Mixing carbs and fats

[Motorama]

I'm at maintenance and I'm experimenting with Atkins Carbohydrate Ladder. Eventually I think I will add whole grains back into my diet, while still maintaning a total low carb intake.

So let's say my maintenance will be 60 to 80 grams of carbs.
So a meal for me might two very fatty pieces of bacon, hollandaise sauce and 2 slices of whole wheat bread.

I have tried a meal like this before, but for some reason I instinctively felt like I was doing something dangerous, like I wasn't supposed to mix the fats from butter and bacon with the starches of bread. Maybe it's just suggestion from something I have read, but deep inside it doesn't feel right.

What do you think?
Should high fat foods be consumed only as long as the diet is extremely low in carbs and should starches be consumed only as long as high fat foods are avoided?

[scandalouslyglam]

Marking my spot. Very interested in answers, as I wonder about this myself.

[Dovelette]

DANDR says that as you climb the carb ladder and add back in carbs, you need to decrease fats.

[Motorama]

Let's say I consume 2000 calories
60 to 80 grams of carbs will be 12% to 15% of total calories as fat.
Let's say 20% to 25% of proteins

Still 60% to 70% of calories will come from fat
Such a big allotment allows for very high fat foods like pork fat, butter, heavy cream, mascarpone, lard fried pork chops. But should we?

Does saturated fats react badly to the presence of higher carb foods in the diet so that other fats should be consumed the diet is higher in carbs?

And if those percentages of fats are still too much for a diet that is still low carb but contains legumes and whole grains, what are we supposed to do, overeat on proteins?

[flatferenghi]

the more active you are, the higher amt of grams of carb you can tolerate. but, yes, the higher in carbs u go, the less fat you should have. regrettably, we cannot have it all!!! Love & Profits; FLATFERENGHI

[LustfortheMoment]

Originally Posted by Motorama

Should high fat foods be consumed only as long as the diet is extremely low in carbs ?

There's VERY strong data documenting the risks of cancer and heart disease for a long term diet incorporating highly saturated fats. Now that you've achieved maintenance, I'd definitely urge you to cut back to leaner cuts of meat and monounsaturated oils.

Good Luck,

[Teresa123]

High fat and high carbs is what got most of us fat....however, that is IMO, totally different than sausage and toast eaten within whatever calorie level works for you. I don't know what scientifically/chemically is happening when I eat sat fats with higher carb things--but I go by how I feel and my weight. Also realize that a couple of pieces of toast is really not high carb (although it might feel like that after spending a lot of time eating very low carb). I find that eating starchier things like bananas and potatoes with fat works well for me. I also eat grains but tend to stick with sprouted.

I think it is very individual but at the point of maintenance I mostly look at what makes me crave or what starts me back into old bad habits--and avoid those kinds of things. Everything else is fair game.

[Leo41]

I don't mean to sound like the food police, but a meal as you describe

"two very fatty pieces of bacon, hollandaise sauce and 2 slices of whole wheat bread"

seems incredibly lacking in sound nutrition. Those two pieces of bacon don't provide enough protein for a meal, so why not a piece of chicken or fish--or even a hamburger or small steak? And where are your vegetables? One slice of bread plus a serving of broccoli or a small salad would be a more nutritious choice.

As others have posted, raising the carbs means lowering the fat, but the goal should be sound nutrition, and I don't see that in your example menu.

[sweepthefloor]

Ive read if you are to consume carbs, dont have fat with them or protein. Just the carbs. But you can have veggies with it but still no fat.

Something about eating carbs and fat, just totally goes to fat storage.

[DorianH]

Think about your body in terms of fuel. When you are fairly low carb, your body is using fat for fuel. As you climb the carb ladder, your body will burn those carbs preferentially first then use fat once that's depleted. If you are going to be at around 60-80g carbs per day, bacon and hollandaise on that bread is going to be a recipe for weight gain, unless you are INTENSELY active and have a crazy high metabolism.

You *could* do ONE slice of bread, bacon, lots of lettuce and tomato, and a side salad or a side veggie and that would be a nice filling lunch. Or you could do two slices of LC bread or a wrap. Or skip the bacon and have chicken and hollandaise---it's all in the proportions.

[DorianH]

Originally Posted by sweepthefloor

Ive read if you are to consume carbs, dont have fat with them or protein. Just the carbs. But you can have veggies with it but still no fat.

Something about eating carbs and fat, just totally goes to fat storage.

