten. However, as we all know, when mankind stumbled upon farming and realised he could hang out in one place for longer and breed more, he produced more food, et voila, 10,000 years ago, civilisation as we know it was born. Did i mention the brain shrinkage? Only 25-33% since the advent of agriculture!? So a big no to grains and maybe not a big no to fruit and veg but our ancestors would've definitely gone for the meat or fresh fish over a carrot.

Aaaaaah this conversation is making me want to read all the literature all over again! Loving it!!

[legrandeginge]

Originally Posted by Looweewoo

Heh... "Survival of the Fattest"...

I'm a SURVIVOR!

You do make me laugh Looweewoowoo

[legrandeginge]

Originally Posted by Elloise

When someone says 'I donuts & cake too much to even get below 20-30 a day', the LCers say 'That's because you're carb addicted'.

When you say that, 'I veggies & fruit too much to even get below 20-30 a day', the ZCs will say 'That's because your carb addicted'.

One apple and I have to fight against the thoughts of diving into a pan of brownies. One slice of whole wheat bread and it's the same thing. And that's after attempting to SLOWLY move up the carb ladder.

At some point, you have to look at your own body and adjust. I don't care which rung fruit and wheat are on - I can't eat them, not ever.

Oh Elloise....my carbo soul mate?!

I had decided due to some foolish whim of mine, that i would give carb cycling a try. I thought....on my carb up days...i'll just have extra low impact carbs...extra greens, nuts, milk maybe....so i did that for one day then by day 2 of my "carb up" stage of the carb cycle the carb craving binge fueled orgie had landed....

Toast, rosti's, fish & chips, triple choc cookies, chocolate....

THAT IS WHY I FRACKING HAVE TO VLC BECAUSE I'M A CRAZY LADY AND CANNOT HANDLE MODERATION WHEN IT COMES TO CARBS!!!!!!

Now 2 days out of ketosis and the impeccable energy levels and almost super human immunity that i have in association with VLC has gone. I've got a carb hang over and i've got a runny nose/sore thoat.

Silly ginger.

[babetteq]

it is pretty funny...

I used to say that if there were some apocalyptic event and food shortages were rampant I'd win.

But seriously, it makes sense. Why would we think that the cradle of civilization would be in a mostly barren desert?

[legrandeginge]

Originally Posted by babetteq

I used to say that if there were some apocalyptic event and food shortages were rampant I'd win.

Yeah...i'd be there too, turning ferrel....like gollum from LOTR's scrabbling around in shallow water tearing into raw fish and singing to myself!

[Looweewoo]

Well, there is merit to the concept that creatures don't evolve in situations that are well suited to their current adaptations. While the places where rivers met oceans are probably the best environments for modern and semi modern humanity, without stressors which almost completely wiped out the previous, less well adapted versions, we couldn't have evolved.

"Survival of the Fittest" is a failed evolutionary model, "Survival of the survivors", whether "fit" or not, is the mathematically correct model. We are undoubtedly the progeny of a very few protohumans who just barely made it when the rest of their tribe died. If more of the tribe had survived, the unique characteristics of our ancestors would have been diluted in the broader stream of genetics.

This has nothing to say about where that might have been, whether Savannah or Seaside, but it has a lot to say about the conditions at those habitats. We nearly died.

[ny_shelly]

I'm eating <= 20 g per day. Unfortunately, I'm in that group where I can only eat an occasional 1/2 apple or forget it - binge central.

On Sunday night I ate 1 whole apple with protein. I proceeded to eat a bunch of stuff I wasn't supposed to and ate 1.5 cans of pringles and several sandwiches on Monday.

I'm not touching an apple again for awhile. Seems crazy...an apple...

Right now I am craving raisins. Forget it.
The other day I was craving pistachios. Forget it.

I have to learn my binge triggers better and eventually move up carb ladder but I have so far to go that I can't afford to take any chances. I have to be very careful about glyc index/load and food combinations. Next time it will probably be 1/4 an apple with a high fat dinner.

[hummingbird11]

Hey 2Big,

I just double-checked the book, and yes, that's exactly what Dr Rob Thompson wrote, so.....

Anyway:

True, amylase is an enzyme present in human saliva, where it begins the chemical process of digestion; the pancreas also makes amylase (alpha amylase) to hydrolyse dietary starch into di- and trisaccharides which are converted by other enzymes to glucose to supply the body with energy.

But apparently, that is not its sole use (*see below).

I might try to fund a study, but frankly (as you know), a "study" can be found to support/prove/refute almost anything. So that's not the "end all" for me, esp. when it comes to the topic of Nutrition

Besides, what is "normal" re: consumption of fruits, veggies, grains?
There's an endless myriad of debates (even this thread) on that!

Re: your comment:
I find it strange that we would be genetically programmed to make an enzyme for a compound that wasn't part of our diet as a species.

Well, I think another example of that phenomenon would be nitrites/nitrates.
Aren't those naturally present in our bodies and environment; yet exposure to them can make us sick?

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*Other Uses of AMYLASE:
(copied from Wikipedia)

Amylase enzymes are used extensively in bread making to break down complex sugars such as starch (found in flour) into simple sugars. Yeast then feeds on these simple sugars and converts it into the waste products of alcohol and CO2. This imparts flavor and causes the bread to rise. While Amylase enzymes are found naturally in yeast cells, it takes time for the yeast to produce enough of these enzymes to break down significant quantities of starch in the bread. This is the reason for long fermented doughs such as sour dough. Modern bread making techniques have included amylase enzymes (often in the form of malted barley) into bread improver thereby making the bread making process faster and more practical for commercial use.[2]

When used as a food additive Amylase has E number E1100, and may be derived from pig pancreas or mould mushroom.

Bacilliary amylase is also used in detergents to dissolve starches from fabrics.

Workers in factories that work with amylase for any of the above uses are at increased risk of occupational asthma. 5-9% of bakers have a positive skin test, and a fourth to a third of bakers with breathing problems are hypersensitive to amylase. [3]

An inhibitor of alpha-amylase called phaseolamin has been tested as a potential diet aid. [4]

Blood serum amylase may be measured for purposes of medical diagnosis. A normal concentration is in the range 21-101 U/L. A higher than normal concentration may reflect one of several medical conditions, including acute inflammation of the pancreas, macroamylasemia, perforated peptic ulcer, and mumps. Amylase may be measured in other body fluids, including urine and peritoneal fluid.

I find this all to be quite interesting ... but I also find it a little

I think I need to digest this!
(pardon the pun )

Originally Posted by 2big4mysize

are you sure you copied that correct Hummingbird11 cause amylase is an enzyme present in all humans' saliva and pancreas. Its sole purpose is to begin the fracturing of starches into digestible sugars.

can you site a study showing it is a toxin in normal amounts consumed in fruits, grains and veggies?

I find it strange that we would be genetically programmed to make an enzyme for a compound that wasn't part of our diet as a species.