Suzanne Somers' program is based on this premise. When she eats proteins and fats, she is VLC. When she eats pasta, the rest of the meal is very low fat. I think there is some very sound reasoning to this.

[DorianH]

Originally Posted by scandalouslyglam

Marking my spot. Very interested in answers, as I wonder about this myself.

Total threadjack; I just wanted to tell you that you look GORGEOUS in your new avi!

[Whitedov1208]

Originally Posted by sweepthefloor

Ive read if you are to consume carbs, dont have fat with them or protein. Just the carbs. But you can have veggies with it but still no fat.

Something about eating carbs and fat, just totally goes to fat storage.

IMHO: If you are insulin imbalanced, eating just carbs is just the ticket to spike up your blood sugar and insulin. Too much insulin produces within the body and then it goes to your fat cells.

I have had times when I had just carbs for breakfast and within an hour, I was in full blown hypoglycemia (ie. sweats, faint, ravenous, nausea). BTW: I am not diabetic but had gestational diabetes which is an indicator of an imbalance insulin production and sensitivity to carbs.

I have been advised if I eat carbs, to make sure I have fat and protein to absorb the carbs for SLOWER production of insulin.

The research you've done may apply to the mainstream but not people who are insulin balanced. None of the nutritional experts out there have it totally right and sadly - it is not black and white. It's very contradictory and confusing to say the least.

[Sibylle]

The idea of not mixing carbs and fat is the cornerstone of Somersizing (Suzanne Somers Program) and Montignac (the original French blueprint of the Suzanne Somers Program).

Both programs rely heavily on the principle of separating carbs/fat as they are not digested well when combined.

[DorianH]

Originally Posted by Whitedov1208

IMHO: If you are insulin imbalanced, eating just carbs is just the ticket to spike up your blood sugar and insulin. Too much insulin produces within the body and then it goes to your fat cells.

I have had times when I had just carbs for breakfast and within an hour, I was in full blown hypoglycemia (ie. sweats, faint, ravenous, nausea). BTW: I am not diabetic but had gestational diabetes which is an indicator of an imbalance insulin production and sensitivity to carbs.

I have been advised if I eat carbs, to make sure I have fat and protein to absorb the carbs for SLOWER production of insulin.

The research you've done may apply to the mainstream but not people who are insulin balanced. None of the nutritional experts out there have it totally right and sadly - it is not black and white. It's very contradictory and confusing to say the least.

Very true. I always eat protein with carbs because it slows it down, but there are some programs that separate them for reasons stated. I guess it's just like everything else- trial and error.

[homestretch]

First I did not get fat by eating fat and carbs. I got fat eating a low fat, high carb diet. Carbs are far worse for your body and heart health than fat.

That being said, when you climb the carb ladder Atkins does say to cut back on fats. He did say that a high fat, high carb diet is deadly. I personally would never eat the breakfast that you are inquiring about. It would be much better to eat a couple of eggs, with a piece of ham and one slice of whole wheat bread. Actually, I am not a fan of the whole wheat bread and would choose a small serving of berries. As you climb the carb ladder you need to begin slowly and adding in 2 pieces of whole wheat bread is kind of like jumping off a bridge. It would be wise to add 1/2 a piece of whole wheat bread for a while to see how your body will react.

[Remykins]

Your body burns carbs first, then fat.
So if you are getting enough energy from the carbs, then your body will store the bacon fat. Of course you see people eat like this all the time, pancakes with a side of bacon, eggs sausage and toast, etc. But everyone is different.

My personal favorite thing in the whole world is eggs benedict. English muffin, a meat, and sauce... however i have found that if i cut out the English muffin i am not missing anything because the flavor is from the meat and sauce.

I agree above, dont jump in too fast, i would have 1/2 a piece of toast, and add in some eggs for protein. Protein equals life to me.

[Whitedov1208]

Originally Posted by Remykins

Your body burns carbs first, then fat.
So if you are getting enough energy from the carbs, then your body will store the bacon fat. Of course you see people eat like this all the time, pancakes with a side of bacon, eggs sausage and toast, etc. But everyone is different.

My nutritional studying says your body burns in this order:

1) Alcohol
2) Carbs
3) Fat
4) Muscle

So, Remy, I think you're right that body burns carbs first - then fat.

My personal favorite thing in the whole world is eggs benedict. English muffin, a meat, and sauce... however i have found that if i cut out the English muffin i am not missing anything because the flavor is from the meat and sauce.

It's nice to have a "foundation" to lay the eggs on - how about Scrapple?

I agree above, dont jump in too fast, i would have 1/2 a piece of toast, and add in some eggs for protein. Protein equals life to me.

Agree - it is the foundation that our cells need to stay strong and reproduce.

Originally Posted by Sibylle

The idea of not mixing carbs and fat is the cornerstone of Somersizing (Suzanne Somers Program) and Montignac (the original French blueprint of the Suzanne Somers Program).

Both programs rely heavily on the principle of separating carbs/fat as they are not digested well when combined.

Not trying to be contrary to those that disagree but...Perhaps for those not insulin inbalanced. If you read up on Diabetes or Glycemic Index - you'll read something totally different. Because Suzanne Somers says so, doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.

[quote=homestretch;12111471]
That being said, when you climb the carb ladder Atkins does say to cut back on fats. He did say that a high fat, high carb diet is deadly.

Homestretch: Out of curiosity...does Dr. Atkins say that in the DANDR book or the original 1972 version? I have both books. Since I am now on Atkins OWL Phase, I need to check this out.

That being said, why is there STILL such a cultural stigma on Atkins justifying that fat is the name of the game?

[Teresa123]

Originally Posted by Leo41

I don't mean to sound like the food police, but a meal as you describe

"two very fatty pieces of bacon, hollandaise sauce and 2 slices of whole wheat bread"

seems incredibly lacking in sound nutrition.

Actually, the Dr who wrote the Optimal Diet would probably say this is a perfect breakfast. There are tons of studies, etc. that support this way of eating for optimal health. Just like you can find studies that back up just about anything. It would seem like the most important thing is what works for the individual.

Originally Posted by DorianH

If you are going to be at around 60-80g carbs per day, bacon and hollandaise on that bread is going to be a recipe for weight gain, unless you are INTENSELY active and have a crazy high metabolism.

I am not intensely active or even active at all. I eat over 2000 cals a day and around 70 net carbs. I'm not gaining weight. During the majority of my weight loss (around 200 lbs) I ate in the same calorie range or higher and around 50-60 net carbs.

I kind of think that many people misunderstand the meaning of low carb. It doesn't mean zero carbs or 20 carbs or whatever. Heck--it seems to me that Atkins meant for 20 carbs or less to be for a short period of time...a detox if you will, not for life. 60-80 carbs is very low for most people. There are some that can't tolerate anything but very low carb, but I would tend to bet that most people just believe that they can't and/or convinced themselves that they can't---not that they truly can't.

Originally Posted by Whitedov1208

[B]IMHO: If you are insulin imbalanced, eating just carbs is just the ticket to spike up your blood sugar and insulin. Too much insulin produces within the body and then it goes to your fat cells.

This is totally me as well.

Originally Posted by homestretch

He did say that a high fat, high carb diet is deadly.

I don't remember him saying that particularly, but I think that's one that just about anyone with a decent understanding of nutrition would agree with. However, is 2 slices of toast high carb?

Originally Posted by Whitedov1208

Because Suzanne Somers says so, doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.

To the OP---I think it's really important that you experiment for yourself and figure out what works for you. If things cause you to gain or have cravings, etc.--then you know what to do. I agree that adding things slowly is good--or at least that worked well for me--but you have to decide what makes the most sense for you.

As far as how the combination of high fat and some carbs that are higher than you are used to working with your body---if you are concerned then in 6 months have some blood work done.

Congratulations on being in maintenance!

[fawn]

Your biochemical individuality dictates this whole conversation. You will have to figure out what does work for you and reduced fat is never the answer. The quality of the carobhydrate is uber important as well so while you may not get away with this menu style with a wheat bread, a high quality sour or sprouted grain bread might be just fine.

Oh, and don't take the monounsaturated advice either......too much monounsaturated fat leads to weight gain as reported in a study published in the Lancet, 1994 researchers noted that the fatty acid found most prominent in fat tissue was that of monounsaturated. Middle age weight gain in the mediterranian is quite common.

[Whitedov1208]

Originally Posted by fawn

You will have to figure out what does work for you and reduced fat is never the answer.

Oh, and don't take the monounsaturated advice either......too much monounsaturated fat leads to weight gain as reported in a study published in the Lancet, 1994 researchers noted that the fatty acid found most prominent in fat tissue was that of monounsaturated. Middle age weight gain in the mediterranian is quite common.

Fawn, if reduced fat is not the answer and monounsaturated fat (olive oil, peanut oil, canola and avocado) is to be watched for weight gain, then what oils and how much do you think is reasonable for anyone wanting to lose weight?

Personally, I like olive oil and for high heat sauteeing -peanut oil, love ghee (clarified unsalted butter) used sparingly.

Canola oil - I don't trust. Alot of diet books advocate it but I have heard bad things too about it (derivative of nerve gas) when it was discovered.

Alot of conflicting reports on every food - no wonder we are messed up and having weight and health issues.

[homestretch]

Originally Posted by Teresa123

I don't remember him saying that particularly, but I think that's one that just about anyone with a decent understanding of nutrition would agree with. However, is 2 slices of toast high carb?

OK perhaps those exact words are not in the book. However, he does say that in populations that eat a traditionally high fat diet. Disease sets in when the consumption of sugar and carbs are added. I am not going to reread the book to make a point because as you stated it is common sense. I think 2 slices of whole wheat bread is quite high carb for one meal. For one I have yet to find a whole wheat bread that is suitable to eat. As Fawn stated it does really boil down to what an individual's body can handle. For me I could never eat two pieces of whole wheat at a meal without significant sugar spikes. I can actually see a difference in my body and health if I add too much fruit.

[fawn]

Linda, to make it quite simplistic, it boils down to the stability of the fat or oil. Saturated fats are the most stable in and outside of the body. Saturated fats should be the primary fat while balancing your omega 3:6 fatty acid value. This is easily accomplished by eliminating vegetable oils such as corn, safflower, sunflower, soybean and canola.

While all of this may sound confusing and in this counting controlled society we reside in, I continue to discourage the counting of anything other than carbohydrates at the beginning stages of a program.

Personally, I use a combination of butter, rice bran oil, coconut oil, and olive oil. Rice bran is one of my favorites with the most positive property being gamma tocopherols, the most superior forms of vitamin E's. This was probably more information than you wanted but oh well! enjoy!

I also have to look for the information I had read somewhere that states those who consume higher levels of mono's have higher risks of breast cancer. I'll look for it today..........

[DorianH]

Originally Posted by Teresa123

I am not intensely active or even active at all. I eat over 2000 cals a day and around 70 net carbs. I'm not gaining weight. During the majority of my weight loss (around 200 lbs) I ate in the same calorie range or higher and around 50-60 net carbs.

I kind of think that many people misunderstand the meaning of low carb. It doesn't mean zero carbs or 20 carbs or whatever. Heck--it seems to me that Atkins meant for 20 carbs or less to be for a short period of time...a detox if you will, not for life. 60-80 carbs is very low for most people. There are some that can't tolerate anything but very low carb, but I would tend to bet that most people just believe that they can't and/or convinced themselves that they can't---not that they truly can't.

I am not talking about caloric intake, I am talking about mixing fats with carbs as well as the quality of those carbs.

I can easily eat 50g carbs and continue to lose, but I am eating a variety of veggies and greens, some nuts, and some dairy. I am NOT eating two slices of wheat bread. Wheat bread is the nutritive equivalent of white bread, same difference.

Whole GRAIN bread or sprouted grain bread is a whole different scenario which more people will be likely to tolerate.

However, the OP asked if bacon, hollandaise, and 2 slices of wheat bread would make a good maintenance meal, and in my opinion, they do not. Meals like that got me fat in the first place, and those types of carbs no longer have a place on my plate.

[cecekingskid]

Originally Posted by DorianH

Suzanne Somers' program is based on this premise. When she eats proteins and fats, she is VLC. When she eats pasta, the rest of the meal is very low fat. I think there is some very sound reasoning to this.

Just chiming in...I find this to be the case for me personally. I have been stalling out off and on for the past month and I think that the ratio of fat to carbs has a lot to do with it. If I stay low carb on a given day then it almost doesn't matter how much fat I have. However the minute I try to consume the same level of fat and let my carbs climb a little...boom...no loss the next day or even a slight gain. Off to check out Suzanne Somers program.....I definitely need all the help I can get with balancing this out.

[DorianH]

Originally Posted by cecekingskid

Just chiming in...I find this to be the case for me personally. I have been stalling out off and on for the past month and I think that the ratio of fat to carbs has a lot to do with it. If I stay low carb on a given day then it almost doesn't matter how much fat I have. However the minute I try to consume the same level of fat and let my carbs climb a little...boom...no loss the next day or even a slight gain. Off to check out Suzanne Somers program.....I definitely need all the help I can get with balancing this out.

It seems to work for some people. It doesn't work for me though- if I just eat carbs, it creates too many cravings and I spiral. But, for someone with normal blood sugars, maybe this approach would work in terms of weight loss. A lot of people say it's very successful- and it gives you options if you REALLY want that pasta meal.

Everyone is so different, there is no one specific formula. I bought her book ages ago and from what I remember:

Fruits are eaten alone.
Carbs are eaten low fat.
Proteins are eaten with fats.
There must be 2 hours between any meal/snack if you are switching from proteins to carbs, etc.

There's more but that's the basics of what I remember.

I think there's a thread about it here under weight loss plans.

[Teresa123]

Oh yeah--I did get focused on carbs/cals there and not fats. Yes--I eat very high fat. I keep proteins low--trying for 60 grams from all sources but usually end up in the 70-80ish range. Everything else is fat.

As far as the OP's question, I don't think she was looking for a critique on her menu choices--but on the combo of fat and and carbs.

What do you think?
Should high fat foods be consumed only as long as the diet is extremely low in carbs and should starches be consumed only as long as high fat foods are avoided?

As far as what works for her, that is highly individual, and IMO something that only she can truly figure out for herself.

[cecekingskid]

Originally Posted by DorianH

It seems to work for some people. It doesn't work for me though- if I just eat carbs, it creates too many cravings and I spiral. But, for someone with normal blood sugars, maybe this approach would work in terms of weight loss. A lot of people say it's very successful- and it gives you options if you REALLY want that pasta meal.

Everyone is so different, there is no one specific formula. I bought her book ages ago and from what I remember:

Fruits are eaten alone.
Carbs are eaten low fat.
Proteins are eaten with fats.
There must be 2 hours between any meal/snack if you are switching from proteins to carbs, etc.

There's more but that's the basics of what I remember.

I think there's a thread about it here under weight loss plans.

I don't think I would adopt the plan in its entirety. Because like you, one serving of carbs for me by itself is a recipe for destruction. The cravings kick in like no tomorrow. But the principle of separating carbs, fats, etc....there may be something to that....at least for me.

[Whitedov1208]

From talking to alot of people on various diets - it seems to be a division that people do well and lose the weight.

Low Fat, High Carbs - A man I know loss 100 lbs on this. He says this is the only way for him. He is a tall man and has loss so much that he has excess of loss belly skin that some of it was absorbed but he'll have to get surgury to get it off.

Low Carb, High Protein - Seems to fit the majority from the people I have talked to; however, hard to go long term without the pasta, breads, potatoes.

Mixed: Moderate whole grain carbs/Moderate Protein and Fat - works for people that "work out" alot. Carbs burn off for these people but they "work" for the ablilty to eat them. Some of these people do alternative carb day and low carb days.

With any WOE to lose weight - you are sacrificing something.

It depends on what foods you can't live without. What is it? Carbs or Rich Protein based foods. What diet fits more of they way you like to eat. That's the diet you want to try and then stick to it. Realize that you need to give something up and it's all a trade-off - is the payoff worth the sacrifice?

[Blood Sugar 101]

Originally Posted by Motorama

I'm at maintenance and I'm experimenting with Atkins Carbohydrate Ladder. Eventually I think I will add whole grains back into my diet, while still maintaning a total low carb intake.

So let's say my maintenance will be 60 to 80 grams of carbs.
So a meal for me might two very fatty pieces of bacon, hollandaise sauce and 2 slices of whole wheat bread.

I have tried a meal like this before, but for some reason I instinctively felt like I was doing something dangerous, like I wasn't supposed to mix the fats from butter and bacon with the starches of bread. Maybe it's just suggestion from something I have read, but deep inside it doesn't feel right.

What do you think?
Should high fat foods be consumed only as long as the diet is extremely low in carbs and should starches be consumed only as long as high fat foods are avoided?

I see Fat and Carbs as being at either end of a slider. The more Carbs the less Fat.

CARBS ---------------------------------------|---------------------FAT

or

CARBS ---|----------------------------------------------------------FAT


Sometimes I like eating a lot more carbs with a lower fat intake, because I get REALLY tired of the meat/cheese thing. But my understanding is that the more carbs you eat, the more insulin you produce and the more likely that insulin is to store the fat it finds in fat cells.

That said, you might want to read about the carefully controlled study I discuss in my current blog post which suggests that a person who is not diabetic (or prediabetic) can keep losing weight effectively eating as much as 130 g of carbs if they keep the fat pretty low.Diabetes Update